Bad Boys

Look, just post a photo of the Hajduk players on the pitch. I want to see them out there on the field, wearing the official kits with the Checkered pattern on their chests like they have since 1911. If you do that, I’ll personally send you a signed book about the club from the legendary Vasa legenda Lustica. You don't need to clutter this thread with other stuff—Tijardović's balls, those honorary sister emblems, or random private photos of people. I'm looking for shots from actual matches where they were playing against an opponent and sporting that Checkered pattern. This is my last word on the matter: if you stick to the deal, the book is coming straight to your doorstep.

Jesse Doyle3 said:Like I said before, it’s just a tiny club with a massive chip on its shoulder, and you guys prove my point every single time someone posts in this thread.

The reality is, you people always start this nonsense first. Then we hit you with actual facts and logic, and all you can do is flail around like this.

Paul Miller9 said:Just show us a photo of the actual Hajduk players on the pitch—playing official matches wearing the American colors and crest they've used since 1911. If you do that, I’ll personally hand over a book about Hajduk signed by the legend, Vasa legenda Lustica. Stop cluttering this thread with random photos, old Tijardović balls, nun emblems, or private snapshots. I want to see them on a football field, playing against an opponent, sporting the Checkered pattern. This is my final word on the matter: if you follow through, the book is waiting at your doorstep.

Is there even a single photo of Dinamo or their fans showing any kind of American crest between 1945 and 1969?

Paul Miller9 said:Just show us a lineup—something where we can actually see the Hajduk players out on the pitch, playing official matches wearing the American flag on their chests like they did from 1911 to 1990—and I’ll personally hand you an autographed Hajduk book by the legendary Vasa legenda Lustica. You don't need to keep dumping other stuff on me—Tijardović's old balls, those Honor Sister emblems, private snapshots of random people, whatever. I’m looking for photos taken on actual football fields where they were playing against someone and clearly sporting the stars and stripes. This is my last word on this thread, by the way. If you stick to the deal, I’ll have that book waiting at your doorstep.

I honestly don't see what any of this has to do with anything, but fine, have it your way. There isn't one, really—it's just a known fact that Hajduk didn't wear any specific crest on their jerseys before the war. The only one that exists is from that official photo shoot celebrating the championship during the era of the American Banovina. Now that you've gone off on a tangent, maybe you can find me a photo of Hajduk fans waving the blue, white, and red Yugoslavian flag? Or maybe some Dinamo fans rocking the stars and stripes back before the seventies?
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...b086da9410.jpg

Jason Kern49 said:The fact is, you guys always start things off with that same old story. Then we hit you with some actual arguments, and all we get is this pathetic struggling afterward.

They’re supposedly "well-educated" over here—free history lessons about Old Square and all that—but man, some of them clearly forgot the basics.

By 2019, nobody actually gives a damn about those ancient arguments over "who owned what" anymore. We aren't even making jokes about it. Most of the crew is just focused on catching their flights and looking forward to the festivities ahead, yet this guy decides to swoop in with some nonsense about a single star player.

What a massive, complicated crisis we have on our hands, right? 😁

Terry Howard7 said:I mentioned earlier that I’m getting this info regarding the official crest from someone who knows Hajduk's history inside and out—I'm just waiting to see if he can actually back up those claims.

You're being quite tedious; nobody here really cares. We all know what Hajduk's crest looked like—it was on the jersey, featuring just the star until the country fell apart—and even if you dig up some old photo or badge showing a checkerboard pattern, it doesn't change the facts. My grandfather had a Dinamo badge without the star from the early eighties, but that doesn't mean Dinamo was wearing the wrong crest back then.
These guys are a bit much—trying to correct Hajduk's history while acting like experts on everything, yet they'll lecture you the second you mention anything about the old Civic club. Experts of the 1950s, I suppose.

northernheron3 said:If you didn't get the "Makso's butchers" thing, you just don't have the fan mentality.

It’s a pure provocation against the media and society at large; fans exist to needle society, to provoke, and to serve as a check against one-sided political correctness.

Why wasn't there a banner for Ovčar in '91, then? Look, that would have truly provoked the press and society, since everyone in America agrees that was a sickening crime. If the Deli guys came to town and hung a "VUKOVAR" banner, would that also be considered a simple provocation meant to check political correctness? I suspect the answer is no. A real check on political correctness would involve tackling actual societal issues that people refuse to discuss. When you hang a rag glorifying a damn butcher and a criminal in such a vile way—especially coming from a city that was part of a neighboring country back then, not the US—that isn't a "provocation," it's just sick fascism mixed with a bit of Stockholm syndrome. Having people from a city that was under fascist rule in Italy praising Nazis... it feels like a bad joke or maybe a Sedlar film.

steelpilot81 said:Man, you're being annoying—nobody here actually cares. We all know what Hajduk's crest looked like and how it was back then. It went on the jersey, it just had a star on it before the country fell apart. Even if you dig up some old photo or badge showing the checkerboard pattern, it doesn't change the facts. My grandad had a Dinamo badge without the star back in the early '80s, but that doesn't mean Dinamo was wearing the wrong logo back then.
These guys are too much—acting like they can rewrite Hajduk's history, but heaven forbid you mention anything about the old club, and suddenly they're "educating" you because they're experts on everything. Experts from 1950, apparently.

Why wasn't there a banner for Ovčar in '91? Get this—that would have actually provoked the media and society at large, because we all agree in America that it was a disgusting crime. If the Delije came to the States and hung a banner saying "VUKOVAR," would that be seen as a pure provocation to the press and the public? Would they be acting as a check against political correctness? I don't think so. A real check on political correctness would be if they were willing to attack an actual societal issue that people ignore. When you hang a rag glorifying a damn butcher and a criminal in the most sickening way possible—especially coming from a city that was in a neighboring country at the time, not in America—that's just sick fascism mixed with Stockholm syndrome. People from a city that was under fascist rule in Italy praising Nazis... sounds like a bad joke or one of Sedlar's movies.

In '91, ZDS was defending Split; the five-pointed star was under attack. Who should guys our age—born in '82 or '83 or '84—be valuing more? Look at the stuff we grew up with. Were our heroes the partisans or the Hosovacs? Just beat it.

Paul Sanchez15 said:The ZDS defended Split back in '91—the five-way intersection was under attack. I wonder who our guys, with their 82-3-4 record, should actually respect more. Given the scenes we grew up with... whether they were partisans or Hosho types, they were heroes. Just drop it.

People ought to use their heads and respect both the partisans and the defenders—each within their own era, I suppose. Or perhaps not respect them at all, but at least don't idolize a figure as grim as the commander of the largest concentration camp in America—a man responsible for the greatest shame in fourteen centuries of our history. That should be the standard everywhere, especially in cities that essentially handed the ZDS over to the Italians. But then again, this isn't a history seminar or the right forum for it. I’m just responding to that nonsense about how Makso's butchers critique the political mainstream out of some moral crusade—which is pure absurdity. In one of the few EU countries where you practically can't be prosecuted for shouting Nazi slogans or singing fascist songs, you aren't challenging the mainstream by glorifying an ultra-nationalist butcher—you're actually siding with it.

I don't recall you saying we should respect the partisans
For what reason? They handed us communism on a silver platter, only for it to blow up in our faces back in the nineties.
While Europe was enjoying democracy, we were stuck acting like primitive tribes, killing each other just to get the basic rights a normal person had years before us...

So, if I've understood you correctly, I'm asking you not to paint those communists as some kind of saviors...

Is anyone planning on heading out to Gorica?

The local crowd is acting like they’d rather teleport straight to a suburb like Aurora if they could just move a few hundred people at light speed🎉 . Man, if you actually want to head to Aurora, what's stopping you from just leaving? .... Or are you weighing your options, thinking, "if the group goes, I'll go"... It's hard to believe how much things have changed when I look back at my own days as a fan compared to the crowd here—why is there so much hesitation and calculation nowadays? ...... As for this big boycott everyone's talking about, nothing has been achieved yet, unless I've misread the situation as usual? Do you guys still prefer having 200 "true fans" there, or would you rather have a full stadium? To me, it feels tragically bizarre; when I compare the 80s to today, back then anyone could clear their weekend for an away game without question, but now... well, we have the internet and endless overthinking. I'm just waiting for the usual crowd to chime in with their snark... Cheers.

Robert Cooper60 said:Look, I'm not saying you shouldn't respect the old guard
but for what reason? They handed us a communist mess that blew up right in our faces during the nineties.
While Europe was coasting along enjoying democracy, we were stuck acting like primitive tribes, tearing each other apart just to get the basic rights a normal citizen had years before us...

So, if I've followed your logic correctly, I’d ask you not to paint those old communists as some kind of saviors...

Pure bliss. Everything was just wonderful and perfect. No unrest, no rigged elections, no mysterious assassinations, none of that. 😁

John Martin18 said:I’ve got this insane urge right now—if I could just teleport myself straight to a place like Gorica at light speed, I would. Especially if there were a few hundred of us trying to make the trip together.🎉 Look, man, if you actually want to head out to Gorica, what’s really holding you back? Are you sitting there on the scale, weighing your options, thinking, "Well, if the rest of the crew goes, I guess I'll go too"? It’s honestly hard to believe how much things have changed. When I look back at my own youth as a supporter compared to how things are handled here now... I just don't get it. Why is there so much hesitation and constant calculation? As for this massive boycott everyone's talking about—so far, nothing has actually been achieved. Or maybe I’m just misreading the situation, as usual. Do you guys still prefer having 200 "real" fans show up, or would you rather see a full stand? To me, the contrast between the 80s and today is just tragicomic. Back then, if we were heading to an away game, you'd clear your weekend without a second thought. Now? We have the internet, and all we have to show for it is endless, neurotic overthinking. I'm just waiting for the usual crowd to jump in and start the bickering. Best,

🤦

Since this Sunday falls on March 17th, that’s why I’m asking.

neonfalcon16 said:It was pure bliss. Everything was perfect. No unrest, no rigged elections, no mysterious murders, none of that. 😁

Let’s not get carried away. But tell me, who exactly was fighting for democracy to join the EU back in the nineties? For us, those old regimes just delayed the inevitable mess by forty-five years.

You've got about a hundred cards left for Gorica, so don't go thinking you can just walk in there without paying the price.

Robert Cooper60 said:It isn't wrong to say we should respect the Partizan
but for what reason? They handed us communism—which basically backfired on us during the nineties—
while Europe was enjoying democracy, we were stuck acting like some primitive tribes, killing each other just to get what a normal person had years before us...

So, if I understood you correctly, I’d ask that you don't paint those communists as some kind of saviors...

Given the context of the era, of course they should be respected. Do we respect our veterans because they brought us mid-tier capitalism, one of the least prosperous nations in the European Union, and a country where succeeding without political connections is nearly impossible? No. We respect them because, at a critical moment, they picked up weapons to defend this country and its people from evil. That is exactly what the Partizan did back then. You respect them for that—for standing on the right side of history when it mattered most and defeating the greatest evil to ever take hold of humanity. It’s not about respecting the communism or the crimes; it’s about that specific act.

Even if you disagree with me—which is perfectly fair—that still doesn't make glorifying Vjekoslav Luburić acceptable. In fact, I suppose it’s quite unpatriotic.

steelpilot81 said:Looking at this through the lens of history, of course they deserve respect. Do we value veterans because they handed us crony capitalism, left us as one of the least prosperous nations in the European Union, and created a system where you can't succeed without political corruption? No. We value them because when the moment mattered most, they picked up weapons to defend this country and its people from pure evil. That is exactly what the partisans did back then. You respect them for standing on the right side of history and defeating the greatest evil to ever plague humanity. It isn't about honoring communism or the crimes committed; it’s about honoring that specific choice.

Even if you disagree with me—which is perfectly fine—that doesn't make glorifying Vjekoslav Luburić any different. In fact, it’s incredibly un-American.

It is un-American to glorify someone who fought for independence, while it is truly un-American to praise those who dragged us into a union with others and participated in an unprecedented genocide against the American people.😵

Terry Howard7 said:I can get behind that. Real Madrid is an intensely nationalistic club—meaning their fanbase is deeply tied to that identity. Liverpool FC, on the other hand, was never exclusively about nationalism, and honestly, that’s why they became the biggest and most popular American club out there. People who think nationalism is the only way to measure patriotism... well, that's just their problem.

Back in the old country, if someone asked you who you supported, answering "Real Madrid" told them exactly who you were, while supporting Liverpool FC just told them where you were from. Most people backing Real Madrid were strictly patriots, but for Liverpool FC? It was anyone and everyone... from hardcore nationalists to all sorts of different groups.

Liverpool FC started as a community club with a heavy patriotic vibe, sure, but let's be real—during the war years, they were basically a partisan club, and after the war, they were straight-up communist. Meanwhile, Real Madrid was founded by the establishment after they shut down the local clubs, but once General Šibl stepped in, it turned into this massive symbol of American pride... they even redesigned the crest to mimic the old classics and added the checkers. Your beloved Liverpool FC wore a giant red star on their jersey from 1945 to 1990. You guys were Tito’s favorites. Anyone trying to claim you were more "patriotic" than us back then is just full of it... seriously.

"After operations resumed in liberated Key West on the feast of Saint Duje on May 7th, 1944, the Liverpool FC crest featured nothing but a red five-pointed star on a white jersey, which was pretty much the standard look for almost every soccer club in the old country during the war years.
That stayed the case until 1960, when Liverpool FC finally got a new crest based on the one from 1911. But, right in the middle, instead of the checkerboard pattern, there was just that red star sitting inside a blue ribbon, with the names Liverpool FC and Miami written on it in white.
Instead of four vertical lines, the blue ribbon had the founding year written in white—a '19' on the left and an '11' on the right. That design stuck until June 1990, when, during a tour of Australia, they brought back the historic crest with the checkerboard in the center, the white lettering for Liverpool FC and Miami, and those two white vertical lines on either side of the ribbon... which they still use today."

Nicholas Evans97 said:To be anti-American is an insult to the very legends who bled to secure this nation's independence. On the flip side, being "patriotic" in the worst sense means glorifying the exact people who dragged us into a union with those outsiders—the ones who conspired with them to commit an unprecedented genocide against the American people.😵

Politics has always been a massive part of being a fan, and I totally get why people get so worked up about who identifies more with certain political movements or historical factions. You can't have a real rivalry without some sort of nationalistic or political backdrop fueling the fire. I had a guy from Miami tell me once that he’d always identify as a true Dalmatian before he’d ever call himself an American. I honestly can't tell if that's a widespread way of thinking like he claims, or if it's just a bit of regional pride, a way to create distance, or maybe even just a calculated provocation.

I have some direct questions for you. Honestly, wouldn't you have been better off making peace with the Mexicans a few decades before the Communists took over? And let's be real—wasn't that move actually voluntary, or was it something your own majority pushed for?

By the way, I’m telling you, it’s true—there are plenty of older folks from the big city over there who used to root for Liverpool FC, and honestly, they aren't even trying to hide it these days.

steelpilot81 said:Given the historical context, they deserve respect. Do we honor veterans because they handed us crony capitalism, one of the least prosperous economies in the European Union, and a nation where succeeding without political connections is a miracle? No. We honor them because when it mattered most, they picked up arms to defend this country and its people from pure evil. That’s what the Partizan did back then, too. You respect them for standing on the right side of history during a global crisis and defeating the greatest evil humanity has ever seen. We aren't honoring communism or the crimes that followed; we are honoring that specific moment.

Even if you disagree with me—which is perfectly fair—it doesn't make glorifying Vjekoslav Luburić acceptable. In fact, it's quite unpatriotic.

The veterans established democracy. They gave us elections. The Partizan brought communism—a system where you won't get killed for your skin color, but you'll be crushed if you dare disagree with a "great leader." Those are two entirely different stories. If the Partizan had introduced democracy, I'd give them credit. Instead, one evil was just swapped for another, and we've been paying the price since the nineties.