Let's talk about capitalism...

Arthur Anderson49 said:Sure, you're right, but nature isn't fair. Life isn't fair. Shit happens. No famous system out there fixes those injustices any better than capitalism does.

Systems that looked fair on paper didn't turn out to be successful, let alone actually fair. The reality is capitalism survives because it works, and once it’s fully developed, it actually provides a decent living even for people who aren't running the show—just renting their time.

Once it hits a certain level of development, capitalism gets pretty democratic in terms of spreading wealth. Plus, it's flexible—you can tweak it however you want. Chilean capitalism is nothing like American capitalism, which is totally different from Swedish capitalism—and all three work fine.

And most of the massive problems in developing nations come from broken systems, leftovers from feudalism, and straight-up corruption, not capitalism itself. Where capitalism actually follows the rules—like in Tunis or Jordan—things aren't even that bad for the people.

You’re incredible at that smooth, pseudo-rational way of justifying immorality in every part of life where you happen to be the one collecting the cream. 😛

Like how in an "ideal" marriage, your outside hookups "definitely don't bother your wife" because... well, it's not your fault... and you're trying to be discrete and not upset her with the truth about your affairs... 😬

It's the same in an "ideal" society where capitalist looting of the poor isn't (really) unfair because... that's just life, and it's not your fault you're more capable than everyone else.
And as an employer, I bet you never tell your employees exactly how much profit you're raking in off their labor... discretion is guaranteed there too; nobody has a clue how much they're being ripped off because that line item doesn't exist in the books. 😍

The whole "philosophy" of capitalism is just selfish, narcissistic self-gratification for individuals at the expense of the majority.
The most important "skill" you need to develop for "success" in this kind of society is the ability to view and treat people like objects—things you can "program" to buy whatever you want to sell them.
Marketing is basically just nicely wrapped lies, and the sheer shamelessness of these marketing tricks shows just how much they underestimate the public.

Capitalism is one big, colorful lie, and the natural resources this monster is sucking dry are running out faster than anyone can control.

It's a philosophy that says:
Leave the mess for the next generation.
Green initiatives are just another one of those marketing gimmicks.
In reality, we have no idea where we're going or why... profit is some abstraction we worship, money is the Bog we believe in, and being in its favor means reaching that stage where it works for you—where you just think of something and it's done without ever getting your hands dirty. Anyone who hasn't cracked the code of this "money spirituality" is just a sinner paying for their own failures, etc...

Hallelujah. 😁 😁

Look, I get that people have to live and navigate the system they're stuck in, but I don't get this enthusiastic applause and apologetic attitude toward capitalism. It's a straight-up monster... a beast. 666.😬

Wouldn't it be better to actually think about—and I mean *actually* consider—the valid points the other side is making instead of just brushing them off with some half-baked excuses? 😉

brain_fart said:oh yes, excellent, excellent... you people defending capitalism just because it offers a few choices must be very well educated and highly employed... but what about those individuals who weren't as lucky as you (us) and were born in less developed regions of the world where social opportunities don't allow them to obtain the same things we have (in terms of education, living conditions, etc.)? Can they choose too?

Tesla was born in a small village in one of the most underdeveloped parts of the Austro-Canadian Empire, yet that didn't stop him from quite literally changing the world. Granted, his father was educated and relatively well-off for the era, much like a local minister might be today, but he certainly didn't have "ideal" career prospects.

What actually needs to exist is a system of scholarships and support for those who possess both the drive and the potential to move forward. And to fund that, you need a surplus of wealth—something provided most effectively by a high-functioning economic system. It is significantly easier to establish social justice when you are working with a full purse rather than an empty one.

brain_fart said:no, they have to accept low wages so they can produce things for us... just look at everything you own... from your laptop to your shoes... made in xxx... where xxx inserts some third-world country... of course, it's just losers who refuse to work so they have such low wages... and so what, they can just quit the only company that wants to hire them in their town which is overcrowded with millions of people in the exact same material situation... or even better... why wouldn't some boss working for $1 a day just start his own company? be a new Nike, man... 👍

And how was life for those people before this? If they could have earned a dollar in their rural villages, they wouldn't have flocked to the factories. They moved seeking something better, because they couldn't even earn a dollar in the fields. Eventually, one of them will become a foreman and earn two dollars. They will need to operate and maintain machinery, perhaps even open a school, and then their son might work as a mechanic for five dollars. Some will even end up designing the machines themselves...

Taiwan or Korea have demonstrated quite clearly how a nation can transform from a source of cheap labor into a technological titan within twenty or thirty years. Consider how an automotive industry can evolve from merely copying old Japanese models into a global powerhouse that designs its own vehicles for the world stage. Nothing of substance happens overnight.

Rachel Ruiz39 said:We ought to abolish currency altogether and revert to a barter system. I was watching a documentary recently where they mentioned a sculptor who crafted a statue of the Holy Trinity and was compensated with the equivalent value of 200 eggs. We need to return to a life in harmony with nature; people should migrate from the cities to rural estates to engage in agriculture and lead tranquil lives. This current way of existence, imposed upon us by capitalism and greed, is arguably the greatest evil ever visited upon the human race.

Is that so? Have you given any thought to how humanity actually fared during those eras of barter—say, the pre-Antiquity period or the Middle Ages? Consider the average human lifespan. Think about what happened when someone suffered a simple toothache, let alone a more debilitating illness. How many children would have even survived to reach their twentieth birthday?

If you are truly enamored with the idea of a quiet life in the country, there are hundreds of thousands of acres of untamed land sitting right here in the States; sell everything you own, buy a plot and a cottage, and live your dream. However, if your goal is a life entirely unburdened by material concerns, then perhaps you should move to India and live that way.

goldengull3 said:If you're actually looking for some peace and quiet out in the country, there are hundreds of thousands of acres of untouched land just waiting out in the Midwest—you could sell everything you own, grab a little farmhouse and a patch of dirt, and finally just breathe... Or, if your heart is set on leaving material possessions behind entirely, you could just head over to India and live that way.

I have to admit, I am actually giving that first option some pretty serious thought.

goldengull3 said:Tesla was born in some tiny village in a pretty developed part of the Austro-Canadian Empire, so I guess that didn't stop him from basically reinventing the world.

What’s your point? That a guy from a poor background actually has a shot... if he happens to be a genius? 😁

And assuming his parents weren't totally uneducated or whatever.

But, by actual capitalist standards, Tesla wasn't successful at all—quite the opposite, really. He was constantly scraping by and struggling to find backers for his ideas... even with all those flashy shows and demos he used to market his inventions. 😬

The saddest part is that because of how greedy capitalism works, Tesla couldn't even finish half the stuff he worked on. He just couldn't sell his concepts or convince some money-hungry bankers to fund his projects... one of which I think was aimed at providing free—or at least super cheap—energy. 😍

Either way, capitalism's stupid math basically sabotaged Tesla's work, and it also stripped away a massive amount of wealth that Tesla wanted to give to the world rather than sell it.🙄

frozenangler9 said:You’re honestly a pro at using fancy little words to justify being immoral in every single area of life where you happen to be the one walking away with all the glory. 😛

Look, frozenangler9, we aren't talking about parent-child dynamics here; we're talking about relationships between grown-up, responsible adults. To some extent, life is just a constant struggle to get ahead against everyone else. Part of it involves cooperation. Part of it involves actually giving a damn about people. It's a messy mix of different vibes. I've found my own balance, and you probably have yours too. So why does it bother you so much that mine looks a little different?

In my world, this "mix" works perfectly for me and the people closest to me. Honestly, it works incredibly well! I’ve been married for thirty years now, and life is wonderful. As far as I can tell without performing brain surgery on my wife, she’s loving it. From everything I see, she—and everyone else I know—seems genuinely happy. My kids are joyful, kind, and killing it in their own lives (though they're all adults now).

On the business side of things, I’ve been running my small firm for quite a few years, employing five or six highly skilled professionals. And let me tell you, these aren't just some entry-level interns. The people working for me right now have been with me for years. Believe me, they’re doing great. If they weren't, they would have jumped ship a long time ago.

The thing is, these are people whose livelihoods don't actually depend on me staying afloat. When they move on from my company, they land amazing positions—for example, one former employee is now a director for a major trade association, one lady is a department head at a major network like NBC, and one guy is a spokesperson for a famous international NGO.

And even today, I still maintain fantastic relationships with every single one of them.

From your perspective, I guess you'd call it a total nightmare, a tragedy, and an absolute disaster.

So, I have to ask: how does a man as "immoral" as me manage to make life so good—not just for himself, but for everyone around him—over such a long, steady stretch of time?

It isn't easy to sustain a thirty-year marriage where people actually live happily, actively, and with a real sense of togetherness. It isn't easy to raise kids who aren't just successful, but truly happy human beings. It certainly isn't easy to run a complex business for nearly fifteen years in the unpredictable economic climate of a place like Chicago and keep a loyal, high-level team. And it's definitely not easy to stay friends with people who leave you because they've been offered incredible career opportunities where you served as their ultimate stepping stone.

Based on all that, I'd say, screw it—maybe I *am* doing something right in this life. Maybe there's a reason to believe that my way of thinking, my behavior, and my morals actually hold some weight.

I don't know what kind of practical evidence you have to back up your own worldview, your behavior, or your ethics, so I won't sit here and judge those. But for my part, I know that what I do is built on something solid; something that doesn't just satisfy me, but actually benefits and brings joy to the people in my orbit.

If that's the case, I think I have every right to share my views on this forum, hoping that maybe someone might reflect on them and find something useful.

I'm guessing none of this sits well with you, frozenangler9, but hey, not everyone is wired like you. And I'm betting you don't walk around thinking you're the sole, untouchable judge of how everyone should think, act, or behave.

Rachel Ruiz39 said:We should just scrap money entirely and go back to bartering. I was watching this documentary the other day where a sculptor who made a statue of the Holy Trinity got paid the equivalent of 200 eggs. People need to reconnect with nature. We should all ditch the cities, move out to some rural homestead, and get into farming. Live a quiet, decent life. This whole lifestyle forced on us by capitalism and pure greed is easily the worst thing to ever happen to humanity.

Yeah, sure. And then you’d be complaining because you aren't the chief of your tribe. You’ll be positive you could’ve carved a better statue for 150 eggs, but nobody’s listening to you. Then the witch doctor wants 25 eggs to exorcise some demons, but you only have three roosters left and you actually want to eat something. Shit happens. 😬

Max said:Yeah, and then he’d probably start complaining because you aren't the tribal chief, and even though you're certain you could carve a better statue for 150 eggs, nobody is actually listening to you... Plus, you go to the shaman asking to exorcise some evil spirits for 25 eggs, but all you have are three roosters and you're also trying to find something to eat... Shit! 😬

And then, I suppose, you end up signing some contract with the shaman saying you owe him 25 eggs. Then he has to pay sales tax😬 😬 😬 to the chief, but since he can't tear up the paperwork, he just writes down that the chief now owes him 10 eggs. The chief pays his soldiers in eggs, and every single day he writes down that they're owed one more egg—since, you know, not everyone in the village has chickens. Eventually, they come to you to collect the eggs, you show them all this paperwork, and then everything just starts all over again... I guess it might just be easier to settle everything with cash