How can we even claim our civilization is "evil" if it's the only one we know?

I mean, you lack any sort of baseline. How can you possibly claim to know anything? I see this all the time on Reddit—people just shouting, "we're trash," or "we're failures," or whatever other self-deprecating nonsense they can conjure up. They ought to stop and ask themselves if they actually possess a single shred of objective evidence to support such sweeping, baseless assertions.

How could one distinguish good from evil, assuming only one of those states exists?

How would anyone even recognize darkness as being dark, if light were the only thing that existed?

Alright, let’s dive into the good versus the bad...

Abstract concepts like "good" and "evil" aren't physical phenomena, so you can't actually touch them or turn them into matter...

It’s different from other semi-abstract ideas—take colors like red or yellow, for instance. You can actually perceive those through a medium...

Just like those colors, references are essentially imagined constructs. Everyone interprets them however they see fit... subjectivity rules.😁

Now, about civilization...

I'm curious, what’s your definition of civilization?

There have been several distinct civilizations on this planet throughout history, so comparing them is definitely possible. But if you're talking about a singular, global human civilization... then we'd have to compare us to some alien race, and that's where I disagree. I'll explain my reasoning in a bit...

Can a system ever truly analyze and grasp its own essence?

If a system is fundamentally different from us, how can it possibly understand us? It’d probably be more objective than we could ever be about ourselves.

Bobba Fett said:I honestly think you're missing the point here.

😕
Of course we have a reference point: LIFE itself.
The way our society is headed feels almost suicidal—it's fundamentally anti-life.
Life in general, and human life specifically, is the only true metric I recognize. Everything else is just noise. 😉

Bobba Fett said:I mean, you lack a baseline. How can you actually know? I see this all over Reddit—people claiming "we’re trash" or "we’re failures," without ever stopping to ask if they have any actual, objective proof to back up such sweeping statements.

How could we distinguish good from evil if there were only one option?

How would we even know darkness is dark if light didn't exist?

When I say the human race is stupid, it's based on how we're handling our own survival. It's hardly a brilliant track record. Just look at the world today; it seems like the bigger the fool, the more successful they become, and that isn't just limited to politics.

It's pretty easy to objectively see that we've ruined our own living conditions. So, calling us a bunch of geniuses feels like a stretch.

The only civilization???

Maybe, though I’ve got my doubts about that one.

But I’m a huge believer in the idea that our world has different DIMENSIONS. You see, human civilization is really just this cultural phenomenon that only looks at one tiny slice—the part we can actually see and recognize.

So, what about everything else out there?

But what about the ancient civilizations that simply vanished? Take the Austin cultures, for instance. They were human beings just like us, yet their entire societal structure was fundamentally different from anything we recognize today. They lacked our advanced machinery and didn't even work with metals, yet they managed to construct monoliths and monuments that we struggle to replicate even with all our modern high-tech equipment at our disposal.

It strikes me as incredibly shortsighted how we almost entirely exclude these people from our historical narrative. It’s as if we treat them like some sort of extraterrestrial anomalies rather than our own ancestors.

burn Blue Eyes said:Let's start with the whole concept of good versus evil...

Abstract notions like "good" and "evil" aren't physical phenomena, so they can't actually be materialized...

Unlike other semi-abstract concepts—take the color red or yellow, for instance, where the medium can somehow be manifested physically...

Just as those concepts are imagined, so is any given reference... everyone explains them however suits their own whims... subjectivity rules.😁

Now, regarding civilization...

I'm not quite sure what your definition of civilization even is.

There have been several distinct civilizations on this planet... so it isn't impossible to compare them... but if you are referring to a singular, global human civilization... one that we could only truly compare to an alien civilization... then I disagree. I will elaborate on that later.

Well, that is precisely the issue! My argument is that many people attempt to apply these abstract, relative concepts—which shift depending on the reference point—to concrete terms that lack any actual reference at all. This includes the discussion on civilization in my upcoming posts.

adriatic said:😕
Of course we have it: THAT IS LIFE.
Our civilization is suicidal—it’s fundamentally anti-life.
Life in general, and human life specifically—that is the only framework I recognize. Everything else is secondary. 😉

That is true. But it also means you aren't quite right. Look, despite all the anti-life horrors human civilization has churned out, they haven't actually managed to destroy life yet. Sure, there's a possibility they could, and it's a speculation that seems disturbingly achievable if you ask me, but when you look at the mirror of history—even during those most uncomfortable moments where humanity was staring down the barrel of extinction—everything always turned out okay.

I’ve already made my point: human civilization, much like our planet, functions as an organism with its own built-in defense mechanisms. Any extreme excess will inevitably trigger a counter-effect. Take globalization, for instance—the negative side of it. The more aggressive it becomes, the stronger the anti-globalization movements will grow, eventually acting to push back against it as needed.

AxMi-24 said:When I claim the human race is fundamentally stupid, it isn't just an insult. It is a projection based on our survival trajectory. We aren't exactly showing much intellectual brilliance lately. Just look at the world today—it seems like the more incompetent a person is, the more successful they become, and that isn't even limited to politics.

It is quite easy to observe, objectively speaking, that we have systematically dismantled the very conditions required for life to thrive. So, calling us a collection of geniuses is a stretch.

In my previous post, I laid out why expecting our civilization to actually survive is a massive gamble. This issue requires much deeper scrutiny. Things aren't nearly as straightforward as they appear on the surface.

Nemruth Dagi said:The only civilization???

Perhaps, though I have my doubts.

However, I maintain a deep conviction regarding the various DIMENSIONS of our world. Human civilization is merely a cultural phenomenon—it only observes one single segment, specifically the part that remains visible and recognizable to us.

But what about the rest?

No, I was referring to that civilization which encompasses both the seen and the unseen.

Elizabeth Miller8 said:What about those ancient civilizations that just vanished? Take the Ando people, for instance. They were humans too, right? But their way of life was worlds apart from ours. They didn't have our modern tech or even basic metallurgy, yet they pulled off feats that we honestly struggle to replicate today, even with all our advanced machinery.

It’s quite curious how we tend to exclude these cultures from our historical narrative. It's almost as if we view them as some kind of extraterrestrials rather than our own ancestors.

I think you misunderstood my point. I was referring to the entirety of human civilization—everything involving humanity on this planet throughout history.

When people talk about "civilizations" in a strictly historical or regional sense, they mean one thing, and it's easy to get those terms tangled up. However, wasn't it fairly obvious from the context that I was speaking about humans in a much broader sense?

Honestly, those people trashing civilization are just a byproduct of it. They’re basically glitches—they can’t wrap their heads around how society actually works as a whole. Look, civilization isn't inherently good or bad; it's just how we, as social animals, react to everything happening around us and manage the chaos of billions of people constantly bumping into each other. These "haters" just scream and cry because they want the world to bend to them since they can't handle it themselves—all while pretending they've somehow seen through the "wickedness" of it all to feel superior. It's just a defense mechanism so they don't fall apart.

Uff!!

Donna Hernandez10 said:Those people who spit on civilization are actually its own byproduct. They’re essentially defective goods, unable to truly grasp or accept civilization as a cohesive whole. Civilization itself isn't inherently good or evil; rather, it's simply the response of a social species to the challenges of the world and the sheer complexity of billions of individuals constantly influencing one another. These "spitters" try to force civilization to bend to their whims through constant whining and shouting because they can't navigate the system themselves. At the same time, they trap themselves in this ego-driven delusion that they've somehow seen through the corruption of everything else, placing themselves above all the "evils" that supposedly make us "bad." It's nothing more than a desperate psychological defense mechanism—without it, they wouldn't be able to function at all.

Uff!!

I couldn't agree more. It’s the exact same logic we see when people rail against Washington. That government is a direct reflection of us—of the American people. Then, we act genuinely shocked when every single administration turns out to be cut from the same cloth. There's a reason the old saying goes, "A people gets the government it deserves." By that same metric, we have the civilization we deserve.

If we want to see a better civilization, we have to start by fixing ourselves first. Only then can we gradually steer society toward something better.

Richard Howard2,

I think you lack a point of reference. How can you possibly know? I see plenty of people on this forum claiming "we are trash" or "we are this" or "we are that," yet they never stop to ask if they actually have any objective, undeniable standard to back up such claims.

How could one distinguish good from evil if only one existed?

How would we even know darkness is dark if light didn't exist?

A valid question.
"How can we claim our civilization is corrupt or evil if it's the only one we know?"
You might find this jarring, but I believe the most honest answer is this: Without religion, there is no way. There is no objective benchmark.
A believer, however, doesn't face this dilemma. They believe an absolute, irrefutable standard exists—one that sits outside our civilization and our world, making it independent of us. Yet, it remains accessible because it has been revealed.

Brenda Hughes3 said:Richard Howard2,

It is an interesting question.
"How can you possibly know our civilization is flawed or evil—if we are the only ones???"
Now, you might find this unsettling, but I suspect the most honest answer is this: Without religion, there is simply no way. We lack an indisputable point of reference.
A believer doesn't run into this particular wall, though. They believe a true, unshakeable reference exists—one that sits outside our civilization and our world, making it independent of us. Yet, it remains accessible because it has been revealed (or is perceivable).

Exactly. Religion relies on the existence of an external, absolute reference—God—who functions much like the origin point in a coordinate system.

In a coordinate system, you can only define where an object is located by referencing the origin, or at the very least, by using another object as a benchmark. It is the same analogy here.

If our civilization exists within a larger coordinate system, where is that origin point? Are we the origin ourselves?

Hey, fix your signature. You're ruining the thread.

Richard Howard2 said:I mean, you don't actually have a reference point.

We don't?
Says who?

How can you even know, then? I’ve noticed plenty of people on this forum claiming things like "we are garbage" or "we are this" or "we are that," when they really ought to be asking themselves if they possess any actual, indisputable benchmark to justify such sweeping assertions.

Wait.
So now you require a reference.
If you are going to insist on dismissing every single civilization except for Western/Anglo-American ones—which is, frankly, incredibly foolish—then perhaps you should look toward the very foundations of our own society, such as the Bill of Rights or similar documents that establish our core civilized norms.

Then, take our so-called civilization, which clearly fails to follow the very rules it set for itself.

And after all that, please, do tell me: what's your point?

how would we know good from evil—if there were only one of the two?

How could anyone know darkness is dark if light existed?

And who says there is only one?
Who says there is even one thing at all?
But in this specific instance, a reference does exist; the fact that you are far too blind to perceive it is entirely your own shortcoming.

[1] Yes, blind. I suppose that explains why you're wearing that ridiculous signature.

fadedtrucker19:

If you're going to dismiss every single civilization outside of Western Europe or the US—which is incredibly foolish, by the way—then at least try using the actual foundations of our society. I'm talking about things like the Bill of Rights and other similar documents that establish our fundamental civil norms.

Look who finally showed up...

You've completely missed my point, despite me explaining it multiple times now: I was referring to civilization in the broadest sense—humanity as a whole—not treating civilizations as isolated cultural or geographic clusters throughout history. (That makes three times I've had to say this.)

My signature was designed that way on purpose; it was a joke. Naturally, I took it down once the joke stopped being funny. At least I managed to get half the forum riled up.😁

Look, Django, you managed to get under my skin too, and now whenever I see a letter like that, I just can't even bring myself to read it... it's just not worth the headache.

"if you're already going to deny every civilization except Western/Anglo-American ones—which is honestly pretty stupid—then at least look at the foundations of our own society, like the Bill of Rights and other documents that set our basic civil norms"

The Bill of Rights actually traces its roots back to the Magna Carta in England, much like almost every constitution out there in the world... well, most of them, anyway.