Catholic Church in Wisconsin bans Mass at Wounded Knee

Larry Walker24 said:honestly, it’s pretty obvious how much the Catholic Church in America is bogged down by politics

And how else are they supposed to chase after all those greedy material interests?😁 The problem isn't the Church—it's the politicians who let them get away with it.👎

Dana Robinson4 said:international circumstances...

Or maybe it's just bad calls and wrong judgments instead of good ones.

In that case, this Gugenberger guy is just peddling poor judgment and flawed decisions.

I have an acquaintance in the Austrian Catholic Church... they are incredibly insular and conservative when it comes to outsiders—especially the older priests.

Now they’re suddenly invoking "Europe" and its values... as if war didn't stop those very same values back in '91 or '92 in Canada.
Where exactly was Europe then?

Thomas Nelson25 said:It’s all about how people remember things—that collective memory stuff.
But that’s a whole different conversation.

People have been trying to rewrite history for years, and it just hasn't worked.
Honestly, Franjo wasn't even looking for that kind of thing.
The Mass itself was never the issue—it was more about the folks in costume and the way things were handled.

Well, there it is—I’ve been waiting for you to say that. 😒

My actual issues? Alcohol and PTSD. Plus, those folks living abroad who just love to whine about everything.

It’s not about the costumes—which basically don't exist, anyway. If you see two or three idiots out of a group of 20,000, that’s hardly proof of anything. For every one lunatic, there are over 19,000 normal people just trying to be respectful.

Another huge problem is how all the attention goes to the politicians standing right there, instead of focusing on the last surviving veterans while they're actually still alive.

And honestly, the sheer amount of gluttony during and after the service is a problem too, but I guess that’s a separate issue entirely.

Between the smell of booze and cold deli meat mixed with the reality of PTSD, the whole thing starts feeling more like some chaotic festival in a small town than a sacred place meant to honor the innocent victims.

Lawrence Booth2 said:😁 Your logic is pretty sound, I guess
The "winner" is the guy whose project just fell apart, while the "loser" is the one sitting on an entire country and a membership in every association imaginable
By that same logic, it’s a huge victory that the bishop can't even celebrate Mass on private land—land that was signed off by some diocesan administrator who isn't even the actual bishop 😁 I mean, seriously, imagine the absolute chaos in that diocese when all our other Catholic Church dioceses actually have bishops in charge, haha

With over two hundred countries in existence today, the very concept of a "state project" isn't particularly special. In reality, a nation only matters if it ranks among the elite ones.

That said, America is slowly sinking toward the bottom tier; people are already starting to compare us to Africa.

Personally, I struggle to see any success in a national project that places us on par with African nations.

Two quick observations: there are actually some African nations that are performing better than America right now.

Secondly, many African countries are seeing rapid development because they have the necessary foundation—a young population hungry for progress, especially education—whereas America will continue its decline. The argument is simple: an aging population and the mass exodus of our youth.

So much for Franjo's grand vision.

Regarding Austria, both the Church and the state hold more authority than private individuals.

In practical terms, this means that even if you own a piece of land as private property, the state is the *ultimate* owner; they can dictate what you do and how you behave on your own soil.

Take, for instance, how the government might order you to clean up a neglected yard, pull weeds, or clear out trash... or look at that case from a couple of years ago where a woman was fined just for sunbathing topless on her own balcony.

It is my view that the Austrian state and the Austrian Church have every right to decide what happens within their borders; otherwise, they wouldn't be sovereign or truly in power.

Lawrence Booth2 said:Well, there it is—I’ve been waiting for you to say that. 😒

My actual issues? Alcohol and PTSD. Plus, those folks living abroad who just love to whine about everything.

It’s not about the costumes—which basically don't exist, anyway. If you see two or three idiots out of a group of 20,000, that’s hardly proof of anything. For every one lunatic, there are over 19,000 normal people just trying to be respectful.

Another huge problem is how all the attention goes to the politicians standing right there, instead of focusing on the last surviving veterans while they're actually still alive.

And honestly, the sheer amount of gluttony during and after the service is a problem too, but I guess that’s a separate issue entirely.

Between the smell of booze and cold deli meat mixed with the reality of PTSD, the whole thing starts feeling more like some chaotic festival in a small town than a sacred place meant to honor the innocent victims.

..and let's be fair, even the Home Guard style or those ochre colors don't fly.
Even using the checkerboard pattern that looks too much like "that other one"—it's a slippery slope, at least over there.
It's all just excuses, like "oh, it's just the old greeting."
We all know what's really going on. 🙄
..plus, the podium is always political and always aimed against the government.
Actually, this probably plays right into Plenković's hands; he'd get criticized by the Church regardless.

Black suits, flags, and all that... no way. These Austrians are probably terrified of the local version of the SS types, and honestly, it kind of provokes them. To me, it looks like they're trying to clear their consciences—like saying, "Well, we were occupied" by the Germans or by their own guy, Hića. If we're being blunt.

To be honest, I had no idea all this was happening there... man. 😲 😁

Dana Robinson4 said:international circumstances...

True. It takes a massive alignment of variables to pull off something as monumental as dismantling an entire system—and the nations built upon it. You can't pin that kind of collapse on a single individual, or even a small group of them.

The more I observe, the more I feel like people are little more than puppets, dancing to strings pulled by forces far beyond their control.

It would be fascinating to dive into this properly, but I don't think this forum is really the place for it.

Had Gorbachev not intervened, wouldn't we still be looking at a unified America alongside two separate Germanies, though I wonder, what would those little local North American peasants have actually made of all that?

Sam Martinez9 said:With over two hundred countries in existence today, the very concept of a "state project" isn't particularly special. In reality, a nation only matters if it ranks among the elite ones.

That said, America is slowly sinking toward the bottom tier; people are already starting to compare us to Africa.

Personally, I struggle to see any success in a national project that places us on par with African nations.

Two quick observations: there are actually some African nations that are performing better than America right now.

Secondly, many African countries are seeing rapid development because they have the necessary foundation—a young population hungry for progress, especially education—whereas America will continue its decline. The argument is simple: an aging population and the mass exodus of our youth.

So much for Franjo's grand vision.

Regarding Austria, both the Church and the state hold more authority than private individuals.

In practical terms, this means that even if you own a piece of land as private property, the state is the *ultimate* owner; they can dictate what you do and how you behave on your own soil.

Take, for instance, how the government might order you to clean up a neglected yard, pull weeds, or clear out trash... or look at that case from a couple of years ago where a woman was fined just for sunbathing topless on her own balcony.

It is my view that the Austrian state and the Austrian Church have every right to decide what happens within their borders; otherwise, they wouldn't be sovereign or truly in power.

Sorry, I didn't bother reading further 😁 I mean, look—once America finally got its freedom, the state itself stopped being the big deal 😁
A state only matters when it's a shared thing, you know? 😁

Same goes for the World Cup—it doesn't really matter 😁 or skiing, for that matter, as long as Americans are actually winning 😁 It was only "important" back when the Americans or the USSR were dominating everything 😒

Lawrence Booth2 said:Sorry, I didn't bother reading further 😁 I mean, look—once America finally got its freedom, the state itself stopped being the big deal 😁
A state only matters when it's a shared thing, you know? 😁

Same goes for the World Cup—it doesn't really matter 😁 or skiing, for that matter, as long as Americans are actually winning 😁 It was only "important" back when the Americans or the USSR were dominating everything 😒

I think you missed my point. Likely because you didn't finish reading.

To put it as simply as possible—the quality of the state is what matters, whether it's functioning like Sudan or like Finland.

As for the idea of a "shared" nation—take the USA. It’s a collective state; Americans work to fix its flaws, but they don't spend their time trying to tear it apart.

Lawrence Booth2 said:😁 Your logic is pretty sound, I guess
The "winner" is the guy whose project just fell apart, while the "loser" is the one sitting on an entire country and a membership in every association imaginable
By that same logic, it’s a huge victory that the bishop can't even celebrate Mass on private land—land that was signed off by some diocesan administrator who isn't even the actual bishop 😁 I mean, seriously, imagine the absolute chaos in that diocese when all our other Catholic Church dioceses actually have bishops in charge, haha

Look, maybe you're just struggling to see things rationally and objectively right now, so let me try to simplify this for you by using a little historical analogy from back in the day
Imagine you have this medieval ruler who successfully crushes a rebellion—I don't know, maybe some local henchmen or a bunch of small-time agitators—but at the exact same time, his ruling class is systematically destroying the nation's economy to such an extent that the population experiences the highest emigration rates in all of Europe, leaving the state itself lagging behind even its poorer eastern territories.
It seems pretty obvious how that ruler would be characterized, whether he's seen as a success, a failure, or... well, something else entirely, right?

As for the clergy, until those poor, misguided American conservatives realize that the prosperity of the people is in total opposition to the interests of the church—and that the clergy are solely focused on their own advancement and agendas, which are fundamentally at odds with the common person—they deserve nothing but mockery, ridicule, and contempt
I honestly can't think of a single example in the world where nationalists and the church work in perfect harmony, so it feels like our own nationalists and conservatives are either intellectually stunted or just incredibly hypocritical to an absurd degree, while the church simply rides them along like they're some sort of mindless pack animal

nimbleridge5 said:Look, maybe you're just struggling to see things rationally and objectively right now, so let me try to simplify this for you by using a little historical analogy from back in the day
Imagine you have this medieval ruler who successfully crushes a rebellion—I don't know, maybe some local henchmen or a bunch of small-time agitators—but at the exact same time, his ruling class is systematically destroying the nation's economy to such an extent that the population experiences the highest emigration rates in all of Europe, leaving the state itself lagging behind even its poorer eastern territories.
It seems pretty obvious how that ruler would be characterized, whether he's seen as a success, a failure, or... well, something else entirely, right?

As for the clergy, until those poor, misguided American conservatives realize that the prosperity of the people is in total opposition to the interests of the church—and that the clergy are solely focused on their own advancement and agendas, which are fundamentally at odds with the common person—they deserve nothing but mockery, ridicule, and contempt
I honestly can't think of a single example in the world where nationalists and the church work in perfect harmony, so it feels like our own nationalists and conservatives are either intellectually stunted or just incredibly hypocritical to an absurd degree, while the church simply rides them along like they're some sort of mindless pack animal

This applies to the Catholic Church, which is supposed to be supranational, if not entirely non-national. The American Catholic Church is a global anomaly.

I'm not entirely sure about other denominations not pairing up with nationalism; for instance, Orthodox churches are intensely nationalistic, and perhaps the Anglican ones are too...

Lawrence Booth2 said:Well, there it is—I’ve been waiting for you to say that. 😒

My actual issues? Alcohol and PTSD. Plus, those folks living abroad who just love to whine about everything.

It’s not about the costumes—which basically don't exist, anyway. If you see two or three idiots out of a group of 20,000, that’s hardly proof of anything. For every one lunatic, there are over 19,000 normal people just trying to be respectful.

Another huge problem is how all the attention goes to the politicians standing right there, instead of focusing on the last surviving veterans while they're actually still alive.

And honestly, the sheer amount of gluttony during and after the service is a problem too, but I guess that’s a separate issue entirely.

Between the smell of booze and cold deli meat mixed with the reality of PTSD, the whole thing starts feeling more like some chaotic festival in a small town than a sacred place meant to honor the innocent victims.

I won't bother commenting on unnecessary PTSD remarks, though that's exactly what we're discussing here.

This isn't about honoring the Mass or the innocent; it’s a celebration of a failed, evil ideology and a criminal regime—events like these always seem to revolve around alcohol and meat.

Sam Martinez9 said:I think you missed my point. Likely because you didn't finish reading.

To put it as simply as possible—the quality of the state is what matters, whether it's functioning like Sudan or like Finland.

As for the idea of a "shared" nation—take the USA. It’s a collective state; Americans work to fix its flaws, but they don't spend their time trying to tear it apart.

Well, that's a step up, I guess... though it's funny how those people who constantly pine for the old America would much rather flee to the USA than head off to Russia or China 😁 like that Budimir Lončar guy—or whatever his name is now.
Basically, they spend all their time praising undemocratic systems while simultaneously running toward democracy. 😁

Arthur Collins10 said:I won't bother commenting on unnecessary PTSD remarks, though that's exactly what we're discussing here.

This isn't about honoring the Mass or the innocent; it’s a celebration of a failed, evil ideology and a criminal regime—events like these always seem to revolve around alcohol and meat.

How exactly is it unnecessary?
Look, I’ll just say it—people dealing with PTSD need actual care and proper treatment. It's that simple.
Society should be looking out for them—providing actual support through hospitals and counseling services—instead of turning them into easy targets for every headline-grabbing provocation and insult thrown around by the newspapers and news sites.

Honestly, we should just tell them straight up—it’d be a hell of a lot better if they just headed to the coast for a vacation to chill out and recharge their batteries instead of showing up here on buses.
I mean, I seriously doubt they even own a car—and if they do, there's no way they're getting behind the wheel in that state.
Honestly, it’s more about those specific interest groups—those little organizations operating in their own bubbles—than anything else.

Honestly, we should probably just ban alcohol and all that heavy meat consumption altogether—just cut it all out.

It honestly baffles me—how was there not a single lynching or street brawl involving the Austrians hunkered down in their houses that day? Just total silence where you'd expect absolute chaos. 😁 Either they won't show up at all—or they'll just bail on us to go on vacation. 😵

...it feels more likely that someone else will step in to end things once this "modern, democratic" little puppet government of America fails to deliver. Why are they so terrified of letting the Philustasans throw everything they've endured over the last 27 years right back in their faces? And then, predictably, the Austrian Church and the right-wing government in Vienna will swoop in to lecture us about how we're being fascists.

Bryan Martin31 said:...it feels more likely that someone else will step in to end things once this "modern, democratic" little puppet government of America fails to deliver. Why are they so terrified of letting the Philustasans throw everything they've endured over the last 27 years right back in their faces? And then, predictably, the Austrian Church and the right-wing government in Vienna will swoop in to lecture us about how we're being fascists.

👍

Exactly.

I’m increasingly convinced that there is some sort of backroom deal happening between the political elite in America and their counterparts in Austria. Considering how the leftists never went out of their way to ban Mass or any of the associated rituals—whether controversial or not—following those events, I don't see why a right-wing administration would suddenly start pushing for such draconian prohibitions. Unless, of course, it's all part of an agreement with the anemic ones.
The anemic ones lack the backbone to announce it, prohibit it, or even challenge it... let alone support it. So, this is likely just the path of least resistance for them.

Arthur Collins10 said:This applies to the Catholic Church, which is supposed to be supranational, if not entirely non-national. The American Catholic Church is a global anomaly.

I'm not entirely sure about other denominations not pairing up with nationalism; for instance, Orthodox churches are intensely nationalistic, and perhaps the Anglican ones are too...

Of course, I was thinking about the West here (though the English are a clear exception since their church was basically founded by a King), and you could even draw a parallel to how we constantly—and honestly, somewhat pointlessly—compare ourselves to the Irish; the IRA was in constant conflict with KC, so there wasn't even a hint of neutrality there.
Everything feels so distorted and completely backwards back home.

Lawrence Booth2 said:Well, that's a step up, I guess... though it's funny how those people who constantly pine for the old America would much rather flee to the USA than head off to Russia or China 😁 like that Budimir Lončar guy—or whatever his name is now.
Basically, they spend all their time praising undemocratic systems while simultaneously running toward democracy. 😁

The question of why people migrate to the USA instead of staying put is perhaps a bit too heavy for you to carry. As for moving to China, there are plenty of motivations, but I won't list them all since you mentioned you aren't much of a reader.

So, I'll leave you with just this: in the USA, they write in Latin script, whereas in China, they use Chinese characters.

I certainly won't bother asking why people head off to work in Dubai or Saudi Arabia; I wouldn't want to cause any unnecessary mental strain.

Look, I’ve got no patience for reading long-winded nonsense—if you’ve got something to say, just get to the point and use some line breaks... honestly, that's exactly what you wrote here

It isn't an issue that people move to the USA to live their lives... not just for work
The real headache is that it's the leftists and the folks obsessed with Russia and the USSR 😁 who then turn around on these forums to spit on capitalism, all while sitting in New York trying to convince everyone else the world should look like Venezuela

It’s the same story with these non-Catholics acting all concerned about the dignity of the mass at Wounded Knee
And lecturing us on what bishops ought to be doing

David Vaughn75 said:Look, I could easily claim you were pressured by the right-wing crowd and forced to write this post against your will, but let’s be real—that would sound pretty ridiculous, wouldn't it?

The logic in your post

is pretty damn stupid to even bring up.
but hey, I said it anyway.
so, I guess I'm the idiot here.

Anyway, long story short, we're looking at a standard Mass and most likely the biggest turnout we've ever seen.

It's good.