Spirituality and money

Well, since our discussion on teaching went south, let’s pivot to something else: money and its relationship with everything else.

Cash is a necessity for everyone—whether you're a deep thinker, a jokester, a religious zealot, a devout believer, an atheist, or even a hardcore Marxist. Everybody needs it.

Let's be real: trying to survive in modern America without money is basically impossible.
While some folks are scraping by on pocket change, others can blow through thousands of dollars in a heartbeat, but money remains
absolutely essential for both the pauper and the tycoon alike.

Take a look at the major world religions. One that's everywhere here in the States is the Catholic Church. It's widely considered one of the wealthiest institutions out there (Jesop:In the name of God). Of course, their coffers have taken some hits lately due to the greed of certain servants and the massive settlements they've had to pay out regarding various scandals involving misconduct.

So, let's examine the wealth—or lack thereof—within organized religion.
The Church doesn't shy away from the donations of the faithful; in fact, the collection plate moves from person to person, and every little bit helps.
Money isn't something they turn their noses up at.

However, it seems much less welcome when someone tries to pursue spirituality on their own, outside the structure of an organized religion.

There's this common assumption that you just can't mix spirituality with finances. People act like true spiritual seekers should always have empty wallets. It's as if needing God doesn't also mean having earthly needs to take care of! I mean, come on—hermits are becoming a rare breed, and most of us can't exactly move to a cave, and let's face it, yogis thrive in much different climates than we do here.

It creates this weird impression that poverty itself attracts spirituality, and that being spiritual means you can't enjoy material comfort.
But those who dedicate their entire lives to spiritual growth or helping others still need a way to pay the bills.

Is experiencing personal hardship really the only way to develop one's soul or figure out how to live life?

Why do we insist that anyone seeking a higher path has to be broke?

At the end of the day, it's much worse to be spiritually bankrupt than it is to be comfortably well-off.
👍

A person living within the structure of society and a family has certain obligations to uphold. However, a true sannyasin shouldn't have any contact with money whatsoever. I’ve heard accounts of sannyasins who couldn't even find sleep if someone—without their knowledge—slipped a bill under their mattress while they were already resting. It’s quite profound when you think about it. If we attempt to deconstruct economics by its very nature, we cannot simultaneously tear apart our connection with God. It is a fundamental tension; the more material wealth we accumulate, the more we become gripped by it, desperately clutching at what we possess, struggling to protect it, and obsessively striving for even more. Yet, if one chooses to live a family life, then managing resources becomes a duty toward those close to us for whom we hold responsibility.
Monasticism implies a total renunciation of the world, which is why a monk ought to have no ties to currency. Engaging in "economics," much like any other worldly pursuit, fosters a specific mental state, and for someone intended to serve as an exemplar of non-attachment, that simply isn't conducive. It isn't just about the individual; it's about the precedent set for others and the image they project to the world, even if the money itself doesn't cause them personal harm.
Consequently, even in many large ashrams where organized financial management is a practical necessity, there is a tradition of delegating these affairs to a trusted lay disciple, ensuring the monks remain entirely removed from the process. And that is to say nothing of those who live as wandering sannyasins, sadhus, hermits, or avaduthes.
The truth is that, formally, there is no such thing as personal ownership among the monastics within the Church. I believe that alone carries significant weight. Regardless of how wealthy a church might be—though whether that level of wealth is justified or even good is a separate debate entirely—I don't believe it has much to do with any specific monk. Unknown is a different matter altogether; they are permitted to maintain personal property. That is precisely why I struggle to see the purpose of celibacy for them; given their function and how they operate among the people, they essentially live as part of the world, but perhaps that is a topic for another time.

wearyowl29 said:Why is there this idea that if you're actually chasing spirituality, you have to be broke?

They really don't.
Money itself isn't the issue here... it's more about how you look at it and where it sits on your list of priorities. 🙂

wearyowl29 said:1. Money is a necessity because, in today’s world, living without it is virtually impossible.

2. However, it seems less desirable when an individual seeks spirituality on their own, outside the influence of organized religion.

3. It appears that poverty itself attracts spirituality, whereas spirituality cannot coexist with material wealth.
Those who have fully dedicated themselves to spirituality—aiming to help others in some way—must still find a means to sustain themselves.

4. Is experiencing personal lack alone enough to fuel spiritual growth and serve as a prerequisite for designing one's life?

5. Why is there this assumption that those pursuing spirituality must be poor?

1. Of course it’s possible, though certainly not in the way a "typical" member of modern society would expect. That distinction matters.

2. And what connection could organized religions—especially the Church—possibly have with true spirituality? 😕
I actually do have an answer to that question:

Organized religion (the church) acts as a graveyard, or perhaps even a landfill, for spirituality.

3. What defines material prosperity (wealth) versus poverty?
I would argue that prosperity is simply having what you need.
And you can achieve that with very little money.
I honestly feel wealthier than several acquaintances of mine who possess three or four times my net worth.
I’m not saying I lack everything; I just mean that what I *do* lack is something money simply cannot buy.

4. Poverty (or scarcity) is a state of consciousness.
The poor person isn't the one who has nothing, but rather the one who feels they are constantly lacking something.
A person with very little can be far richer than someone with abundance who remains perpetually unsatisfied.

5. To be "poor" means to be unburdened by material possessions.
Every object we own ends up capturing us and weighing us down. The more things a person accumulates, the less freedom they truly have.
In our modern capitalist system, scarcity—specifically the creation of new, artificial needs—is systematically manufactured to drive profit. People are trapped in a relentless cycle, a kind of perpetual motion machine, that we really need to escape if we want to live in true freedom. 😉

"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's"... we've all heard that teaching, but let's be real: a person doesn't just survive on bread alone. We live by every single word that comes from the mouth of God!

Honestly, it’s heartbreaking. Woe to anyone who would trade their inner Christ for a few measly pieces of silver. To me, that kind of betrayal is nothing short of spiritual suicide.

And goodness, my heart goes out to the naive souls who act like Simon Magus—thinking they can just use a stack of cash to buy the ability to summon the Holy Spirit.

😉 😁 😁 😁

I honestly believe it’s incredibly difficult to live solely on spiritual pursuits in today's world. We really need to find a healthy balance between our spiritual lives and our material needs. None of us are out here looking for hardship or living in poverty just to prove a point; doing that doesn't automatically elevate your soul. However, the reality is that so many people have found their entire sense of purpose in chasing material wealth. For them, this "mission" becomes so all-consuming that it essentially turns into a false god.

On top of that, people seem to struggle with grasping even the most basic logic—like the fact that you can't drive two cars at once or eat three lunches simultaneously...

But I suppose the golden calf is more seductive than ever today, or perhaps it's more accurate to say it appeals to a much larger crowd than it used to...😢

Spirituality and money—for many, they just don't mix. You're taught in church that there's more virtue in being poor than in being wealthy, that spiritual growth requires modesty, submission, and suffering. This mindset breeds nothing but envy and resentment, leading people to generalize that anyone with money must be a thief, while someone who can't even afford basic groceries is somehow more honest. It’s one of those lies wrapped in a kernel of truth, and it's incredibly damaging.

Money itself isn't inherently good or evil, nor does it actually change who you are; it simply amplifies what is already inside you. If you are stingy and selfish while you're struggling, you’ll only become more so once you strike it rich. The reality is that material wealth isn't the problem—it's the attachment to it. In a household struggling to make ends meet, even God goes hungry; or to put it another way, if you are constantly consumed by the stress of paying the utility bills, you simply cannot focus on spiritual practice. A person with a peaceful mind finds contentment whether they are poor or wealthy, whereas a restless mind suffers regardless of their bank balance. That is the heart of the matter. If you clutter your life with useless gadgets and luxuries that you worry about maintaining, you lack peace of mind, making all that money functionally useless because you are still suffering. Very few people possess the self-control required to avoid the trap of becoming enslaved to luxury. Once you become attached, you are essentially living in hell, because you start looking for happiness in fleeting objects instead of within yourself. When those things eventually slip away, you suffer because you identified your worth with them. This is why the rule holds true: the less you own, the more satisfied you can be. Why? Because you aren't stressed about acquiring things, you aren't preoccupied with maintaining them, and you aren't paralyzed by the fear of losing them. Living a simpler life offers much more internal peace. The true metric of success isn't the amount of cash or possessions you accumulate, but strictly the amount of joy you experience. A restless soul won't find joy even in mansions and yachts, just as a person will never find peace as long as they seek happiness in external objects.

wearyowl29 said:Well, since our discussion on teaching went south, let’s pivot to something else: money and its relationship with everything else.

Cash is a necessity for everyone—whether you're a deep thinker, a jokester, a religious zealot, a devout believer, an atheist, or even a hardcore Marxist. Everybody needs it.

Let's be real: trying to survive in modern America without money is basically impossible.
While some folks are scraping by on pocket change, others can blow through thousands of dollars in a heartbeat, but money remains
absolutely essential for both the pauper and the tycoon alike.

Take a look at the major world religions. One that's everywhere here in the States is the Catholic Church. It's widely considered one of the wealthiest institutions out there (Jesop:In the name of God). Of course, their coffers have taken some hits lately due to the greed of certain servants and the massive settlements they've had to pay out regarding various scandals involving misconduct.

So, let's examine the wealth—or lack thereof—within organized religion.
The Church doesn't shy away from the donations of the faithful; in fact, the collection plate moves from person to person, and every little bit helps.
Money isn't something they turn their noses up at.

However, it seems much less welcome when someone tries to pursue spirituality on their own, outside the structure of an organized religion.

There's this common assumption that you just can't mix spirituality with finances. People act like true spiritual seekers should always have empty wallets. It's as if needing God doesn't also mean having earthly needs to take care of! I mean, come on—hermits are becoming a rare breed, and most of us can't exactly move to a cave, and let's face it, yogis thrive in much different climates than we do here.

It creates this weird impression that poverty itself attracts spirituality, and that being spiritual means you can't enjoy material comfort.
But those who dedicate their entire lives to spiritual growth or helping others still need a way to pay the bills.

Is experiencing personal hardship really the only way to develop one's soul or figure out how to live life?

Why do we insist that anyone seeking a higher path has to be broke?

At the end of the day, it's much worse to be spiritually bankrupt than it is to be comfortably well-off.
👍

Look, Vidism, my take is actually the exact opposite—everything in mainstream spirituality revolves
around getting rich and stacking cash. It’s like people think once they fix that one connection, they’ll finally hit the jackpot. 🎉
The best-sellers out there? It's all "how to manifest abundance," "how to pull in $50k," or "be spiritual to get paid"... and honestly, people eat that crap up.

Human stupidity? Man, there’s no limit to it. You see it in the gutter and you see it in the penthouses. Lies are everywhere, man. Just don't trust anyone, not even the ones who look like they know what they're doing.

Adam Alvarez said:Spirituality and money—for many, they just don't mix. You're taught in church that there's more virtue in being poor than in being wealthy, that spiritual growth requires modesty, submission, and suffering. This mindset breeds nothing but envy and resentment, leading people to generalize that anyone with money must be a thief, while someone who can't even afford basic groceries is somehow more honest. It’s one of those lies wrapped in a kernel of truth, and it's incredibly damaging.

Money itself isn't inherently good or evil, nor does it actually change who you are; it simply amplifies what is already inside you. If you are stingy and selfish while you're struggling, you’ll only become more so once you strike it rich. The reality is that material wealth isn't the problem—it's the attachment to it. In a household struggling to make ends meet, even God goes hungry; or to put it another way, if you are constantly consumed by the stress of paying the utility bills, you simply cannot focus on spiritual practice. A person with a peaceful mind finds contentment whether they are poor or wealthy, whereas a restless mind suffers regardless of their bank balance. That is the heart of the matter. If you clutter your life with useless gadgets and luxuries that you worry about maintaining, you lack peace of mind, making all that money functionally useless because you are still suffering. Very few people possess the self-control required to avoid the trap of becoming enslaved to luxury. Once you become attached, you are essentially living in hell, because you start looking for happiness in fleeting objects instead of within yourself. When those things eventually slip away, you suffer because you identified your worth with them. This is why the rule holds true: the less you own, the more satisfied you can be. Why? Because you aren't stressed about acquiring things, you aren't preoccupied with maintaining them, and you aren't paralyzed by the fear of losing them. Living a simpler life offers much more internal peace. The true metric of success isn't the amount of cash or possessions you accumulate, but strictly the amount of joy you experience. A restless soul won't find joy even in mansions and yachts, just as a person will never find peace as long as they seek happiness in external objects.

We are here to learn, to experience, and to truly feel. Because of that, I believe that in this day and age, money can actually support one's spiritual journey, though eventually, everyone learns that money isn't the ultimate goal—it’s just a tool that helps along the way.
In order for the spirit to evolve, the physical body has to live through its experiences on this planet. And let's be honest, it's easier to navigate life with some cash in your pocket; it’s like saying a blind person doesn't benefit from a cane as much as someone with sight. Of course, it all depends on how you spend that money and how it makes you feel—how you process the experience and what lessons you take away from it.
Nothing is truly "unnecessary"; it really just comes down to what each individual needs to learn right now.
If money had no purpose, then nothing would have any point, and nothing would ever happen...🙄 but meaning is found in everything around us, including money. Even when you don't have it, meaning arrives (often accompanied by a little bit of "mindfulness" or "purpose")!😁

Cheers!

swiftcobra15 said:1. Of course it’s possible, though certainly not in the way a "typical" member of modern society would expect. That distinction matters.

2. And what connection could organized religions—especially the Church—possibly have with true spirituality? 😕
I actually do have an answer to that question:

Organized religion (the church) acts as a graveyard, or perhaps even a landfill, for spirituality.

3. What defines material prosperity (wealth) versus poverty?
I would argue that prosperity is simply having what you need.
And you can achieve that with very little money.
I honestly feel wealthier than several acquaintances of mine who possess three or four times my net worth.
I’m not saying I lack everything; I just mean that what I *do* lack is something money simply cannot buy.

4. Poverty (or scarcity) is a state of consciousness.
The poor person isn't the one who has nothing, but rather the one who feels they are constantly lacking something.
A person with very little can be far richer than someone with abundance who remains perpetually unsatisfied.

5. To be "poor" means to be unburdened by material possessions.
Every object we own ends up capturing us and weighing us down. The more things a person accumulates, the less freedom they truly have.
In our modern capitalist system, scarcity—specifically the creation of new, artificial needs—is systematically manufactured to drive profit. People are trapped in a relentless cycle, a kind of perpetual motion machine, that we really need to escape if we want to live in true freedom. 😉

I look at poverty and wealth through a different lens. In my view, there is spiritual and material wealth, as well as spiritual and material poverty. It’s a total deception when preachers claim you can't be both spiritual and wealthy... they live in marble mansions and drive luxury cars 🤔 while others struggle just to survive. I don't know about everyone else, but if I'm not materially secure—meaning I have enough for a decent, comfortable life, no debt, a roof over my head, healthcare, utilities, and good food (I'm not talking about yachts or luxury vacations)—how am I supposed to focus on spiritual growth? On the subway, I see people who look so miserable and defeated... they're just staring blankly out the window, oblivious to the world passing them by, unable to connect with loved ones or stuck in soul-crushing jobs. All of that strips away a person's dignity and makes spiritual progress nearly impossible. My goal is to reach the peak of both spiritual and material abundance... and find a way to balance them perfectly.

wearyowl29 said:Well, since our discussion on teaching went south, let’s pivot to something else: money and its relationship with everything else.

Cash is a necessity for everyone—whether you're a deep thinker, a jokester, a religious zealot, a devout believer, an atheist, or even a hardcore Marxist. Everybody needs it.

Let's be real: trying to survive in modern America without money is basically impossible.
While some folks are scraping by on pocket change, others can blow through thousands of dollars in a heartbeat, but money remains
absolutely essential for both the pauper and the tycoon alike.

Take a look at the major world religions. One that's everywhere here in the States is the Catholic Church. It's widely considered one of the wealthiest institutions out there (Jesop:In the name of God). Of course, their coffers have taken some hits lately due to the greed of certain servants and the massive settlements they've had to pay out regarding various scandals involving misconduct.

So, let's examine the wealth—or lack thereof—within organized religion.
The Church doesn't shy away from the donations of the faithful; in fact, the collection plate moves from person to person, and every little bit helps.
Money isn't something they turn their noses up at.

However, it seems much less welcome when someone tries to pursue spirituality on their own, outside the structure of an organized religion.

There's this common assumption that you just can't mix spirituality with finances. People act like true spiritual seekers should always have empty wallets. It's as if needing God doesn't also mean having earthly needs to take care of! I mean, come on—hermits are becoming a rare breed, and most of us can't exactly move to a cave, and let's face it, yogis thrive in much different climates than we do here.

It creates this weird impression that poverty itself attracts spirituality, and that being spiritual means you can't enjoy material comfort.
But those who dedicate their entire lives to spiritual growth or helping others still need a way to pay the bills.

Is experiencing personal hardship really the only way to develop one's soul or figure out how to live life?

Why do we insist that anyone seeking a higher path has to be broke?

At the end of the day, it's much worse to be spiritually bankrupt than it is to be comfortably well-off.
👍

Honestly, I’m pretty sure that logic doesn't hold water, because isn't it true that someone struggling to make ends meet is going to be way more focused on the material side of things just to keep their kids fed? Meanwhile, you've got the wealthy folks turning toward spirituality because they've realized that all that stuff doesn't actually bring them any real satisfaction... though, obviously, you're always going to find extremes on both sides, right? Like, you'll have the broke person trying to act even more destitute just to look like a bigger "saint" in the eyes of God, and then you've got the rich snobs who just obsess over amassing more cash because they think it's what gives them actual value...😁

Maybe I'm off base here, but personally, I feel like the whole idea that "spirituality and money don't mix" is a bit of a mistranslation...
Just speaking from my own experience—and look, I'm no guru—but as I've gotten older, I've found myself caring way less about the dollar amount in my bank account. When I really sit back and think about it, I could never use money to buy the things that actually mattered to me, and at the same time, money was often the very thing that caused me to lose so much... bottom line, it never truly brought anything good into my life.
So, if you ask me, a better way to put "spirituality and money don't go together" would be that once you actually experience a spiritual awakening, you suddenly realize that money doesn't actually carry any real weight in this life...

Money should be a tool, not the destination

How are you even supposed to put a price tag on soul? Money just counts what you can grab and hold. It tells you how much material stuff you can bankroll right now, but soul is what dictates how you actually experience everything around you. Not everything is just physical—take a book, for example. Sure, it’s just paper and ink, but there’s something deeper in there than just wood pulp and pigment. Soul is matter plus something way more, and money only tracks the matter. When people try to price out the soul, you get nonsense—like some painting being worth millions just because it's rare and everyone's chasing it, not because anyone actually measured the spirit inside it.

Real spiritual growth is actually quite practical. It’s about staying in sync with your circumstances, your social standing, and your day-to-day reality. Even when money is involved, truly spiritually-minded people aren't out there trying to hoard wealth. You rarely see millionaires using their massive earnings to tackle pressing societal issues; they’re just a tiny drop in the ocean compared to the vast majority of wealthy individuals who are simply stacking capital for themselves.

If the argument here is strictly about the cost of "spiritual" services—things like classes, seminars, or coaching—then the idea that everything should be free is fundamentally flawed. We don't live in a system where even our most basic survival needs are guaranteed at no cost, so expecting spiritual guidance to be free is unrealistic.
The actual quality of those services is a different conversation entirely, as is whether someone can actually grow through them. That’s a deeply personal journey, and it all hinges on one thing: whether the help provided is actually worth its price tag.

Michael Gonzalez77 said:Real spiritual growth is actually quite practical. It’s about staying in sync with your circumstances, your social standing, and your day-to-day reality. Even when money is involved, truly spiritually-minded people aren't out there trying to hoard wealth. You rarely see millionaires using their massive earnings to tackle pressing societal issues; they’re just a tiny drop in the ocean compared to the vast majority of wealthy individuals who are simply stacking capital for themselves.

If the argument here is strictly about the cost of "spiritual" services—things like classes, seminars, or coaching—then the idea that everything should be free is fundamentally flawed. We don't live in a system where even our most basic survival needs are guaranteed at no cost, so expecting spiritual guidance to be free is unrealistic.
The actual quality of those services is a different conversation entirely, as is whether someone can actually grow through them. That’s a deeply personal journey, and it all hinges on one thing: whether the help provided is actually worth its price tag.

The saddest part is watching people happily shell out cash for a night at a bar, yet they balk at spending anything on their own spiritual growth.

We pour money into fleeting distractions while refusing to invest in the things that hold the secrets of eternity.

Pacific;

2. Honestly, what does organized religion—especially the Church—have to do with actual spirituality? 😕

When I really start digging into the deeper, more soulful side of theology, man, it triggers this feeling inside me that I can’t even put into words.
Nothing feels too heavy when that happens.
It's like everything around me just suddenly makes sense... this overwhelming sense of purpose and joy that honestly just takes my breath away.
Everything and everyone starts feeling like they belong to me, like my closest kin.
It just happens, totally spontaneous.

Jeremy Scott said:The saddest part is watching people happily shell out cash for a night at a bar, yet they balk at spending anything on their own spiritual growth.

We pour money into fleeting distractions while refusing to invest in the things that hold the secrets of eternity.

I mean, maybe it's because you can't exactly pull out a credit card to buy spiritual enlightenment.

Jeremy Scott said:The saddest part is watching people happily shell out cash for a night at a bar, yet they balk at spending anything on their own spiritual growth.

We pour money into fleeting distractions while refusing to invest in the things that hold the secrets of eternity.

I get where you're coming from, but there's a massive gray area here. It's hard to judge what's actually high-quality when there are zero industry standards. Without any benchmarks or regulations, everything becomes a matter of opinion.

At the end of the day, spirituality isn't a technical skill you can just download from a lecture or master by skimming a book. Nobody's going to reach enlightenment just because they paid for some fancy Reiki workshop or a rebranding seminar. That said, having a solid guide can definitely point you in the right direction—provided that guide actually knows their stuff. And let’s be real, finding someone legitimate is tough these days when the market is flooded with "experts" who think reading two books makes them a guru. Still, everyone has to start somewhere.

frozengull2 said:Pacific;

2. Honestly, what does organized religion—especially the Church—have to do with actual spirituality? 😕

When I really start digging into the deeper, more soulful side of theology, man, it triggers this feeling inside me that I can’t even put into words.
Nothing feels too heavy when that happens.
It's like everything around me just suddenly makes sense... this overwhelming sense of purpose and joy that honestly just takes my breath away.
Everything and everyone starts feeling like they belong to me, like my closest kin.
It just happens, totally spontaneous.

I think you feel that way because it’s part of who you are, not because the church itself holds some kind of magical power over you.
If you weren't focused on faith, you'd probably find that same inspiration in plenty of other places—like out in nature, or through something like Sai baba😁 and things like that.

People like you are actually pretty rare in organized religion. I'm not saying they don't exist, but if there were more people like you, the church would actually be what it's supposed to be—a real solution for most people. Unfortunately, that’s not how it works. And it isn't even the fault of the institutions; it's the people within them. Too many people show up and follow the rituals without ever actually living out the core principles.