Hero

It’s pure eyecandy propaganda. I mean, visually, the movie looks absolutely stunning, but I also find the whole "collective over the individual" rhetoric that Hero pushes to be incredibly hard to swallow.

casualotter21 said:Maybe it is a case of style over substance, but even so, it serves as a perfect blueprint for how movies like this ought to be made.

To me, the movie feels like visual poetry, though I wouldn't go so far as to say the plot—the actual meat of the story—is just there to give Yimou's and Doyle's stylistic flourishes something to hang onto.

What really grabbed me was the historical and political layer—specifically the figure of the emperor acting as the "unifier of all under the sky" (is that how they translated it?) and the way an assassin is sacrificed for a "higher purpose." It’s a fascinating dynamic, even if I can see why some people might interpret it through a slightly... well, let's say *questionable* ideological lens.
😁

...
Inache, what "two, two and a half hours" are you talking about? 😕
The film is only 98 minutes long. The original cut runs maybe ten or twenty minutes longer than that.

At tonight's closing ceremony for the Olympic Games, the spotlight shifts to Beijing as they prepare to host the next games, and get this—one of the creative minds behind their performance is none other than the director of Hero, Zhang Yimou... who's claiming there will be about 250 dancers involved, with choreography heavily inspired by the vibes of "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" and "Hero" itself. 🙂

casualotter21 said:Potejto - potato 😁

Let me rephrase that...

It actually caught me off guard that there wasn't any flashy, over-the-top fighting—just pure swordplay—so I figured it might be a slight departure from the typical wuxia style.

I ended up reading an interview with the director, and he mentioned that he didn't really want to stick to the usual genre tropes—mostly because he doesn't even know them that well—but rather wanted this to be his own personal take on wuxia.

Has anyone actually sat down to watch Yimou's House of Flying Daggers yet?

Honestly, it feels like Miramax kept Hero stuck in distribution limbo for so long that the director managed to squeeze in another entire movie before we even got a chance to see it.

During tonight's closing ceremony of the Olympic Games, Beijing will be showcased as the upcoming host, and one of the creative minds behind their performance is the director of Hero, Zhang Yimou... who mentioned there will be about 250 dancers, with choreography inspired by "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" and "Hero."

Was Krešimir Dolenčić just too expensive for them? 😁😁😁

"unifier of all under the sky" (is that how they translated it?) and the idea of an assassin sacrificing themselves for a "higher cause." It’s quite a fascinating concept, though I can certainly see why some might interpret it as being somewhat... well... let's just say it leans toward a certain fascist ideology.

Well, if we look back about 2,000 years, there were these six different kingdoms that were essentially "unified," leading to the declaration of the first Chinese empire around 223 B.C., if my memory serves me right. That kind of thing wasn't achieved through polite gestures... it was more like that whole "unifier of all under the sky" business.
There is another rather impressive film starring Gong Li titled "Emperor and the Assassin" that deals with similar historical themes—it focuses on an assassination attempt against the very first emperor of China. It runs nearly three hours long and acts as a massive historical spectacle, portraying the emperor as someone quite... unstable. (If I recall correctly, the film won the Golden Palm at Cannes in 1999)

Has anyone had a chance to see Yimou's House of Flying Daggers?

That film actually just premiered in Beijing, maybe last month or early this month, if my memory serves me correctly... Apparently, the crowds are massive, with theaters completely sold out! I believe they started showing it in Japan around the same time as well. It might take a little while before it makes its way to other parts of the world, though from what I've heard, the rights for a USA release have already been snapped up (it was actually quite similar with Hero, which ended up sitting on the shelf for a very long time)... Personally, I think I might enjoy House of Flying Daggers even more; it seems to align a bit better with my own tastes—it feels a bit punchier, perhaps less focused on pure cinematic "beauty," and it stars one of my absolute favorites, Andy Lau.

Richard Hernandez13 said:Allow me to put that another way...
It actually caught me off guard that there wasn't any heavy flirting in the movie—just constant sword fighting. It made me wonder if they were trying to make a slight departure from the usual wuxia tropes.

From what I gather—and I don't claim to know much—the whole point of wuxia is that characters can fight and fly. How they choose to handle those fights is entirely up to the directors. Though, from what I've seen in those gravity-defying flicks, swords tend to show up pretty often in the fray. That is, assuming they aren't busy throwing poison vials, using blowguns, unleashing snakes, or utilizing rusty dungeon hooks, ripping half-ton boulders out of the ground with one man in each hand, or even just a needle and thread. I honestly fear what the Chinese might do once CGI effects become even more pervasive in these films. 😬

It’s an interesting point; while I can certainly see how some might interpret certain ideas as being, well... slightly fascist. 😁

Well, if we’re going to split hairs—though I wouldn't go so far as calling it fascist—the film definitely leans into some pretty undemocratic ideals. It prioritizes the cast over everything else, operating on this premise where the individual is expected to sacrifice themselves for the collective, even though that collective offers nothing in return besides empty talk about "order and peace." How incredibly convenient. You see it clearly in the character dynamics: on one hand, you have these superhuman individuals capable of wiping out entire armies single-handedly, and on the other, you just have faceless masses of insignificant, pathetic people. Not that anyone should get the wrong idea, mind you; they’ve made sure that even these powerful figures aren't exempt from dying if it serves the Higher Powers and Honor.

Anyway, it’s interesting to note that quite a few wuxia films I've watched end on a tragic note. That works fine in movies like Tiger and Dragon, Mouse, or Hero, where they constantly dwell on love and a noble death, weaving that message seamlessly into the plot. But in some of the lower-quality films I've sat through, the unhappy ending feels just as forced and clumsy as the happy endings you see in certain Western films. Believe me, it's a sight to behold: an unbelievable tragedy where you can tell the screenwriter just screwed the characters solely so they could claim, "See, sacrifice is always good," even if they had to swallow total nonsense to get there. One prime example:

In "Swordsman 2," Jet Li finds himself caught in a mess where he has to back rebels fighting an evil mandarin. This guy is basically losing his edge by obsessively studying that "haircut pose essence," becoming more feminine by the day, all while trying to seize power using a massive Dutch cannon and a crew of Japanese Gypsies in China.

…

Work with me here, everyone. I’m just recounting the plot based on how I read it from the subtitles in the movie.

Basically, through a series of random events, Jet Li and some woman fight off a villainous transvestite to rescue an old geezer who had been betrayed and stripped of his "haircut pose essence." This old guy, dressed in rags with a massive beard, has spent the last year hanging by chains hooked directly into his hips. Once Jet Li finally frees him, the old man spends the rest of the movie doing nothing but obsessively playing with those same chains and hip hooks. Talk about morbid obsessions. Strike one.

gentlejackal16 keeps going: while they’re trying to patch up his wounds, his students have to collect their own blood just to feed him because the guy refuses to lose a single drop of his own. And then you have his blood leaking out of the side of his mouth like drool. Okay, strike two.

Then, bathed in this bloody, crimson light, they film "Evil Captain Krick" from a low angle just to make him look even more grotesque. The old geezer starts ranting about how he’s going to get his revenge—HE’S GOING TO GET REVENGE, I TELL YOU, HAHAHAHA!111. You're outta here!

Naturally, once the villainous transvestite is finally taken out, the old guy unleashes a terror just as intense as the villain himself—if not worse—by slaughtering everyone who stood by them, including fifteen-year-olds. And what does Jet Li do? He and some woman just walk away because it isn't their fight. The message: "Life is a bitch, and then you die because heroes are too much of a coward to face a tyrant."

Inache, what "two, two and a half hours" are you talking about? 😕
The movie is only 98 minutes long.

Ah! *That's* why it felt so short! 😁

casualotter21 said:…
Bear with me, everyone. I’m honestly just recounting the plot based on how I read it from the subtitles during the movie.

😁

It’s probably a good thing you included that disclaimer, because after reading your first sentence, I genuinely thought we were dealing with your own "expanded" interpretation of what happened in the film. 😁

...
Anyway, Miramax ended up cutting those ten to twenty minutes just to make the film more palatable for Americans. They trimmed out certain segments that might have caused confusion—things like the deeper connection between calligraphy and swordsmanship, along with some other "undemocratic" vibes toward the end. 😁
I actually caught an article in the New York Times mentioning that in the US versions, the Emperor was translated as "unifier of our land" rather than "unifier of all under the sky." 😁

Word on the street is that Weinstein agreed to distribute the full, uncut version if they put "Quentin Tarantino presents:" on the poster (since QT is such a huge fan of the film and the whole genre).
I saw it at a previous MFF, and they were showing a shorter cut back then (it had subtitles, which means it was already polished for distribution).

Now I’m curious, how long is the runtime for this version playing in our local theaters? (Though I suspect it's probably the exact same print).

This movie is absolutely gorgeous, seriously one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. Half the film looks like nothing but stunning moving photography. Once I figure out where that lake with those incredible hills is, I'm heading there for a vacation.

But honestly, if a movie like this were made in the States—you know, about people sacrificing themselves for a higher cause or lovers dying together—everyone would just write it off as some cheesy flick. I can't imagine people taking something like that seriously here. But since it's from the Chinese region, it totally works. From what we've learned about their culture, the collective matters way more to them than the individual. Meanwhile, over here in the West, it feels like we've kind of forgotten those "romantic" concepts, like sacrificing everything for the greater good or dying for love.
It’s interesting, too, because you can draw a parallel between the emperor and, say, someone like a modern-day tough-as-nails political leader. Both unify tribes that otherwise would never get along, doing it through a firm, almost tyrannical hand. I wonder if Americans noticed that.

Sophia Brown78 said:This film is absolutely stunning, truly one of the most beautiful pieces of cinema I have ever seen. For half the runtime, it feels less like a movie and more like a series of breathtaking moving photographs.

Maybe I've already sent this, but here it is again. For whoever cares, here you go. Some stills from the movie..

Keep in mind that there are quite a few of them, so it might take a moment for the page to load.

Honestly, if a movie like this were produced in the West—focusing on people sacrificing themselves for a higher cause or lovers dying together—everyone would just dismiss it as a cheesy melodrama. It’s hard to imagine Americans taking that kind of stuff seriously anymore. But since it’s from China, it actually works. From what we understand about their culture, the collective holds more weight than the individual. Meanwhile, here in the States, it feels like we've completely lost touch with those "romantic" ideals, like sacrificing everything for the greater good or dying for love.

As far as I know, something like Lord of the Rings does a perfectly fine job of exploring those epic ideals of justice and truth, so I haven't heard anyone complaining that those parts felt naive. I’ve certainly run into critics claiming the scenes are boring, too long, or unfaithful to the books, but I haven't encountered that specific complaint.

Setting aside how great an example Lord of the Rings is, I really think it all comes down to the director's skill in portraying such weighty ideals. It is far easier to churn out a cynical film that mocks everything than it is to craft a serious work that presents certain values with genuine dignity. When you actually do the job right, you get a masterpiece like Hero. When you fail, you end up with something like Troy.

It's true that we in the West have lost any sense of romanticism regarding the idea of sacrificing oneself for one's nation. World War I and fascism stripped away any allure from nationalist ideology, just as Stalin and his crew destroyed the appeal of the communist utopia. We've learned the hard way that people who parade around with grand ideals are usually nothing more than massive hypocrites and scumbags. 😢 And now, I find myself descending into a full-blown rant...

It is interesting how one can draw a parallel between an emperor and someone like Saddam Hussein. Both managed to unite tribes that otherwise would never have been brought together, doing so through nothing but a firm, tyrannical grip. I wonder if Americans have noticed this.

Perhaps that parallel isn't just reserved for Hussein, but applies to heaps of statesmen throughout history. Time and again, we see examples of commanders who used sheer force to unify nations, essentially bullying them into accepting their specific worldview. It’s nothing new under the sky.

Richard Hernandez13 said:😁
It’s a good thing you included that disclaimer; after reading your first sentence, I was honestly worried we were about to dive into your "extended" interpretation of the movie's plot. 😁

It’s arguably the most beautiful film, but I am certainly not. Everything I just mentioned actually makes its way into the movie. The plot is bizarre, and the English subtitles are an absolute disaster. They actually use terms like "Japanese Gypsies." 😬

Word on the street is that Weinstein agreed to distribute the uncut version on the condition that they put "Quentin Tarantino presents:" on the poster (since QT is such a massive fan of the film and the genre).

Yeah, I caught a glimpse of Quentin Tarantino at the Hero premiere on the Red Carpet . Any idea what he actually thinks of it? I can easily picture him just getting lost in the movie. Just a fellow freak from the local video store. 😬

A masterpiece. Period.👍

So, I spent some time diving deep into the digital rabbit hole to clear up all this confusion regarding the different cuts of the movie.

The 96-minute cutis actually the version that was released in China and is what's being shown to the rest of the world now. There was an earlier assembly—somewhere between 108 and 118 minutes, depending on which source you believe—that was roughly edited during post-production before it ever hit theaters. Some people claim this was done at Weinstein's request, since that shorter runtime is much more palatable for American theater owners.
There’s also plenty of gossip suggesting that before the US premiere, Miramax wanted to cut the film down even further (down to about 70 minutes!), but that's when Tarantino stepped in and insisted that the integral version be the one we see. That's where the whole "QT presents..." credit comes from.

As for that 108/118-minute cut, it was really only released on DVD (kind of like an extended edition) within the Chinese region.

I've seen some people rambling about a 130-minute version too, but honestly, I've already lost my patience trying to track all this down.🙂

casualotter21 said:It’s true that we in the West have lost that sense of romanticism—that ideal of sacrificing oneself for the nation. World War I and fascism effectively killed any appeal found in nationalist ideology.

What on earth...

I have to wonder, how much does a ticket cost to get to this version of reality you're living in, where there’s absolutely no allure left in nationalist ideology for "us in the West"?

But, if I may steer things back to the actual topic, let's look at an example from the world of cinema: Braveheart.

Elizabeth Harris6 said:WTF? How much does a ticket cost to get to your little bubble where "us in the West" holds zero appeal within nationalist ideology?

Fair point, I suppose. I momentarily forgot that the people I cite as references are actually just geeks rather than the general public.

Brenda Gomez62 said:...but honestly, that whole "collective over the individual" rhetoric that Hero keeps pushing on us? It’s just incredibly hard to wrap my head around.

🙄 Man, it's honestly wild... those Chinese people two and a half thousand years ago weren't exactly liberal at all.
We're talking about legends here. People who are just... massive. And honestly? If you're someone small-minded, it’s totally impossible for you to wrap your head around it. It’s just completely unbelievable to you when someone actually reaches that level.
And now I see in the later posts that it's all just "fascism." 🙄 Look, you gotta read Nietzsche if you want to actually wrap your head around tragedy and what it means to be a truly great human being. Plus, he gives you the lowdown on those "last men"—you know, those tiny-minded people who just settle for the bare minimum.

So, what exactly is this "collective" these people are sacrificing themselves for? Is it the nation? The emperor? The party?

"All under the sky" is just... something else entirely.

mistyfox812 said:"All under the sky" really is something else entirely.

Well, thank you. You're far too kind.

Honestly, the Chinese are unstoppable! We just don't get it yet. They’re going to take over everything.
🙏 🙏 🙏 CHINESE PEOPLE!!!!

mistyfox812 said:'All under the sky' just carries a different weight entirely.

Actually, "All under the sky" was basically an old-school way of referring to China.

Back then, there was this slightly chauvinistic mindset where people believed their nation was the only one that truly mattered in the entire world (you know, everything under the sky).

Richard Hernandez13 said:"All Under the Sky" is actually just an old-school way of referring to China.

Basically, back in the day, people there had this slightly chauvinistic idea that their nation was the only one that actually mattered on the planet (you know, "all under the sky").

Look, "all under the sky" is just an ancient term for the world. Before that point, there wasn't even a concept of "China" or a specific nation to claim such a wild title, let alone a single state being the only one that counts. When the Emperor unified "all under the sky," he was essentially unifying the entire world—meaning all the civilized nations known at the time.
The movie's plot is actually pretty straightforward. If it isn't obvious that sacrificing oneself for "all under the sky" means sacrificing for peace in the whole world (the entire world they knew), then honestly, someone's brainwashing is seriously clouding their ability to understand what's happening.