Gun culture and laws: USA vs. European Union

coastalgull9 said:When it comes to self-defense and the fundamental right to protect yourself, your family, and your property, I honestly feel like the USA still maintains a basic sense of common-sense justice, whereas we over here have completely lost our way.

This is an old case, but it serves as yet another reminder that the right to self-defense in our neck of the woods is a massive, ongoing issue. It’s because they’ve taken the difficulty of proving self-defense to such an absurd extreme.
Now, look, if someone just steps one inch onto your lawn, obviously you don't have the right to open fire on them. But that doesn't mean someone can jump at your throat and start beating the hell out of you without you having the right to defend yourself in kind.

The USA has a sense of basic justice? Are you actually kidding me right now?

Sure, the USA is a fantastic country in a lot of ways, but when it comes to what you're talking about, they are civilyzationally lagging behind the European Union and America by at least two or three generations.

I'm talking everything—crime rates, general public safety, prison populations, etc., etc., etc...
In my opinion, while America and the European Union struggle with certain criminals getting sentences that are way too light, we're talking about isolated incidents. Overall, the European Union system and America itself are light-years ahead of the USA. When you look at the big picture regarding crime, murder rates, and general security, their results are much better. Honestly, only a crazy person would trade the USA system for what we have going on there.

Christian Torres3 said:So someone tries to torch a house and you put them down for it? IMO, if you get lucky, they'd charge you with manslaughter.

Kyle didn't shoot Rosenbaum while he was busy torching a gas station. No, he used an extinguisher to put out that fire.

He shot Rosenbaum because he was the leader of a mob that was screaming they were going to kill him. He was retreating, trying to get away, until he got pinned against a wall and then you hear shots from that other criminal leader—Ziminski.

The second I saw the details of this—and even before that other shooting—I posted here that Kyle should be cleared under self-defense laws, even if this happened in a place like the USA, because every single element of justifiable self-defense is present here.
In both instances, Kyle never went overboard with his response—he stopped shooting the moment the threat stopped. And, I suppose, the whole point of self-defense is that the person being attacked tried to avoid the fight as long as possible. Kyle was literally running from Rosenbau as fast as he could. In the second case, they tackled him to the ground and started a full-on lynching. Either way, the attackers consciously chose to target a guy with a gun for no reason at all.

Timothy Nelson5 said:Kyle didn't shoot Rosenbaum while he was busy torching a gas station. No, he used an extinguisher to put out that fire.

He shot Rosenbaum because he was the leader of a mob that was screaming they were going to kill him. He was retreating, trying to get away, until he got pinned against a wall and then you hear shots from that other criminal leader—Ziminski.

The second I saw the details of this—and even before that other shooting—I posted here that Kyle should be cleared under self-defense laws, even if this happened in a place like the USA, because every single element of justifiable self-defense is present here.
In both instances, Kyle never went overboard with his response—he stopped shooting the moment the threat stopped. And, I suppose, the whole point of self-defense is that the person being attacked tried to avoid the fight as long as possible. Kyle was literally running from Rosenbau as fast as he could. In the second case, they tackled him to the ground and started a full-on lynching. Either way, the attackers consciously chose to target a guy with a gun for no reason at all.

True.
There is just one catch... he wouldn't even be allowed to be there in the US, let alone armed, since a minor can't get a permit for: purchasing, possessing, or carrying a firearm. Not a chance.
On top of that, even if you had a permit, you aren't allowed to carry a weapon openly unless your life is actively in danger. He was waving that rifle around the whole time, way before the attack even started. Just like everyone else who’s allowed to do it.

Honestly, laws vary so wildly from state to state within the USA, let alone when you compare the USA to the European Union, that trying to have an unbiased debate about this stuff is basically impossible.

rowdytiger13 said:True.
There is just one catch... he wouldn't even be allowed to be there in the US, let alone armed, since a minor can't get a permit for: purchasing, possessing, or carrying a firearm. Not a chance.
On top of that, even if you had a permit, you aren't allowed to carry a weapon openly unless your life is actively in danger. He was waving that rifle around the whole time, way before the attack even started. Just like everyone else who’s allowed to do it.

In the unknown, you can't try a minor for murder under any circumstances.
I was referring to the dynamics of the conflict, just trying to explain the essential elements of self-defense.

And by the way, regarding your claim that excessive force doesn't exist in the USA—it absolutely does!
Even in cases involving Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground—you can't just keep shooting an attacker once they are clearly incapacitated or running away.

unknown:

Plus, even if you actually have a permit, you aren't supposed to carry a weapon where it's visible,

That applies to criminals like unknown (on probation) and unknown (illegal weapons, also a convicted violent offender and burglar)—because the statute doesn't apply to long guns.
If you had followed the trial, you would have known the judge cut off the prosecutor's nonsense about unknown's illegal rifle by asking, "Do we need to measure the length of the rifle?" essentially questioning if they even knew what the law actually says.

unknown:

except when your life is in danger. He was waving that rifle around the whole time and long before he was even attacked.

Is that what they feed you in the unknown????
🤣
I mean, you can go watch the footage of Kyle before the confrontation yourself; at no point was he even holding the gun in his hands!!!!
Literally!

Brenda Murphy3 said:The USA has a sense of basic justice? Are you actually kidding me right now?

Sure, the USA is a fantastic country in a lot of ways, but when it comes to what you're talking about, they are civilyzationally lagging behind the European Union and America by at least two or three generations.

I'm talking everything—crime rates, general public safety, prison populations, etc., etc., etc...
In my opinion, while America and the European Union struggle with certain criminals getting sentences that are way too light, we're talking about isolated incidents. Overall, the European Union system and America itself are light-years ahead of the USA. When you look at the big picture regarding crime, murder rates, and general security, their results are much better. Honestly, only a crazy person would trade the USA system for what we have going on there.

The right to defend yourself, the right to private property, the right to your own freedom and the pursuit of happiness, and the fundamental right to not be dependent on the government for anything—those are the bedrock principles of America. It actually makes perfect sense when you think about it; for the longest time, the USA hasn't even been able to guarantee the level of security you find in Europe, and frankly, they still can't. And I'm not just talking about the inner cities; I mean those desolate stretches of the Rust Belt where you can drive for hundreds of miles without seeing a single soul, let alone a police station.

Timothy Nelson5 said:In the unknown, you can't try a minor for murder under any circumstances.
I was referring to the dynamics of the conflict, just trying to explain the essential elements of self-defense.

And by the way, regarding your claim that excessive force doesn't exist in the USA—it absolutely does!
Even in cases involving Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground—you can't just keep shooting an attacker once they are clearly incapacitated or running away.

unknown:

Plus, even if you actually have a permit, you aren't supposed to carry a weapon where it's visible,

That applies to criminals like unknown (on probation) and unknown (illegal weapons, also a convicted violent offender and burglar)—because the statute doesn't apply to long guns.
If you had followed the trial, you would have known the judge cut off the prosecutor's nonsense about unknown's illegal rifle by asking, "Do we need to measure the length of the rifle?" essentially questioning if they even knew what the law actually says.

unknown:

except when your life is in danger. He was waving that rifle around the whole time and long before he was even attacked.

Is that what they feed you in the unknown????
🤣
I mean, you can go watch the footage of Kyle before the confrontation yourself; at no point was he even holding the gun in his hands!!!!
Literally!

We're just talking past each other here.
Sure, he didn't break any USA laws. Nobody is claiming he did. We're trying to compare this to the legal system in the unknown, but it’s a lost cause...

Richard Wilson4 said:Honestly, laws vary so wildly from state to state within the USA, let alone when you compare the USA to the European Union, that trying to have an unbiased debate about this stuff is basically impossible.

Fair point.

Brenda Murphy3 said:The USA has a sense of basic justice? Are you actually kidding me right now?

Sure, the USA is a fantastic country in a lot of ways, but when it comes to what you're talking about, they are civilyzationally lagging behind the European Union and America by at least two or three generations.

I'm talking everything—crime rates, general public safety, prison populations, etc., etc., etc...
In my opinion, while America and the European Union struggle with certain criminals getting sentences that are way too light, we're talking about isolated incidents. Overall, the European Union system and America itself are light-years ahead of the USA. When you look at the big picture regarding crime, murder rates, and general security, their results are much better. Honestly, only a crazy person would trade the USA system for what we have going on there.

Of course, the American system is flawed just like any other, and frankly, it can be brutally, relentlessly harsh. But they still possess something that we seem to have lost: what I call "true, righteous justice."
When some drunken piece of trash mows down children with a car in the States, you can actually expect a life sentence for that scumbag. Meanwhile, over here, a drunk driver might get a few years, only to walk free and cynically laugh in everyone's face.

hiddeneagle98 said:The right to defend yourself, the right to private property, the right to your own freedom and the pursuit of happiness, and the fundamental right to not be dependent on the government for anything—those are the bedrock principles of America. It actually makes perfect sense when you think about it; for the longest time, the USA hasn't even been able to guarantee the level of security you find in Europe, and frankly, they still can't. And I'm not just talking about the inner cities; I mean those desolate stretches of the Rust Belt where you can drive for hundreds of miles without seeing a single soul, let alone a police station.

Look, I get that the USA has some unique quirks born out of historical circumstances, but honestly, almost none of them hold up today, or even should.

Regarding the bolded part—I think you’re dead wrong. How do you think it's impossible? Of course it's possible... just look at Australia. It's a country ten times larger than any part of the USA, yet they don't have nearly the same issues with crime, murder, and stuff like that.
It isn't a matter of capability—because it absolutely can be done—it's a matter of attitude and mindset. Carrying a weapon the way Kyle does, especially considering his age... you could find similar scenes in parts of Africa where child soldiers live under various warlords, and you see it in the USA too. That's the reality. Doesn't that tell you something? Don't you think there's something fundamentally broken in the logic and the narrative being pushed in the USA?

The "remote areas" thing has nothing to do with this... at least not in the way you're thinking. Having a rifle tucked away for backup isn't a bad idea—actually, it's pretty smart... but that is a completely different beast from what's considered normal in the USA, which some people (totally wrong) equate with freedom. That isn't freedom... not by a long shot. It's just straight-up paranoia, violence, and living in a state of constant threat (at least mentally speaking).

coastalgull9 said:Of course, the American system is flawed just like any other, and frankly, it can be brutally, relentlessly harsh. But they still possess something that we seem to have lost: what I call "true, righteous justice."
When some drunken piece of trash mows down children with a car in the States, you can actually expect a life sentence for that scumbag. Meanwhile, over here, a drunk driver might get a few years, only to walk free and cynically laugh in everyone's face.

That's true... but laws and regulations aren't built based on one-off incidents; they're built on the big picture... on the statistics.
The bottom line is that the USA could teach any country in the European Union a thing or two about protecting its own citizens and what freedom actually looks like... because being able to carry a weapon isn't just some hobby.

(And honestly, half the time in the USA, those court rulings aren't even about justice—it's just straight-up business for a judicial system that's mostly in private hands. They hand out these insanely long sentences that don't even serve a purpose... I think your perspective on this is pretty warped)

Brenda Murphy3 said:Look, I get that the USA has some unique quirks born out of historical circumstances, but honestly, almost none of them hold up today, or even should.

Regarding the bolded part—I think you’re dead wrong. How do you think it's impossible? Of course it's possible... just look at Australia. It's a country ten times larger than any part of the USA, yet they don't have nearly the same issues with crime, murder, and stuff like that.
It isn't a matter of capability—because it absolutely can be done—it's a matter of attitude and mindset. Carrying a weapon the way Kyle does, especially considering his age... you could find similar scenes in parts of Africa where child soldiers live under various warlords, and you see it in the USA too. That's the reality. Doesn't that tell you something? Don't you think there's something fundamentally broken in the logic and the narrative being pushed in the USA?

The "remote areas" thing has nothing to do with this... at least not in the way you're thinking. Having a rifle tucked away for backup isn't a bad idea—actually, it's pretty smart... but that is a completely different beast from what's considered normal in the USA, which some people (totally wrong) equate with freedom. That isn't freedom... not by a long shot. It's just straight-up paranoia, violence, and living in a state of constant threat (at least mentally speaking).

How can you say it isn't worth it? You’re looking at this through such a narrow lens, man. You really need to stop focusing on the immediate moment and start looking at the bigger picture here.

Look, it’s pretty simple when you break it down. When politicians decide they can just let their supporters run wild and act like there are no rules, they have to be prepared to deal with the reality of armed citizens standing their ground. You can't just light a fire and then act surprised when people show up with extinguishers.

The way things work around here, politics could just roll right over us whenever they feel like it, and all we’d be able to do is sit there and weep about it.

Since the very beginning of the USA, it seems like almost every single nation within the European Union has cycled through some kind of totalitarian phase at one point or another.

Those totalitarian regimes were the ones that triggered such massive, widespread suffering, and then you have the Americans rolling in like they’re some kind of cavalry sent to save the day.

Regarding what boldraven3 said—I honestly think you’re missing the mark entirely here. How can you possibly argue that it isn't possible? It absolutely is. Just look at Australia for instance; you're talking about a massive territory that's ten times the size of any single state in the USA, yet they don't deal with nearly the same level of rampant crime or homicide rates that we see over here.

The United States is an incredibly wealthy nation made up of free people, yet we’re stuck bordering a destitute and lawless Mexico, all while dragging around this heavy legacy of slavery that has morphed into modern-day ghettos. It feels like in certain areas, we've reached a breaking point where nearly 90% of the kids are growing up without a father in the picture.

It’s honestly not even about whether something is physically possible—because, let's be real, most things are if you put enough grit into it—it’s entirely about your mindset and how you choose to approach the world. It’s that fundamental attitude, that internal compass, that dictates everything.
The way Kyle carries himself and handles his weapon, especially considering how old he is, is honestly unsettling. It reminds me of the stuff you see in certain parts of Africa where child soldiers are running around and local warlords just call the shots, or even some of the more chaotic corners of the USA. It’s wild, really—you don't see this kind of thing happening anywhere else in the world.

You wouldn't see that happening in any sane corner of this country, unless of course you're looking at some chaotic wasteland where the police have completely checked out and left the streets to run wild overnight.

Once politicians finally finish turning the USA into a wasteland resembling Africa, people are going to start acting exactly how you'd expect someone to act in Africa.

I honestly can’t wrap my head around what is so difficult to grasp here. I don't understand why people feel the need to constantly take this massive, overarching issue and slice it up into these tiny, microscopic little pieces just so they can nitpick over details that wouldn't even matter if you actually looked at the big picture. It’s like watching someone try to explain the entire Grand Canyon by pointing at a single pebble and arguing about its texture—you’re missing the whole point of the landscape.

Look, I’m not even talking about the legality of the situation here. Even if they were carrying those rifles illegally, I wouldn't be sitting here condemning them for standing up to protect their own city. I went back and watched all those videos from that day, and honestly, it was pretty surreal. You had regular people just standing there, having calm conversations with the protesters, trying to explain that they weren't there to provoke anyone or shut them down—they were just there to shield their community from those agitators who were intentionally causing chaos. Even the decent protesters were distancing themselves from those thugs. It was actually quite civil; you had neighbors talking to neighbors, and if my memory serves me right, some of them even shared a hug. Everything was holding steady until Rosenbaum and that whole pack of criminals showed up and blew everything to hell.

Look, we’ve been through this before. Back when we had to defend our own neighborhoods from those waves of looters and thugs, nobody was standing around asking if they had the right paperwork to pick up a rifle. Nobody gave a damn about whether it was "legal" to grab a gun or who needed to sign off on a permit or some official authorization. When things get that desperate, the rules change. We even had kids under seventeen stepping up to protect their homes. In those moments, survival isn't about following a bureaucratic manual; it's about doing what you have to do to keep your people safe.

Doesn't that strike you as a little suspicious? I mean, really, doesn't it feel like there is something fundamentally broken at the core of the logic and the entire narrative being pushed around in the USA right now?

I can see where both sides are coming from, both the USA and the EU.

The root cause of crime in America isn't just the fact that honest citizens have access to firearms. Look, if you're actually going to ban weapons for everyday people, you better be prepared to drive crime down to near-zero levels—that goes for those "peaceful protests" and everything else too.

As it stands, we're just stripping the right to self-defense away from decent folks in a country that struggles with crime; sure, when you look at the national average, it might not seem like a total disaster, but if you pick certain neighborhoods, it’s basically the Wild West out there.

Look, geography doesn't really have anything to do with this... at least not in the way you think. Having a rifle tucked away for peace of mind isn't a bad thing—if anything, it's smart—but that's a completely different conversation than what's considered "normal" in the USA, which some people (totally wrong, in my opinion) equate with freedom. That isn't freedom... not even close... it's just pure paranoia, violence, and living in a state of constant mental threat.

But what exactly do you mean by "normal"? What are you even talking about? You don't see seventeen-year-olds walking around places like Kenosha carrying rifles. It wasn't even strictly legal; the judge just tossed the charges because of a conflict between two different laws—a gray area—and in our system, the tie usually goes to the defendant. I’d bet anything we haven't seen a teenager walking around with a rifle like this before, otherwise they would have cleared up those legal ambiguities ages ago.

I highly doubt people are just parading around with guns in everyday life. Why do you keep talking like this is some common, everyday occurrence over there?

The point is, nobody is claiming it’s normal or desirable for kids to be wandering around with guns under standard circumstances; the argument is simply that it makes sense why Kyle was carrying a rifle during those violent protests for the sake of self-defense.

Brenda Murphy3 said:No, I'm not claiming that... and if I'm following correctly, neither is unknown... where on earth are you even getting these conclusions?

Besides, the whole argument isn't even about whether what unknown did was technically legal; it's about whether his actions were actually understandable, reasonable, or just plain normal.

(You're just trying to mock people while spouting total nonsense and making comparisons that don't hold water... plus, you're insisting on things that nobody ever said, wrote, or even thought, let alone believes.

First off, you barged right into a conversation between me and Bubimir where we were discussing the USA, not Rittenhouse.

Secondly, this is what *you* actually wrote:

Brenda Murphy3 said:Of course you do, but unknown didn't do it that way... and honestly, I’m not even getting hung up on the act itself, but rather the fact that this kid was actually there, in a society where that kind of behavior is considered totally fine—which is a pretty broken set of standards if you ask me.

Besides, you don't have the right to protect your sister's stuff by wandering around the streets armed to the teeth... and nobody is going to view shooting someone in broad daylight as some sort of "extenuating circumstance" either... (and again—I think the kid is innocent, but that's not the point here).

There are certain things you just can't do in the European Union or the States—which is exactly why you live in one of the safest countries on the planet. In a place like this, a punk walking around armed like unknown would be facing serious felony charges, and his parents would be getting visits from every federal agency in town... (even though, let's face it, something like that almost never happens here...).

And that isn't exactly what we "established" in that long-winded post full of examples.

Try to follow the debate a little better. 👍

coastalgull9 said:When it comes to self-defense and the fundamental right to protect yourself, your family, and your property, I honestly feel like the USA still maintains a basic sense of common-sense justice, whereas we over here have completely lost our way.

This is an old case, but it serves as yet another reminder that the right to self-defense in our neck of the woods is a massive, ongoing issue. It’s because they’ve taken the difficulty of proving self-defense to such an absurd extreme.
Now, look, if someone just steps one inch onto your lawn, obviously you don't have the right to open fire on them. But that doesn't mean someone can jump at your throat and start beating the hell out of you without you having the right to defend yourself in kind.

I completely agree with you. We had a similar situation in the USA in Indianapolis back in 2006. Bogeski unfortunately spent more than five years fighting through the courts, while Kelava "only" got two and a half.

In certain American states, neither of them would have even been charged.

"Quote:"

ljimomoj As I was saying—though I suspect most people aren't even listening anymore—it goes like this: Sure, the American system is flawed—let’s not pretend otherwise—just like every other broken mechanism out there, and it can be brutally, relentlessly unforgiving once it sets its sights on you. But, despite all that grit and institutional failure, there is still something lingering there that we seem to have lost entirely... something I can only describe as "living, breathing, God-given justice." When some drunken piece of trash mows down kids with a car here in the USA—an absolute tragedy, mind you—we can actually expect that lowlife to face life in prison. It’s justice, plain and simple. But back home? If we were talking about those same circumstances, that sobered-up scumbag would probably just get a few years... a slap on the wrist, really... leaving them free to cynically laugh in everyone's faces. It's infuriating.

It’s absolutely maddening—truly, soul-crushing stuff. We have this drunk driver in Washington, D.C., who blew right through a red light and took the life of a young kid on a scooter... and what happens? The sentence handed down was actually *less* than the legal minimum. Less! Can you believe that? He was out on the streets again after only 15 months—just like that. And to top off this entire circus of injustice, the US government actually lost the lawsuit at the European Court of Human Rights. It’s enough to make you lose faith in the entire system—it really is. Just total, systemic failure.

It’s the same old story—the bureaucratic machine grinding away while everyone else is just trying to survive the day. I was reading this piece about how the government is tightening the screws on minimum wage laws again, and honestly? It’s just more red tape designed to make life difficult for the little guy. They talk about "social protections" and "economic stability"—please—it’s all just political theater meant to distract us from the fact that the cost of living is skyrocketing while our purchasing power stays stuck in the mud. The whole thing feels incredibly cynical. You have these policymakers sitting in their ivory towers in Washington, D.C., patting themselves on the back for passing "progressive" legislation, while the actual people working two jobs at places like Walmart can barely afford rent in a mid-sized city like Indianapolis. It’s a joke. A bad one. And don't even get me started on how this affects small businesses. Every time they hike the floor, some big conglomerate finds a way to automate or outsource, leaving the local mom-and-pop shops to pick up the tab. It’s a cycle of inefficiency that never seems to end. We keep moving in circles, pretending we’re making progress when we’re really just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Honestly, if you believe these incremental adjustments are going to solve systemic poverty, I have a bridge in New York City to sell you.

I can’t say I’m surprised—though my soul feels a little heavier for having read it—that we’re seeing yet another instance of senseless violence tearing through the fabric of our communities. It’s one of those stories that just makes you want to sit in a dark room, stare at the wall, and wonder when exactly we decided that this was the status quo. The details coming out of the investigation are, frankly, exhausting. You read these reports about local tragedies, and instead of feeling outrage, you just feel this profound, weary cynicism—this sense of "here we go again." It's the same pattern, isn't it? A flash of aggression, a life cut short, and then a long, drawn-out process of legalities and media cycles that rarely seems to touch the actual root of the problem. It’s a grim reminder of how fragile things really are. We talk about safety and order like they’re permanent fixtures of American life, but stories like this prove they’re more like thin ice—constantly cracking under the weight of human volatility. One moment everything is normal, and the next, a neighborhood is changed forever by someone else's impulse. It's maddening, truly.

hiddeneagle98 As I was saying—though I suspect most people aren't even listening anymore—it's all quite clear if you bother to look at the facts...
I simply cannot wrap my head around the idea that people—under any semblance of normal circumstances—would just be parading around with firearms like it’s nothing. Honestly, why do you insist on talking as if this is some perfectly standard, everyday occurrence over there? It’s frankly exhausting to listen to.

I'm not entirely sure if they’re just showing off—though, let's be honest, some people certainly are—but Wisconsin is an open carry state, which means folks can walk around with their firearms in plain sight if that's what they feel like doing. It's just one of those things... quite a reality of life over there.

Brenda Murphy3 said:Look, I get that the USA has some unique quirks born out of historical circumstances, but honestly, almost none of them hold up today, or even should.

Regarding the bolded part—I think you’re dead wrong. How do you think it's impossible? Of course it's possible... just look at Australia. It's a country ten times larger than any part of the USA, yet they don't have nearly the same issues with crime, murder, and stuff like that.
It isn't a matter of capability—because it absolutely can be done—it's a matter of attitude and mindset. Carrying a weapon the way Kyle does, especially considering his age... you could find similar scenes in parts of Africa where child soldiers live under various warlords, and you see it in the USA too. That's the reality. Doesn't that tell you something? Don't you think there's something fundamentally broken in the logic and the narrative being pushed in the USA?

The "remote areas" thing has nothing to do with this... at least not in the way you're thinking. Having a rifle tucked away for backup isn't a bad idea—actually, it's pretty smart... but that is a completely different beast from what's considered normal in the USA, which some people (totally wrong) equate with freedom. That isn't freedom... not by a long shot. It's just straight-up paranoia, violence, and living in a state of constant threat (at least mentally speaking).

I mean, you really don't get it at all. You haven't even made the slightest effort to try and understand. I guess... maybe there just isn't much there to work with.
Yeah, you’re totally stuck in that bubble, even if Bibimir insists you aren't. I guess. Maybe.
Even though you’re living right there, I guess you still don't quite grasp the most basic principles of Western democratic civilization—you know, the very stuff that serves as the foundation for the American Revolution. Maybe it's just a matter of perspective, I suppose.
And at the heart of defending all those liberties—well, I guess you could say it comes down to this... The whole point of the Second Amendment... I mean, it's really about the right of citizens to hold their own weapons, just to ensure there's some kind of defense against any potential attempt by the government to establish tyranny. Or maybe that's just how it's supposed to work. It’s a heavy concept, I suppose. Keeping that balance between authority and individual liberty... it's complicated.

I guess... it’s actually the first time in history where this is happening. Not just for some elite class or their private militias, but for everyone. Every single citizen finally has the right to bear arms. It’s a massive shift, really. All of us. Not just the people at the top.

Regarding what boldraven3 said—I think you’re completely off base there. How can you possibly think it's impossible? Of course it's possible... I mean, just look at Australia for instance. It's a massive territory, ten times the size of any single state in the USA, yet they don't come anywhere close to our levels of crime and homicide. I guess it just goes to show that scale isn't everything, though maybe I'm oversimplifying things.

I guess most of the USA doesn't actually deal with crime any more than you'd see in Western Europe or Australia. It’s probably exaggerated, maybe... I don't know. Just feels like that.
And that’s exactly where you find it—those rural stretches of the country where you mostly run into white Americans who just happen to own mountains of legal firearms. I guess that's just how it is out there.

It’s a grim reality when you actually sit down and look at the numbers, I suppose. About 75% of homicides in the USA take place within urban ghettos and their immediate surroundings. Then there's the demographic breakdown—roughly 53% of all murders are committed by Black Americans, with a significant portion of the remainder being Latinos. Most of this seems to boil down to short-range, illegal firearms used during gang disputes or those messy robberies tied to the drug trade and whatnot. It's just a heavy cycle, really.

So, look, I was just sitting here thinking about those crime statistics we keep seeing, and I can't help but feel a bit puzzled by the math. I mean, how does that even work? You look at the numbers and it’s all over the place. For instance, Russia supposedly has a homicide rate twice as high as the USA. Then you jump over to Brazil, where it’s five times higher, or Mexico, which is six times the rate. And if you really start digging into the chaos, Venezuela is fifteen times higher, and Honduras is eighteen times higher. It’s… well, it’s a lot to wrap your head around, I guess. Just feels like a massive, messy puzzle.

It isn’t really about whether it’s possible—because, honestly, anyone can do it—but more about the mindset behind it. I mean, seeing how Kyle carries himself, especially considering his age... it just feels off. It reminds me of those regions in Africa where you see child soldiers and various warlords running the show, and yet we see this exact same thing happening right here in the USA. Nowhere else in the world does it look quite like this. Doesn't that say something to you? I can't help but wonder if there's something fundamentally broken in the way people think, or maybe just in the entire narrative being pushed across the USA. I guess.

Well, I suppose there isn't much else to say, really. Just... wow. Or, I guess, oh my god. It’s one of those moments where you just have to sit there and process it all, though processing feels like a bit of an overstatement at this point. Everything just feels so incredibly heavy lately. Maybe that's just how it is now. I don't know.
You’re telling me I don't have a clue what I'm talking about. I guess... maybe you're right, in some sense. It's easy to feel that way sometimes, isn't it? Everything feels so fragmented lately. I suppose I just offer my perspective, however flawed it might be.
You haven't the slightest clue, I suppose.

Look, I don't think the geography of it all really matters here... at least not in the way you're suggesting. Having a rifle tucked away somewhere safe isn't necessarily a bad thing, I suppose—it might even be the smart move in this climate. But that’s a completely different issue from what we consider "normal" in the USA, which some people (quite wrongly, if you ask me) somehow equate with freedom. That isn't freedom... not by a long shot. It's just plain old paranoia, violence, and living in a state of constant threat... well, at least mentally speaking.

Let’s just recap the facts here—it seems like a lot of people miss this point. A massive majority of Americans carrying legal firearms aren't out there committing crimes; I mean, they don't even account for 10% of homicides. Most of those instances are actually just legitimate self-defense cases. The vast majority of violent crime is driven by criminals using illegal weapons... I guess that's just how the math works out.

When you look at rifles like the AR-15 that Kyle used, plus all the stuff those totalitarian types and various fascists are trying to ban... it honestly barely accounts for like 1.5% of homicides. I mean, a huge chunk of those cases are actually just self-defense situations, much like what happened with Kyle.

Brenda Murphy3 said:That's true... but laws and regulations aren't built based on one-off incidents; they're built on the big picture... on the statistics.
The bottom line is that the USA could teach any country in the European Union a thing or two about protecting its own citizens and what freedom actually looks like... because being able to carry a weapon isn't just some hobby.

(And honestly, half the time in the USA, those court rulings aren't even about justice—it's just straight-up business for a judicial system that's mostly in private hands. They hand out these insanely long sentences that don't even serve a purpose... I think your perspective on this is pretty warped)

Then what is it? A punishment? Some kind of restriction?

😁😒

Timothy Nelson5 said:I mean, you really don't get it at all. You haven't even made the slightest effort to try and understand. I guess... maybe there just isn't much there to work with.
Yeah, you’re totally stuck in that bubble, even if Bibimir insists you aren't. I guess. Maybe.
Even though you’re living right there, I guess you still don't quite grasp the most basic principles of Western democratic civilization—you know, the very stuff that serves as the foundation for the American Revolution. Maybe it's just a matter of perspective, I suppose.
And at the heart of defending all those liberties—well, I guess you could say it comes down to this... The whole point of the Second Amendment... I mean, it's really about the right of citizens to hold their own weapons, just to ensure there's some kind of defense against any potential attempt by the government to establish tyranny. Or maybe that's just how it's supposed to work. It’s a heavy concept, I suppose. Keeping that balance between authority and individual liberty... it's complicated.

I guess... it’s actually the first time in history where this is happening. Not just for some elite class or their private militias, but for everyone. Every single citizen finally has the right to bear arms. It’s a massive shift, really. All of us. Not just the people at the top.

Regarding what boldraven3 said—I think you’re completely off base there. How can you possibly think it's impossible? Of course it's possible... I mean, just look at Australia for instance. It's a massive territory, ten times the size of any single state in the USA, yet they don't come anywhere close to our levels of crime and homicide. I guess it just goes to show that scale isn't everything, though maybe I'm oversimplifying things.

I guess most of the USA doesn't actually deal with crime any more than you'd see in Western Europe or Australia. It’s probably exaggerated, maybe... I don't know. Just feels like that.
And that’s exactly where you find it—those rural stretches of the country where you mostly run into white Americans who just happen to own mountains of legal firearms. I guess that's just how it is out there.

It’s a grim reality when you actually sit down and look at the numbers, I suppose. About 75% of homicides in the USA take place within urban ghettos and their immediate surroundings. Then there's the demographic breakdown—roughly 53% of all murders are committed by Black Americans, with a significant portion of the remainder being Latinos. Most of this seems to boil down to short-range, illegal firearms used during gang disputes or those messy robberies tied to the drug trade and whatnot. It's just a heavy cycle, really.

So, look, I was just sitting here thinking about those crime statistics we keep seeing, and I can't help but feel a bit puzzled by the math. I mean, how does that even work? You look at the numbers and it’s all over the place. For instance, Russia supposedly has a homicide rate twice as high as the USA. Then you jump over to Brazil, where it’s five times higher, or Mexico, which is six times the rate. And if you really start digging into the chaos, Venezuela is fifteen times higher, and Honduras is eighteen times higher. It’s… well, it’s a lot to wrap your head around, I guess. Just feels like a massive, messy puzzle.

It isn’t really about whether it’s possible—because, honestly, anyone can do it—but more about the mindset behind it. I mean, seeing how Kyle carries himself, especially considering his age... it just feels off. It reminds me of those regions in Africa where you see child soldiers and various warlords running the show, and yet we see this exact same thing happening right here in the USA. Nowhere else in the world does it look quite like this. Doesn't that say something to you? I can't help but wonder if there's something fundamentally broken in the way people think, or maybe just in the entire narrative being pushed across the USA. I guess.

Well, I suppose there isn't much else to say, really. Just... wow. Or, I guess, oh my god. It’s one of those moments where you just have to sit there and process it all, though processing feels like a bit of an overstatement at this point. Everything just feels so incredibly heavy lately. Maybe that's just how it is now. I don't know.
You’re telling me I don't have a clue what I'm talking about. I guess... maybe you're right, in some sense. It's easy to feel that way sometimes, isn't it? Everything feels so fragmented lately. I suppose I just offer my perspective, however flawed it might be.
You haven't the slightest clue, I suppose.

Look, I don't think the geography of it all really matters here... at least not in the way you're suggesting. Having a rifle tucked away somewhere safe isn't necessarily a bad thing, I suppose—it might even be the smart move in this climate. But that’s a completely different issue from what we consider "normal" in the USA, which some people (quite wrongly, if you ask me) somehow equate with freedom. That isn't freedom... not by a long shot. It's just plain old paranoia, violence, and living in a state of constant threat... well, at least mentally speaking.

Let’s just recap the facts here—it seems like a lot of people miss this point. A massive majority of Americans carrying legal firearms aren't out there committing crimes; I mean, they don't even account for 10% of homicides. Most of those instances are actually just legitimate self-defense cases. The vast majority of violent crime is driven by criminals using illegal weapons... I guess that's just how the math works out.

When you look at rifles like the AR-15 that Kyle used, plus all the stuff those totalitarian types and various fascists are trying to ban... it honestly barely accounts for like 1.5% of homicides. I mean, a huge chunk of those cases are actually just self-defense situations, much like what happened with Kyle.

Do you honestly think someone who is at the mental level of calling Trump a "4D chess genius," writing all sorts of other similar idiocy, and obviously missing the mark completely—should be telling anyone else that they don't understand something? Ha ha... man, there's no shame and no sense left... it always goes like this, doesn't it?

Just keep going, buddy, in your little magazine-style commentary... until your next failed obsession... "Oh, I live in a fascist state, which is part of an even bigger fascist entity, and we won't let free people like you defend yourselves with weapons"... damn. What an infantile way of thinking...
Just pack up and head to the USA, arm yourself, build a bunker, and wait for the evil state to come for you... because that's exactly the kind of "smart guy" they need 🤣, but until then, we "fascists" will just live normally and freely... along with that "genius 4D chess player" who supposedly sees three moves ahead...🤣

(The American Revolution is the foundation of Western civilization? Really? Ha ha... I bet you don't even know what that means...)

Brenda Murphy3 said:Look, I get that the USA has some unique quirks born out of historical circumstances, but honestly, almost none of them hold up today, or even should.

Regarding the bolded part—I think you’re dead wrong. How do you think it's impossible? Of course it's possible... just look at Australia. It's a country ten times larger than any part of the USA, yet they don't have nearly the same issues with crime, murder, and stuff like that.
It isn't a matter of capability—because it absolutely can be done—it's a matter of attitude and mindset. Carrying a weapon the way Kyle does, especially considering his age... you could find similar scenes in parts of Africa where child soldiers live under various warlords, and you see it in the USA too. That's the reality. Doesn't that tell you something? Don't you think there's something fundamentally broken in the logic and the narrative being pushed in the USA?

The "remote areas" thing has nothing to do with this... at least not in the way you're thinking. Having a rifle tucked away for backup isn't a bad idea—actually, it's pretty smart... but that is a completely different beast from what's considered normal in the USA, which some people (totally wrong) equate with freedom. That isn't freedom... not by a long shot. It's just straight-up paranoia, violence, and living in a state of constant threat (at least mentally speaking).

Exactly.

A friend of mine lives in Texas, and she once sent me a photo of a guy she was standing behind in line at Dunkin' while waiting for her coffee. He was right in front of her, placing his order, and sticking this massive rifle out of his backpack—or whatever he was carrying—and it looked almost intentional, you know? Like he wanted everyone to see exactly what he was packing. I couldn't tell if it was an AR-15 specifically, but regardless, there was no missing the fact that the guy was armed to the teeth.

Personally, I'm glad that carrying weapons around whenever you feel like it is illegal where I live. And I highly doubt that any of those people singing loudly about "gun culture" would be thrilled to run into armed individuals in a preschool hallway while waiting for their kids, or outside a school, in a grocery store, at Starbucks, or just anywhere else...

It's just basic paranoia, which then ends up feeding into everyone else's sense of paranoia.

Timothy Nelson5 said:I mean, you really don't get it at all. You haven't even made the slightest effort to try and understand. I guess... maybe there just isn't much there to work with.
Yeah, you’re totally stuck in that bubble, even if Bibimir insists you aren't. I guess. Maybe.
Even though you’re living right there, I guess you still don't quite grasp the most basic principles of Western democratic civilization—you know, the very stuff that serves as the foundation for the American Revolution. Maybe it's just a matter of perspective, I suppose.
And at the heart of defending all those liberties—well, I guess you could say it comes down to this... The whole point of the Second Amendment... I mean, it's really about the right of citizens to hold their own weapons, just to ensure there's some kind of defense against any potential attempt by the government to establish tyranny. Or maybe that's just how it's supposed to work. It’s a heavy concept, I suppose. Keeping that balance between authority and individual liberty... it's complicated.

I guess... it’s actually the first time in history where this is happening. Not just for some elite class or their private militias, but for everyone. Every single citizen finally has the right to bear arms. It’s a massive shift, really. All of us. Not just the people at the top.

Regarding what boldraven3 said—I think you’re completely off base there. How can you possibly think it's impossible? Of course it's possible... I mean, just look at Australia for instance. It's a massive territory, ten times the size of any single state in the USA, yet they don't come anywhere close to our levels of crime and homicide. I guess it just goes to show that scale isn't everything, though maybe I'm oversimplifying things.

I guess most of the USA doesn't actually deal with crime any more than you'd see in Western Europe or Australia. It’s probably exaggerated, maybe... I don't know. Just feels like that.
And that’s exactly where you find it—those rural stretches of the country where you mostly run into white Americans who just happen to own mountains of legal firearms. I guess that's just how it is out there.

It’s a grim reality when you actually sit down and look at the numbers, I suppose. About 75% of homicides in the USA take place within urban ghettos and their immediate surroundings. Then there's the demographic breakdown—roughly 53% of all murders are committed by Black Americans, with a significant portion of the remainder being Latinos. Most of this seems to boil down to short-range, illegal firearms used during gang disputes or those messy robberies tied to the drug trade and whatnot. It's just a heavy cycle, really.

So, look, I was just sitting here thinking about those crime statistics we keep seeing, and I can't help but feel a bit puzzled by the math. I mean, how does that even work? You look at the numbers and it’s all over the place. For instance, Russia supposedly has a homicide rate twice as high as the USA. Then you jump over to Brazil, where it’s five times higher, or Mexico, which is six times the rate. And if you really start digging into the chaos, Venezuela is fifteen times higher, and Honduras is eighteen times higher. It’s… well, it’s a lot to wrap your head around, I guess. Just feels like a massive, messy puzzle.

It isn’t really about whether it’s possible—because, honestly, anyone can do it—but more about the mindset behind it. I mean, seeing how Kyle carries himself, especially considering his age... it just feels off. It reminds me of those regions in Africa where you see child soldiers and various warlords running the show, and yet we see this exact same thing happening right here in the USA. Nowhere else in the world does it look quite like this. Doesn't that say something to you? I can't help but wonder if there's something fundamentally broken in the way people think, or maybe just in the entire narrative being pushed across the USA. I guess.

Well, I suppose there isn't much else to say, really. Just... wow. Or, I guess, oh my god. It’s one of those moments where you just have to sit there and process it all, though processing feels like a bit of an overstatement at this point. Everything just feels so incredibly heavy lately. Maybe that's just how it is now. I don't know.
You’re telling me I don't have a clue what I'm talking about. I guess... maybe you're right, in some sense. It's easy to feel that way sometimes, isn't it? Everything feels so fragmented lately. I suppose I just offer my perspective, however flawed it might be.
You haven't the slightest clue, I suppose.

Look, I don't think the geography of it all really matters here... at least not in the way you're suggesting. Having a rifle tucked away somewhere safe isn't necessarily a bad thing, I suppose—it might even be the smart move in this climate. But that’s a completely different issue from what we consider "normal" in the USA, which some people (quite wrongly, if you ask me) somehow equate with freedom. That isn't freedom... not by a long shot. It's just plain old paranoia, violence, and living in a state of constant threat... well, at least mentally speaking.

Let’s just recap the facts here—it seems like a lot of people miss this point. A massive majority of Americans carrying legal firearms aren't out there committing crimes; I mean, they don't even account for 10% of homicides. Most of those instances are actually just legitimate self-defense cases. The vast majority of violent crime is driven by criminals using illegal weapons... I guess that's just how the math works out.

When you look at rifles like the AR-15 that Kyle used, plus all the stuff those totalitarian types and various fascists are trying to ban... it honestly barely accounts for like 1.5% of homicides. I mean, a huge chunk of those cases are actually just self-defense situations, much like what happened with Kyle.

It’s fairly obvious which group is pushing to restrict those rights—even here on this forum. They act like the same kind of moralizing prosecutors who seek to sue and judge everyone else.
They love to talk about how much they value democracy and civilized standards, but when cases like this arise, the mask slips completely, revealing that none of it was ever really there.

boldraven3 said:Exactly.

A friend of mine lives in Texas, and she once sent me a photo of a guy she was standing behind in line at Dunkin' while waiting for her coffee. He was right in front of her, placing his order, and sticking this massive rifle out of his backpack—or whatever he was carrying—and it looked almost intentional, you know? Like he wanted everyone to see exactly what he was packing. I couldn't tell if it was an AR-15 specifically, but regardless, there was no missing the fact that the guy was armed to the teeth.

Personally, I'm glad that carrying weapons around whenever you feel like it is illegal where I live. And I highly doubt that any of those people singing loudly about "gun culture" would be thrilled to run into armed individuals in a preschool hallway while waiting for their kids, or outside a school, in a grocery store, at Starbucks, or just anywhere else...

It's just basic paranoia, which then ends up feeding into everyone else's sense of paranoia.

What nonsense.
Guns don't kill people; people do.
If someone actually wants to settle a score or cause trouble, they can just drive a car into a crowd instead. Let's not traumatize people sitting in their vehicles now.
If you have an issue with guns, that's your problem; don't project it onto the rest of the population.

Kate Gonzalez11 said:What nonsense.
Guns don't kill people; people do.
If someone actually wants to settle a score or cause trouble, they can just drive a car into a crowd instead. Let's not traumatize people sitting in their vehicles now.
If you have an issue with guns, that's your problem; don't project it onto the rest of the population.

Which "everyone else" are we talking about here? The folks living in Europe where open carry is basically a fever dream, yet they still love to chime in on the perks of American culture on forums like this?

Comparing cars to an AR-15 is honestly beneath further discussion...