Offside Chat Archives (2014-2021)

Most people don't keep cats around to deal with mice anymore; they just want something to play with when they get home. I guess saying they're for pest control is a stretch, since maybe 95% of city cats will never even spot a mouse in their lives. It's kind of like saying dogs exist to help people hunt, when probably 99% of them have never caught anything more significant than a tennis ball. I suppose the whole process of domesticating these animals started for reasons that just don't apply to modern urban life. Nowadays, pets are really just a way for us to have some fun.

Paul Sanders5 said:If the owner kicks the bucket, the dog would just sit there howling until it finally gave up the ghost. Then the cat would probably eat you, and then find its own way out.

Small tweak 🐔

Jessica Gonzalez said:I feel like this is all a bit much; it's like discovering air instead of hot water. Dogs descended from wolf-like animals that lived in groups for thousands of years—communicating, hunting, eating, sleeping, mating, playing, and everything else. They have the bodies of hunters and led very dynamic lives with psycho-physical qualities sufficient to make them apex predators in their territory. Now, some institute full of people who need to write doctoral theses wants to measure their intelligence by having them pick toys in a circle. These animals have the intelligence to hunt you down and eat you, not to pick out toys. We are trying to measure human-like behavior in non-human animals; I guess what we call "intelligence" is just something we invented to measure exactly what we're looking for. I think I've mentioned this on the forum before, but in California, there are pine trees that are 5,000 to 10,000 years old. They don't know how to pick toys or solve crosswords, but they'll outlive anyone who does. That's their "intelligence." Even after 50 years of studying dolphins, humans still can't communicate with them because we insist on them talking to us, when dolphins don't see "communication" or "conversation" the way we do. They are aquatic animals with a totally unique lifestyle, way of thinking, and method of communication that evolved to suit life underwater. But some institute really wants them to talk to us—I guess why?

Even 15,000 years ago, your ancestors had that exact same "intelligence"—just hunting and scavenging to stay alive.

You're comparing a wolf's survival instincts in the wild to actual human cognitive abilities. It's not about how much animals act like us—it's about the capacity for logical thought. Those are two totally different tools.

You ask about the purpose of a dog waiting half the day for its owner, but what about the purpose of people sitting on their couches all day watching mindless garbage on TV? Or staring into nothingness... or living like plants in nursing homes, serving life sentences in prison, or just existing in the grave-like cells of their own lost souls?

Jessica Gonzalez said:Most people don't keep cats around to deal with mice anymore; they just want something to play with when they get home. I guess saying they're for pest control is a stretch, since maybe 95% of city cats will never even spot a mouse in their lives. It's kind of like saying dogs exist to help people hunt, when probably 99% of them have never caught anything more significant than a tennis ball. I suppose the whole process of domesticating these animals started for reasons that just don't apply to modern urban life. Nowadays, pets are really just a way for us to have some fun.

Before those 5% of urban cats even have a chance to spot a mouse, they're already uninterested. Just because you can't see or hear mice doesn't mean they aren't there. They are all around us, but we lack the senses to detect them the way a cat does. Their hunting instinct is far more pronounced than most dogs. Even the smallest cat will hunt. For instance, in the US alone, cats kill over 20 billion mammals annually. Since I was a kid, I've had cats with outdoor access that would regularly leave dead mice, rats, or birds on my windowsill. My last cat was practically a Terminator. She'd bring in mice, rats the size of small dogs, pigeons, doves, and even once a crow. She devoured everything. You mentioned that living within four walls isn't ideal for animals, no matter how well we care for them. Even though my cat had access to the outdoors, you could tell she belonged out there, not inside. When I moved her to my parents' place on an island where she could roam freely, she truly came alive... she lived the rest of her days on this planet exactly the way she was meant to...

Larry Fox5 said:Even 15,000 years ago, your ancestors had that exact same "intelligence"—just hunting and scavenging to stay alive.

You're comparing a wolf's survival instincts in the wild to actual human cognitive abilities. It's not about how much animals act like us—it's about the capacity for logical thought. Those are two totally different tools.

You ask about the purpose of a dog waiting half the day for its owner, but what about the purpose of people sitting on their couches all day watching mindless garbage on TV? Or staring into nothingness... or living like plants in nursing homes, serving life sentences in prison, or just existing in the grave-like cells of their own lost souls?

I think you’re a smart guy, and maybe you realize you actually answered your own question. The idea of what it truly means to be alive or to live is pretty twisted these days. Most people—myself included, I guess—live in a bubble of illusions, surrounded by rules, customs, and methods that have absolutely nothing to do with being a living human being. Most things society believes today won't even matter in a hundred years. A century ago, hardly anyone had pets, and most people thought it was perfectly rational to kill them on a whim. It was the same people, with the same supposed intelligence and logical reasoning.

The way pets are domesticated and forced to live within four walls surrounded by mundane nonsense is the same way humans live. People haven't always lived this way; for most of our biological history, we lived quite differently. Our minds and bodies evolved for a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, not to spend all day watching Netflix or sports on TV, or reading books. Both animals and humans have highly developed logical reasoning skills because they need them to survive in the wild. Some PhD at Max Planck doesn't need to prove that dogs can think. That institute, that research, and what they measure are all human inventions that don't serve much purpose other than helping people kill time in the emptiness of modern life. And honestly, we don't have to bother poor dogs with all that nonsense. They already live where we tell them to, eat what we tell them to, go to the bathroom where we tell them to, and mate only if we allow it. We have dogs because we enjoy it; they fill some void in our lives, yet we never ask those dogs or cats for their opinion. We don't ask cows, goats, pigs, or poultry anything either before they're processed in factories. That’s the plain truth regarding animals. Humans are the ones who claim the right to create and shape these animals to suit our needs. Whether that need is food, leather, or a toy after work doesn't really matter. Animals aren't consulted; they're just tools for our convenience.

Anyway, it's funny someone actually pointed that out. In Washington, D.C., if there’s a bit of smog for three days, people act like it’s the literal end of the world and the news won't stop talking about it. Meanwhile, cities like Gary, Indiana, have been breathing in filth for twenty years straight and nobody even blinks.

Hey everyone, breathing deep today ☕

Jessica Gonzalez said:I think you’re a smart guy, and maybe you realize you actually answered your own question. The idea of what it truly means to be alive or to live is pretty twisted these days. Most people—myself included, I guess—live in a bubble of illusions, surrounded by rules, customs, and methods that have absolutely nothing to do with being a living human being. Most things society believes today won't even matter in a hundred years. A century ago, hardly anyone had pets, and most people thought it was perfectly rational to kill them on a whim. It was the same people, with the same supposed intelligence and logical reasoning.

The way pets are domesticated and forced to live within four walls surrounded by mundane nonsense is the same way humans live. People haven't always lived this way; for most of our biological history, we lived quite differently. Our minds and bodies evolved for a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, not to spend all day watching Netflix or sports on TV, or reading books. Both animals and humans have highly developed logical reasoning skills because they need them to survive in the wild. Some PhD at Max Planck doesn't need to prove that dogs can think. That institute, that research, and what they measure are all human inventions that don't serve much purpose other than helping people kill time in the emptiness of modern life. And honestly, we don't have to bother poor dogs with all that nonsense. They already live where we tell them to, eat what we tell them to, go to the bathroom where we tell them to, and mate only if we allow it. We have dogs because we enjoy it; they fill some void in our lives, yet we never ask those dogs or cats for their opinion. We don't ask cows, goats, pigs, or poultry anything either before they're processed in factories. That’s the plain truth regarding animals. Humans are the ones who claim the right to create and shape these animals to suit our needs. Whether that need is food, leather, or a toy after work doesn't really matter. Animals aren't consulted; they're just tools for our convenience.

So what’s even the point?
This honestly reminds me of that one episode of South Park where Butters—or was it Marsh?!—goes full Emo. 😁

So you actually think life needs to have some grand purpose? That’s just another one of your little fabrications—just a concept you've cooked up because you want it to be true. Honestly, we're just biological beings on this planet like everything else. We're born, we struggle to survive, and then we die, just like every other living thing in the natural cycle of this world.

The old ways still rule everything—it’s just the law of the jungle, where the strongest person in the room calls the shots, and honestly, looking at the world right now, we're basically just leaning into that raw power and taking whatever advantages come our way. It’s nothing groundbreaking, really. Symbiosis would happen perfectly fine without us even being on this planet, because nature doesn't actually care about our existence. Wolves and humans were both smart enough to figure out mutual benefit back in the day, much like how cats work, but let's not act like that's some massive revelation. Other animals have their own little companions too, so what's the big deal?

Look, if we weren't built for this specific era of life, it’s pretty obvious—we're all still lugging around the bodies our ancestors left us with—but what exactly are we supposed to do now? Go back in time? Honestly, even though I find myself agreeing with a lot of people on this, especially given where humanity stands right now, we really should be more than this, considering we actually possess enough moral backbone and intellectual capacity to know better.

I honestly can't believe that in 99.9% of all human origin simulations, we always end up at the exact same "solution," which makes me think we'd hit that same wall even if they were simulating entirely different species.

Bottom line—everything we deal with is just a human concept.

Dogs and cats, rebels and partisans from ESPN 🙏

brightpilot6 said:Dogs and cats, rebels and partisans from ESPN 🙏

Our leader is Mao Zedong ☕

But take a look at your hero here:

Jessica Gonzalez said:Most people don't keep cats around to deal with mice anymore; they just want something to play with when they get home. I guess saying they're for pest control is a stretch, since maybe 95% of city cats will never even spot a mouse in their lives. It's kind of like saying dogs exist to help people hunt, when probably 99% of them have never caught anything more significant than a tennis ball. I suppose the whole process of domesticating these animals started for reasons that just don't apply to modern urban life. Nowadays, pets are really just a way for us to have some fun.

Try explaining the lack of mice to my Cat.
He probably hunts by instinct alone, bringing home expensive little "gifts" consisting of the neighbor's sparrows and canaries.
Right in the heart of Washington, D.C.
Trust me, there are plenty of mice around here.

Larry Fox5 said:Even 15,000 years ago, your ancestors had that exact same "intelligence"—just hunting and scavenging to stay alive.

You're comparing a wolf's survival instincts in the wild to actual human cognitive abilities. It's not about how much animals act like us—it's about the capacity for logical thought. Those are two totally different tools.

You ask about the purpose of a dog waiting half the day for its owner, but what about the purpose of people sitting on their couches all day watching mindless garbage on TV? Or staring into nothingness... or living like plants in nursing homes, serving life sentences in prison, or just existing in the grave-like cells of their own lost souls?

Dean, Larry Fox5 has gone quite deep here.

Matthew Young35 said:Try explaining the lack of mice to my Cat.
He probably hunts by instinct alone, bringing home expensive little "gifts" consisting of the neighbor's sparrows and canaries.
Right in the heart of Washington, D.C.
Trust me, there are plenty of mice around here.

Well, yours is in that lucky 5% and actually spotted a mouse.

Jessica Gonzalez said:Well, yours is in that lucky 5% and actually spotted a mouse.

Honestly, they just drag him out alive from somewhere and torture him until his heart gives out.
I have to admit, it looks incredibly cruel.
The last time, I snatched the mouse away after it confessed everything and just let it loose in the backyard.
The Cat wouldn't even speak to me for two days after that.

Matthew Young35 said:They’re different because they come from different backgrounds. Dogs are pack animals; they listen to a "master." Cats don't give a damn about having an "owner"—they just force you to adapt to them, rather than adapting themselves to you.

I find their selective eating habits fascinating. A dog will basically swallow anything that crosses its path, whereas a cat will sit there and overthink a meal three times before deciding if it's worthy.

neonfalcon16 said:I find their selective eating habits fascinating. A dog will basically swallow anything that crosses its path, whereas a cat will sit there and overthink a meal three times before deciding if it's worthy.

Well, cats are strictly carnivores.
There’s actually a theory that this happened because of a genetic mutation where they lost the ability to taste sweetness, effectively locking them into a meat-only diet.
On the flip side, dogs can survive on nothing but potatoes, scraps, and other junk food. Cats don't have that luxury; if they want to live, they need meat.

Cats are more independent, while dogs are needy. It comes down to their biological programming, not some measure of potential intelligence.

Dogs are easier to train. If you want to prep someone for a fight, you'll get much further with a dog.
As for cats, you can just take that natural aloofness of theirs and shove it somewhere else.

Dogs are submissive to humans. Logically, that makes them the better option if we're judging based on human intelligence. ☕

Ashley Bailey6 said:Cats are more independent, while dogs are needy. It comes down to their biological programming, not some measure of potential intelligence.

Dogs are easier to train. If you want to prep someone for a fight, you'll get much further with a dog.
As for cats, you can just take that natural aloofness of theirs and shove it somewhere else.

Dogs are submissive to humans. Logically, that makes them the better option if we're judging based on human intelligence. ☕

A fight? Give me a break.
Obviously, if a cat is fighting a dog, that natural "aloofness" won't mean much when the cat is fifteen times smaller.

Unfortunately, there are videos online showing fights between equally sized cats and dogs.
They are revolting.
The people who organized and filmed those should be thrown against a wall.
Imagine breeding a Pitbull for fighting only to have a cat take it out in seconds.

Matthew Young35 said:A fight? Give me a break.
Obviously, if a cat is fighting a dog, that natural "aloofness" won't mean much when the cat is fifteen times smaller.

Unfortunately, there are videos online showing fights between equally sized cats and dogs.
They are revolting.
The people who organized and filmed those should be thrown against a wall.
Imagine breeding a Pitbull for fighting only to have a cat take it out in seconds.

I don't even want to watch that or think about it.

I’m just speaking from an efficiency standpoint. A dog will master complex actions for a higher goal much faster than a Cat.
A Cat is selfish, but ultimately, the dog comes out on top.

Besides.
When a dog dies, it’s a tragedy. When a Cat dies, it’s just statistics.
How many Cats end up under tires versus how many dogs?

So, which one is actually more intelligent is definitely up for debate, if it's even a question at all.☕

Matthew Young35 said:A fight? Give me a break.
Obviously, if a cat is fighting a dog, that natural "aloofness" won't mean much when the cat is fifteen times smaller.

Unfortunately, there are videos online showing fights between equally sized cats and dogs.
They are revolting.
The people who organized and filmed those should be thrown against a wall.
Imagine breeding a Pitbull for fighting only to have a cat take it out in seconds.

I honestly don't know how anyone can even watch that stuff, and I don't get why some "normal" sites would ever host such filth.

On the flip side, Cats aren't actually that helpless compared to dogs. My brother has a Stafford that grew up with one Cat and they still play together to this day—but he was always terrified of older Cats and wouldn't even go near them.
The Cat sensed that, too, and intentionally baited him. It would just sit on the stairs and block his way—he couldn't get past.
One hiss from the Cat and the Stafford is immediately hiding under the table.

Then again, about 20 years ago, I had a Doberman that was absolute poison for Cats. My neighbor's Cat narrowly escaped death twice by bolting up a tree at the last second. Once, she fled into the deer woods, and other times she'd come back with bloody mouths from catching lizards she'd obviously slaughtered.
Even though she was a sporting dog that needed tons of exercise because of those intense hunting instincts, I just couldn't let her off the leash anymore.

I never had those kinds of issues with Sheepdogs. They're three times smarter and more subtle than any hunting breed.

Could someone perhaps provide a brief summary of what Jessica Gonzalez has been posting about lately?