Is moderation actually a sign of wisdom?

Take a look at my sig. This right here is exactly what you mean by "The Path!" It honestly feels like we’re actually on the same page—we're just using different words to describe the exact same thing.

I wouldn't be surprised, either. That happens to me a lot. 😉

it happens to me quite often too 👍

Jack Harris3 said:Maybe the beginning and the end of a search like that... they both just circle back to the exact same spot...?

Just imagine if that were actually true. 😁
Whether you walk away from it or not, you always end up right back where you started. 😁
Anyway, that's my two cents on what that guy was talking about earlier. 😂

Besides, I don't really see any other way to find, reach, or achieve enlightenment or whatever you want to call it.

Actually, how would you even describe it? Since you're out there looking for it, you must have some sort of vision of what it looks like or how it should feel, right? 😁

Well, look... I truly believe that trying to pin down enlightenment with a rigid definition actually acts as a barrier against reaching it. That’s why—if you ask me—I prefer to keep my own concept of enlightenment much more fluid, limiting it simply to an "insight into the ultimate essence of all things."

People often claim that enlightenment is just a single moment... after which the world stays exactly as it was... but the truth is, we ourselves are changed forever.

Jack Harris3 said:Besides, I don't really think enlightenment is something you can just find, reach, or achieve like that.

Why's that? You actually think enlightenment isn't even a real thing?

hollowviper72 said:Well, I have one... but look, I know that trying to set any rigid definition for enlightenment just creates a barrier against reaching it. That's why I limit my own idea of enlightenment to nothing more than an "insight into the ultimate essence of all things."

They say enlightenment is a moment... after which the world stays the same... but I don't know, we change forever.

What do you mean, "ultimate"? Everything is constantly shifting, hollowviper72.

Sure; but what’s the actual point of changing things?
Well, what I’m getting at is just one single layer of the truth. I can't help but feel like it's just like that old Hobbit song says... "the road goes ever on..." 😉

I can wrap my head around that. But some kind of—well, any kind of—end? No way.

Paul Phillips4 said:Why though? You think enlightenment isn't even a thing?

hollowviper72 said:They say enlightenment is that one moment... after which the world stays exactly the same... but we change forever.

But even we don't really change. 😁
Can I try to sketch out my own version of this? 😁
You know those KitchenAid mixers? They usually have three speeds... Let's say enlightenment is that third, highest speed. Once you flip it on, the mixer itself remains the exact same machine. It was always capable of running on three... it just needed someone to click that switch over to 3.
The mixer might wish it had that third speed, or maybe it wants it... but it can't just slide that switch itself, no matter how much it searches for a way to make it happen. 😁
And if you've ever actually baked anything, you know you don't just slam it straight into high speed, otherwise everything flies all over the kitchen counter... so you start low, and then you ramp it up depending on the dough and what ingredients you're working with.
But none of that is decided by the mixer itself. 😁

hollowviper72 said:Sure; but what’s the point of changing?
Look, what I'm talking about is just one layer of the truth. I honestly think it's just like that Hobbit song says... "the road goes ever on..." 😉

Aha,

so truth has layers now?😲 😕

To be more precise—Truth itself is infinite, and there are simply different levels of realization. Yeah, that’s a better way to put it; I don't want to get caught up in unnecessary word games.

Jack Harris3:
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Can I offer my own take on this?
Think about a standard kitchen mixer you might have in your pantry. It usually has three speeds... let’s say enlightenment is that third, highest setting. Once you flip that switch, the mixer itself doesn't transform into something else. It had the capacity to run at that speed from the very beginning; it simply required someone to slide the toggle to the number 3.
The mixer might desperately want that third gear, or perhaps it wishes it possessed it, but it cannot reach out and move its own switch, no matter how much it yearns to find a way.
And if you've ever actually baked anything in your life, you know you don't just slam it into high speed immediately, or you'll end up with batter splattered all over your kitchen walls. You start slow and build momentum based on the consistency of the ingredients.
But none of those external factors decide the speed for the mixer.
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Sooooooooooooooooooooo sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.🙏 👍 😎 😁

plavva said:... because every passion needs to be restrained, according to hollowviper72.

I can't really get on board with that perspective, because I don't see why we should ever feel the need to restrain passions like playing music, painting, or traveling.
If we are talking about physical impulses, then there is a different conversation to have, since from an ethical standpoint you might need to exercise restraint sometimes, even if biologically it isn't how we are wired.

Ryan Ruiz, I’m not entirely sure if you’ve had a chance to read through this entire thread yet... there’s been quite a bit of back-and-forth and a lot of deep dives into the details, so I find myself repeating a few points. 🙂

Alright, I’d like to throw in a few extra thoughts here—hopefully, they might help clarify some of the concepts I brought up earlier, which, looking back, I think I made unnecessarily complicated.

From the Doctrine of the Mean (Confucius):

"While there are no stirrings of pleasure, anger, sorrow, or joy, the mind may be said to be in the state of EQUILIBRIUM. When those feelings have been stirred, and they act in their due degree, there ensues what may be called the state of HARMONY. This EQUILIBRIUM is the great root from which grow all the human actings in the world, and this HARMONY is the universal path which they all should pursue."

Or, just to lay it out clearly for everyone:

"When there is no stirring of pleasure, anger, sorrow, or joy, one could say the mind is in a state of EQUILIBRIUM. Once those emotions are stirred, provided they act in their proper measure, we reach what can be described as a state of HARMONY. This EQUILIBRIUM serves as the profound root from which all human actions in this world spring, and this HARMONY represents the universal path that all should strive to follow."

So, really, it's vital that our journey stems from EQUILIBRIUM and lives within HARMONY. A balanced person doesn't just suppress their emotions—that's not it at all—nor do they let those emotions rip them right out of their roots.

Chung-nî said, "The Superior man embodies The course of The mean ; the mean man acts contrary to The course of The mean."

"Chung-nî said, "The Superior man embodies The course of The mean ; the mean man acts contrary to The course of The mean."

Ultimately, moderation isn't just some result of conscious, grinding effort; rather, it's something we embody with our entire being.

And what exactly is this "daily strength" supposed to be? 😁

I mean, look, it’s not like I have anything against Confucius personally, but even a kid could tell you that you’re being "harmonious" just by playing along with how someone else feels... 😁
It isn't like you didn't stumble upon this idea on your own, so why do you suddenly need Confucius to back you up? 🤔

Do you realize he didn't actually explain *how* to do it? 😂

Of course he didn't explain the "how"... so, can you tell us? Can anyone actually explain it to anyone else—besides themselves? 🙂

I’ve included these quotes here just to help illustrate some of the points I was aiming for:

-not to mention passion and moderation acting as opposing forces
-or moderation being viewed as a conscious, deliberate effort

And besides, why shouldn't we quote Confucius? Or look to the wisdom of those who came before us for a bit of grounding? 🙂

hollowviper72 said:And why shouldn't we quote Confucius? Or look for grounding in the thoughts of those who came before us? 🙂

It's because of this:

Of course he didn't say how... can you tell me how? Can anyone actually tell anyone else—besides themselves—how to do it? 🙂

😂

Because if nobody can truly tell you anything, then what's the point of even listening? 😉

I mean, obviously, you shouldn't take it all literally. You can read and quote whatever you want if it brings you joy... 🙂
The thing is, all those great sages might as well be shouting into the void, since wisdom isn't exactly contagious. 😁

Confucius is basically trying to lead the horse from the tail end. It doesn't work by creating harmony first and then doing something else while things are peaceful... instead, harmony is just the result. Everything just falls into place, kind of like how a modern satellite radio works. 😁
That famous "Middle Way" of yours isn't the starting line of the story. Why those wise guys left it out... I haven't a clue.
Maybe they just got lost in their own brilliance... 😁

hollowviper72 said:Without the search, there is no progress.

I disagree. We are—for better or worse—perhaps the only ones who have reached a level of intelligence high enough to actually be aware of our own existence, but that’s where it ends.

The meaning of life boils down to one word: living.

Mr. Pes said:Because of this:

😂

If nobody can tell you anything, why even bother listening? 😉

I mean, obviously, you shouldn't take everything so literally. You can read and quote all you want if that makes you happy. 🙂
But honestly, all those sages are just spinning their wheels because wisdom isn't exactly contagious. 😁

Confucius doesn't start by pulling the horse's tail. It doesn't work like that—where you first manufacture some artificial harmony and then try to act peacefully within it—rather, harmony is simply the result, much like how a modern digital watch just keeps perfect time on its own. 😁
Your famous "Middle Way" isn't actually the starting point of the story. Why the wise guys didn't mention that, I haven't a clue.
Maybe they just got lost in their own profoundness... 😁

Well, nobody ever claimed the Middle Way was the beginning of the whole narrative.
But you're missing the point regarding Confucius; otherwise, you wouldn't have said what you did about Harmony. He taught that Balance is the root and Harmony is the consequence. You’re essentially saying the exact same thing, yet you're insisting he's wrong. 😉

Sure, everything might just sit there like a digital watch, but even a watch stays silent if no one touches it. Does that make sense? Moderation happens naturally—it's something we embody just by existing. There's no fine-tuning required, no tightrope walking involved. Moderation is simply who you are, not something you struggle to become. If you have to try hard to be moderate, then you aren't truly moderate.

And let's be real, not every book ever written was a waste of paper. You seem to have forgotten this:

The greatest truths can be expressed in many ways; the best way to grasp the greatest truths is to view them from many different perspectives.
That's why I enjoy reading other people's thoughts on things I already understand—because I want to see that truth reflected through their lens too.

Give it a shot sometime.

It's enliiiighteniiiing... 😉