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Deleting posts

Started by Mark Harris66 · · 👁 5 views · 82 replies

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Participants Mark Harris66feralpilot0William Gonzalez3Bradley Sanders4Daniel Ward87Rachel Cooper3Michelle Palmer6crimsonjackal63Nicole Vaughn70William Bennett53Casey Ramos31rapidbear65Matthew Castillo5lonebadger6Michelle EvansPaul Thomas46Angela Fox16Brenda Taylor13Alex CookMorgan Rodriguez57Sam Green73Alex Miller3bluemason3Susan Price30 …
Mark Harris66 Mark Harris66 Active MemberOP
158 messages
joined Oct 2016
#1 ·
Hi there,
I was wondering why my posts regarding René Bitorajac were deleted from that thread?
Is it against the rules to discuss René's past legal issues? Especially since the topic is under the "Close to Politics" subforum—where I thought we had more freedom to speak our minds...
(Specifically, I was talking about his high school enrollment and that court ruling involving a serious injury to a parking lot attendant caused by a screwdriver)

Why is it okay for people to bring up an individual's past actions on certain threads in the main Politics section—I can provide examples if needed—but then it's restricted on this specific thread, even though it's in the "Close to Politics" section? I'd really appreciate some clarification on this.

Thanks in advance.
feralpilot0 feralpilot0 Active Member
142 messages
joined Jul 2018
#2 ·
Same question as the title above.

Why can't his behavior be seen as just "going with the flow"—rather than some deep critique of the state of the country? I mean—isn't having differing opinions just what this forum is for?

Apparently, nuance is a foreign concept in American Politics.

Thanks.
William Gonzalez3 William Gonzalez3 Regular
276 messages
joined May 2009
#3 ·
Why were my posts deleted from the thread about René Bitorajac?

It’s because you're a fascist—just like me, really—and there's just no talking to people like us; they just delete everything instead.

Formally speaking, I suppose the explanation will probably be that René's alleged past transgressions aren't supposedly linked to his supposed poetic work—meaning, apparently, you were off-topic.

It doesn't matter if it's a "freer PDF," as they might say.
Not everyone can just say whatever they want, I guess.
Bradley Sanders4 Bradley Sanders4 Active Member
108 messages
joined Jul 2018
#4 ·
William Gonzalez3 said:
Why were my posts deleted from the thread about René Bitorajac?

It’s because you're a fascist—just like me, really—and there's just no talking to people like us; they just delete everything instead.

Formally speaking, I suppose the explanation will probably be that René's alleged past transgressions aren't supposedly linked to his supposed poetic work—meaning, apparently, you were off-topic.

It doesn't matter if it's a "freer PDF," as they might say.
Not everyone can just say whatever they want, I guess.

And they aren't. Bitorajac isn't even the point here.
Mark Harris66 Mark Harris66 Active MemberOP
158 messages
joined Oct 2016
#5 ·
Let's talk about René Bitorajac and his music. His whole vibe is tied directly to the songs he performs—it’s hard to separate the art from the man when you're trying to buy into the performance. Plus, based on what I've seen in other political threads, it really matters WHO is talking, not just WHAT is being said... so I'm expecting some consistency here.
If we’re out here tearing down politicians because of their character or stuff from their past, then artists shouldn't get a free pass either—they're public figures too.
I mean, if people were allowed to comment on Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović's weight in that other thread, why can't we talk about René and his legal issues? (He actually got a specific court ruling for one of them, after all). Someone's physical appearance doesn't hurt anyone else, but someone's actions certainly can...
Bradley Sanders4 Bradley Sanders4 Active Member
108 messages
joined Jul 2018
#6 ·
I think we’ve already explained countless times that when it comes to threads about politicians or people whose actions actually shape policy and the daily lives of citizens, we allow for much harsher criticism and a wider range of discussion. These are the people we elect, the ones we pay, and the ones who impact everyone's life in this country. René Bitorajac doesn't fall into any of those categories. Sure, he’s a public figure, but politically speaking, he’s totally irrelevant. Discussing his entire persona and career is more suited for a gossip thread on the Kokošinjac subforum than in Politics.

Talking about René Bitorajac’s credibility would only be on-topic if it were directly related to what he actually does. For instance, if he were chosen as the face of an anti-violence campaign, then his physical altercation with a security guard would be fair game. But that’s not the case here. It’s not because we’re some obsessed fans of René Bitorajac trying to shield him from scrutiny; it’s because your posts were textbook examples of ad hominem attacks—basically just attempts to discredit a message by attacking the person delivering it. Again, the subject isn't René Bitorajac; it's his song. Whether or not he got into school or college through connections is completely irrelevant, especially since that isn't verified, public info, but just pure gossip. I have to admit, the specific order of your posts is exactly why they were deleted. If you had started with the physical assault, maybe they might have stayed, but since you kicked things off with rumors and then doubled down on this, it was obvious your only goal was to shift the focus from the work to the individual. Since this thread is open so we can discuss the art, I decided to pull the posts that were steering us away from that.

Kolinda isn't the topic, and even if she were, look at the first paragraph. We allow much more leeway when criticizing politicians. (Note: I specifically deleted the particularly nasty comments about her appearance because I find them sexist and out of line.) Let's go back to the parallel here. If someone commented on Lozančić's dismissal by calling her fat, that comment would have been deleted too. The same goes for a comment claiming someone got into high school through nepotism. It's irrelevant and off-topic.

And finally, I have to say I'm pretty disappointed by this whole thread. It’s unusual and frankly unprofessional for a moderator to address another moderator via the PŽK. Especially since you know exactly where to find us.
Daniel Ward87 Daniel Ward87 Active Member
195 messages
joined May 2023
#7 ·
Mark Harris66 said:Let's talk about René Bitorajac and his music. His whole vibe is tied directly to the songs he performs—it’s hard to separate the art from the man when you're trying to buy into the performance. Plus, based on what I've seen in other political threads, it really matters WHO is talking, not just WHAT is being said... so I'm expecting some consistency here.
If we’re out here tearing down politicians because of their character or stuff from their past, then artists shouldn't get a free pass either—they're public figures too.
I mean, if people were allowed to comment on Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović's weight in that other thread, why can't we talk about René and his legal issues? (He actually got a specific court ruling for one of them, after all). Someone's physical appearance doesn't hurt anyone else, but someone's actions certainly can...

How exactly is his work tied to his music? He’s an actor who mostly performs in various theater productions, so I don't really see how his career connects to the stuff he sings about, other than the fact that he lives in the same country.

Mark Harris66 said:Let's talk about René Bitorajac and his music. His whole vibe is tied directly to the songs he performs—it’s hard to separate the art from the man when you're trying to buy into the performance. Plus, based on what I've seen in other political threads, it really matters WHO is talking, not just WHAT is being said... so I'm expecting some consistency here.
If we’re out here tearing down politicians because of their character or stuff from their past, then artists shouldn't get a free pass either—they're public figures too.
I mean, if people were allowed to comment on Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović's weight in that other thread, why can't we talk about René and his legal issues? (He actually got a specific court ruling for one of them, after all). Someone's physical appearance doesn't hurt anyone else, but someone's actions certainly can...

If Marko Perković Thompson had sung this song, nothing would have changed. Are you seriously suggesting René isn't worthy of touching on these themes? Most of what he's singing about is just a blunt reflection of how things actually work in our society. Sure, the song generalizes a bit, but to me, his music hits just as hard as those American Tragedies you see floating around on Facebook.

Look, I agree that credibility matters and who's talking is important, but personally, in this specific case, the fact that it was René doing it instead of someone like Luka Bulić doesn't change a thing for me.

Mark Harris66 said:Let's talk about René Bitorajac and his music. His whole vibe is tied directly to the songs he performs—it’s hard to separate the art from the man when you're trying to buy into the performance. Plus, based on what I've seen in other political threads, it really matters WHO is talking, not just WHAT is being said... so I'm expecting some consistency here.
If we’re out here tearing down politicians because of their character or stuff from their past, then artists shouldn't get a free pass either—they're public figures too.
I mean, if people were allowed to comment on Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović's weight in that other thread, why can't we talk about René and his legal issues? (He actually got a specific court ruling for one of them, after all). Someone's physical appearance doesn't hurt anyone else, but someone's actions certainly can...

Honestly, speaking as the moderator for Politics, I think the real issue lies more with the themes celebrated in the song rather than René himself. The problem isn't René; it's what he’s singing about and how it’s being portrayed. That’s where the core of the debate really sits.

Mark Harris66 said:Let's talk about René Bitorajac and his music. His whole vibe is tied directly to the songs he performs—it’s hard to separate the art from the man when you're trying to buy into the performance. Plus, based on what I've seen in other political threads, it really matters WHO is talking, not just WHAT is being said... so I'm expecting some consistency here.
If we’re out here tearing down politicians because of their character or stuff from their past, then artists shouldn't get a free pass either—they're public figures too.
I mean, if people were allowed to comment on Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović's weight in that other thread, why can't we talk about René and his legal issues? (He actually got a specific court ruling for one of them, after all). Someone's physical appearance doesn't hurt anyone else, but someone's actions certainly can...

People might toss out a comment about Kolinda's weight here and there, but I've personally wiped out more posts that were nothing but digs at her size. Most of the conversation focuses on her role as a political figure and public persona. So, while a little comment might slip through, we don't allow full-blown debates about her weight because that's just not what this thread is about.
Bradley Sanders4 Bradley Sanders4 Active Member
108 messages
joined Jul 2018
#8 ·
feralpilot0 said:Same question as the title above.

Why can't his behavior be seen as just "going with the flow"—rather than some deep critique of the state of the country? I mean—isn't having differing opinions just what this forum is for?

Apparently, nuance is a foreign concept in American Politics.

Thanks.

Sorry, I didn't quite catch your drift there. Could you clear that up for me?
Rachel Cooper3 Rachel Cooper3 Active Member
167 messages
joined May 2014
#9 ·
Just as an example, since you already brought up Thompson... say if Thompson speaks up or comments on politics—I’ve noticed people immediately jump straight to taxes, Jure, or Boban—but those posts aren't even deleted. What is the actual difference between those two?
Mark Harris66 Mark Harris66 Active MemberOP
158 messages
joined Oct 2016
#10 ·
It’s not just random nonsense—that’s just a baseless assumption on your part. There’s actual evidence sitting right there in the school archives.
René is a public figure with a contract at the ZKM, which is funded by the City of Los Angeles. Since I live and work here in LA, a portion of my paycheck goes straight into the city budget that supports the ZKM. So, saying he isn't publicly funded is just plain wrong—and because of that, he carries a level of accountability to the public, just like anyone else getting a dime from city, county, or federal tax dollars. If he wasn't taking a single cent from any government entity, his moral responsibilities wouldn't be my business... but it’s pretty hypocritical to call out others while being violent himself. That song is completely at odds with how he actually behaves.
So why delete the post about the act of violence then?
Secondly, maybe they just scrubbed the tacky comments about Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović's weight (since they noted "especially nasty ones," implying the really ugly stuff stayed up), but her weight has zero to do with her political career. I don't care about anyone's size or looks—honestly, I think it's classless to publicly comment on whether someone is overweight, bald, or unattractive (people said those things about Zoran Milanović, which I also find tasteless and irrelevant to his job), etc. I don't even stoop to that level when talking about Kokošinjac.
I was told personally (you can see that post) that if I have grievances regarding someone's work, I should take it to the PZK sub-forum.
Daniel Ward87 Daniel Ward87 Active Member
195 messages
joined May 2023
#11 ·
Rachel Cooper3 said:Just as an example, since you already brought up Thompson... say if Thompson speaks up or comments on politics—I’ve noticed people immediately jump straight to taxes, Jure, or Boban—but those posts aren't even deleted. What is the actual difference between those two?

In my book, there isn't one, but what really matters is the specific thread where the debate is happening.
I can't tell you off the top of my head why certain posts stay up while others get nuked. It all depends on the context of the thread itself, which is why we always ask people to be more specific—like dropping a link to the thread or the exact post. To be fair, I haven't moderated Politics in a while, so I might not be the best authority here.
Michelle Palmer6 Michelle Palmer6 Regular
432 messages
joined Sep 2018
#12 ·
I personally don't think they should have been deleted right out of the gate, but let's be honest—those few posts were nothing more than a massive attempt at poisoning the well. In this specific instance, René's moral authority wasn't even relevant, nor was anyone actually dragging him into the debate.
crimsonjackal63 crimsonjackal63 Active Member
55 messages
joined Mar 2012
#13 ·
Bradley Sanders4 said:And they aren't. Bitorajac isn't even the point here.

Look, the topic is "Me Americans," so it’s perfectly logical to point out how Bitorajac himself—since we're already in the business of criticizing—could easily be one of the main characters in this whole mess.
- Picture Čelavi Bitorajac swinging a metal rod at some other poor soul; it's pretty easy to see how he could actually end up in a song or music video like that...
With info like that, it's completely fair to take a critical look at what was really driving the creation of that track.

Of course, this is just my personal opinion—something that shouldn't be suppressed in a democratic society. Deleting posts is suppression, plain and simple: it's censorship.
We really ought to stop with these ugly habits.
And naturally, please just put the deleted post back where it belongs...
Mark Harris66 Mark Harris66 Active MemberOP
158 messages
joined Oct 2016
#14 ·
René's moral authority actually matters here—mostly because he’s drawing a paycheck from the public treasury. In my view, anyone getting paid by US taxpayers needs to be a responsible citizen... they shouldn't be fueling negative social trends. If anything, they should be doing their job to the best of their ability for the common good of society. He can do whatever he wants at home—as long as he isn't breaking any US laws, I don't really care—but his public persona is a whole different story.
Nicole Vaughn70 Nicole Vaughn70 Newcomer
8 messages
joined Jul 2013
#15 ·
Mark Harris66 said:It’s not just random nonsense—that’s just a baseless assumption on your part. There’s actual evidence sitting right there in the school archives.
René is a public figure with a contract at the ZKM, which is funded by the City of Los Angeles. Since I live and work here in LA, a portion of my paycheck goes straight into the city budget that supports the ZKM. So, saying he isn't publicly funded is just plain wrong—and because of that, he carries a level of accountability to the public, just like anyone else getting a dime from city, county, or federal tax dollars. If he wasn't taking a single cent from any government entity, his moral responsibilities wouldn't be my business... but it’s pretty hypocritical to call out others while being violent himself. That song is completely at odds with how he actually behaves.
So why delete the post about the act of violence then?
Secondly, maybe they just scrubbed the tacky comments about Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović's weight (since they noted "especially nasty ones," implying the really ugly stuff stayed up), but her weight has zero to do with her political career. I don't care about anyone's size or looks—honestly, I think it's classless to publicly comment on whether someone is overweight, bald, or unattractive (people said those things about Zoran Milanović, which I also find tasteless and irrelevant to his job), etc. I don't even stoop to that level when talking about Kokošinjac.
I was told personally (you can see that post) that if I have grievances regarding someone's work, I should take it to the PZK sub-forum.

I read somewhere that René has been a freelance artist for the last five years.
Daniel Ward87 Daniel Ward87 Active Member
195 messages
joined May 2023
#16 ·
Mark Harris66 said:It’s not just random nonsense—that’s just a baseless assumption on your part. There’s actual evidence sitting right there in the school archives.
René is a public figure with a contract at the ZKM, which is funded by the City of Los Angeles. Since I live and work here in LA, a portion of my paycheck goes straight into the city budget that supports the ZKM. So, saying he isn't publicly funded is just plain wrong—and because of that, he carries a level of accountability to the public, just like anyone else getting a dime from city, county, or federal tax dollars. If he wasn't taking a single cent from any government entity, his moral responsibilities wouldn't be my business... but it’s pretty hypocritical to call out others while being violent himself. That song is completely at odds with how he actually behaves.
So why delete the post about the act of violence then?
Secondly, maybe they just scrubbed the tacky comments about Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović's weight (since they noted "especially nasty ones," implying the really ugly stuff stayed up), but her weight has zero to do with her political career. I don't care about anyone's size or looks—honestly, I think it's classless to publicly comment on whether someone is overweight, bald, or unattractive (people said those things about Zoran Milanović, which I also find tasteless and irrelevant to his job), etc. I don't even stoop to that level when talking about Kokošinjac.
I was told personally (you can see that post) that if I have grievances regarding someone's work, I should take it to the PZK sub-forum.

His outburst about violence has nothing to do with the song’s actual message regarding the reality of American society. Honestly, it doesn't matter if it was Luka Bulić or René Bitorajac singing it—it's just an artist's personal, free interpretation of the world they live in. Whether that take is good, bad, or actually realistic? Well, that's what we're here to debate.

Mark Harris66 said:It’s not just random nonsense—that’s just a baseless assumption on your part. There’s actual evidence sitting right there in the school archives.
René is a public figure with a contract at the ZKM, which is funded by the City of Los Angeles. Since I live and work here in LA, a portion of my paycheck goes straight into the city budget that supports the ZKM. So, saying he isn't publicly funded is just plain wrong—and because of that, he carries a level of accountability to the public, just like anyone else getting a dime from city, county, or federal tax dollars. If he wasn't taking a single cent from any government entity, his moral responsibilities wouldn't be my business... but it’s pretty hypocritical to call out others while being violent himself. That song is completely at odds with how he actually behaves.
So why delete the post about the act of violence then?
Secondly, maybe they just scrubbed the tacky comments about Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović's weight (since they noted "especially nasty ones," implying the really ugly stuff stayed up), but her weight has zero to do with her political career. I don't care about anyone's size or looks—honestly, I think it's classless to publicly comment on whether someone is overweight, bald, or unattractive (people said those things about Zoran Milanović, which I also find tasteless and irrelevant to his job), etc. I don't even stoop to that level when talking about Kokošinjac.
I was told personally (you can see that post) that if I have grievances regarding someone's work, I should take it to the PZK sub-forum.

That's exactly right. As far as I'm concerned, you've already gotten your answer.
Mark Harris66 Mark Harris66 Active MemberOP
158 messages
joined Oct 2016
#17 ·
I honestly think his violence is directly tied to what the song is about—it critiques society, yet he’s basically contributed to the very reality he’s criticizing...

Alright, I guess I got my answer.
William Bennett53 William Bennett53 Regular
491 messages
joined Sep 2016
#18 ·
At first glance, this thread appears to be about censorship on the forum, but after scrolling through less than a page of posts, it becomes clear that we are actually witnessing a desire for societal censorship. Specifically, all the deleted posts focus exclusively on the individual who performed that little song number, starting with unverified claims that he got into high school through some sort of connection—which might be true or entirely fabricated, but frankly, it doesn't matter since he certainly wasn't pulling any strings as a teenager. As previously noted, numerous posts making similar claims about Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović were also removed. Comparing comments about Kolinda's weight to this isn't a valid parallel because: 1. nobody here is debating, for instance, René's baldness, 2. René isn't an official or even a politician, but an artist, so whether his record is spotless is irrelevant, and 3. Kolinda is a figure on the political stage; she is a politician and the president of our beautiful nation.

Furthermore, why do I believe this is about a desire to censor rather than an attempt to prevent it?
Mark Harris66 said:René is a public figure under contract with the ZKM. Since I live and work in the city, part of my paycheck goes toward the local government budget that funds the ZKM. Therefore, the claim that he isn't being funded is inaccurate, and he does indeed carry a certain degree of responsibility to the public, just like anyone else whose salary comes from the public treasury. If he didn't receive a single cent from a city, county, or state budget, his moral responsibility wouldn't be my concern.

And then:
Mark Harris66 said:René's moral authority matters because he receives a salary from public funds. I believe anyone drawing money from the public purse must be a responsible person and avoid contributing to negative societal trends; moreover, they should work for the general welfare of society. He can do whatever he wants at home—that's irrelevant to me (provided he isn't breaking US laws)—but his public actions are a different story.

So, even though he isn't an official or a politician, he is expected to watch what he says. His moral responsibility stems from the fact that, as an actor, part of his income comes via a contract (which I assume isn't a standard employment contract) with a theater funded by the city, and since the city is a local government unit within the United States, essentially, the state is paying René. Following this logic, a janitor wouldn't be allowed to express an opinion publicly either if he works as a contractor sweeping floors at a stadium, simply because sports teams are funded by taxpayer dollars and the man is effectively on the government payroll.

Finally, because of all this, he shouldn't "contribute to negative societal trends," but rather "work for the general welfare." It seems "negative societal trends" are apparently created whenever someone dares to speak up against the nationalist-conservative mainstream. Thus, the issue isn't what René sings (about which he may or may not be right), but rather that his singing points it out. Should we stone the boy who shouts "the emperor has no clothes" just because he took a lollipop from the table without asking and shouldn't be helping people realize the emperor is naked?

In my view, deleting posts—which, having been done thousands of times, is the most standard moderator action to prevent a discussion from spiraling or being derailed—was entirely justified.
Nicole Vaughn70 Nicole Vaughn70 Newcomer
8 messages
joined Jul 2013
#19 ·
William Bennett53 said:At first glance, this thread appears to be about censorship on the forum, but after scrolling through less than a page of posts, it becomes clear that we are actually witnessing a desire for societal censorship. Specifically, all the deleted posts focus exclusively on the individual who performed that little song number, starting with unverified claims that he got into high school through some sort of connection—which might be true or entirely fabricated, but frankly, it doesn't matter since he certainly wasn't pulling any strings as a teenager. As previously noted, numerous posts making similar claims about Kolinda Grabar-Kitarović were also removed. Comparing comments about Kolinda's weight to this isn't a valid parallel because: 1. nobody here is debating, for instance, René's baldness, 2. René isn't an official or even a politician, but an artist, so whether his record is spotless is irrelevant, and 3. Kolinda is a figure on the political stage; she is a politician and the president of our beautiful nation.

Furthermore, why do I believe this is about a desire to censor rather than an attempt to prevent it?

And then:

So, even though he isn't an official or a politician, he is expected to watch what he says. His moral responsibility stems from the fact that, as an actor, part of his income comes via a contract (which I assume isn't a standard employment contract) with a theater funded by the city, and since the city is a local government unit within the United States, essentially, the state is paying René. Following this logic, a janitor wouldn't be allowed to express an opinion publicly either if he works as a contractor sweeping floors at a stadium, simply because sports teams are funded by taxpayer dollars and the man is effectively on the government payroll.

Finally, because of all this, he shouldn't "contribute to negative societal trends," but rather "work for the general welfare." It seems "negative societal trends" are apparently created whenever someone dares to speak up against the nationalist-conservative mainstream. Thus, the issue isn't what René sings (about which he may or may not be right), but rather that his singing points it out. Should we stone the boy who shouts "the emperor has no clothes" just because he took a lollipop from the table without asking and shouldn't be helping people realize the emperor is naked?

In my view, deleting posts—which, having been done thousands of times, is the most standard moderator action to prevent a discussion from spiraling or being derailed—was entirely justified.

Maybe this could help 🕺
http://www.renebitorajac.com/?q=node/53
crimsonjackal63 crimsonjackal63 Active Member
55 messages
joined Mar 2012
#20 ·
Nicole Vaughn70 said:Maybe this could help 🕺
http://www.renebitorajac.com/?q=node/53

I ovo:
CHICAGO — A famous actor René Bitorajac He’s heading back to the local municipal court soon—all because of that old parking lot blowout at the Los Angeles Convention Center back in April 2004, when... So, some parking attendant named Ivica Suton ended up with a broken arm—thanks to someone using a metal rod. Just another day in paradise, I guess.

René Bitorajac is...
It’s already because of that attack on Suton. Sentenced to ten months of probation with a three-year suspended term....which basically means they aren't allowed to commit a crime during that window. Now, Suton—that actor—is actually out there demanding... $20 Regarding the compensation claim.

René Bitorajac is at it again—this time making waves around the local fairgrounds. It’s honestly becoming a bit of a pattern, isn't it? He’s always stirring the pot, and frankly, I can't tell if he's doing it for the laughs or just to see how much chaos he can cause before someone steps in. He’s got that specific way of leaning into the controversy—kind of blunt, kind of loud—that makes you want to either cheer or roll your eyes, depending on how much coffee you've had. This latest stunt at the fair is classic René; he knows exactly which buttons to push to get everyone talking. It’s all part of the act, I suppose, but man, it definitely keeps things interesting. Just my 2 cents.

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