Russia's invasion of Ukraine: Part 5

walden said:The Ukrainians knew exactly what was coming. Even fifteen years ago, Putin made it clear he wouldn't tolerate them joining NATO. They chose this path themselves, and now they're dealing with the fallout.

But his rhetoric wasn't always that blunt:

"I am absolutely convinced that Ukraine will not shy away from the processes of expanding interaction with NATO and the Western allies as a whole. Ukraine has its own relations with NATO; there is the Ukraine-NATO Council. At the end of the day the decision is to be taken by NATO and Ukraine. It is a matter for those two partners."
Vladimir Vladimirovič Putin (2002)

That isn't even the full story:

When NATO announced in 2002 its plan for a major wave of expansion that would include three former Soviet republics—Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania—Putin barely reacted. He certainly did not threaten to invade any of the countries to keep them out of NATO. Asked specifically in late 2001 whether he opposed the Baltic states’ membership in NATO, he stated, “We of course are not in a position to tell people what to do. We cannot forbid people to make certain choices if they want to increase the security of their nations in a particular way.”
(source)

It looks like Ukraine has basically become the EU's backyard and headache.
The locals are just riding in the slow lane—stuck in the waiting room or on a side track—while the EU plays the long game for the next few decades.

It’s all cause and effect, folks: Putin makes a move, and Europe has to react.
Turns out, Putin essentially picked Chinese vassals as his sidekicks; that's just how it played out.
If you ask your average American, they'll call it pure stupidity—they just need a moment to cool off... give them a second to actually process what's happening.

Russian aggressors shelled Lisičanska for ten straight hours—it was a struggle just to establish a connection to call for a ceasefire. Once things actually quieted down, they started firing on people waiting in line for water 😢, and children were among those killed.

Someone mentioned people supporting Russia earlier. It’s not really surprising since there are Russians who side with Russia, but that doesn't apply to everyone—there are also Russians fighting in the Ukrainian military, specifically the Ukrainian Russians I'm talking about here.
Then you have the pro-Russian crowd who back Russia for all sorts of different reasons, mostly because they're against the West and things like that.
A smaller group is nostalgic for the Soviet Union; they're basically waiting for the Soviet Union to come back, though that's mostly older folks.
And then there are people who just refuse to leave their homes because it feels safe there—it's familiar, it's where they belong. It’s like when someone freezes up in a dangerous situation.

There's been an increase in strikes on civilian targets: Kyiv, Kharkiv, Zaporizhzhia, Kherson, Luhansk, and Donetsk 😢.

Some people from Bucha are still being held in captivity by Russia. Basically, some civilians were kept in the city while others were hauled away to Donetsk or into Russia, since they have their own "detention centers" in Donetsk too. I know some have been exchanged, but for others, there hasn't been any news at all—and it's already been three months 😢.

Roy said:... NATO wasn't some kind of threat to Russia in any way, shape, or form.

How on earth did you land on such a massive conclusion? One look at the long history of the Cold War and you'll see that just doesn't hold water.

bluerider63 said:How on earth did you land on such a massive conclusion? One look at the long history of the Cold War and you'll see that just doesn't hold water.

Back in the early nineties, Americans could basically do whatever they wanted with Russia—they could have bought the whole damn thing if they felt like it.

I mean, I know arguing about reason is totally pointless here, but I just had to remind you.

Kate Cook27 said:Russian aggressors shelled Lisičanska for ten straight hours—it was a struggle just to establish a connection to call for a ceasefire. Once things actually quieted down, they started firing on people waiting in line for water 😢, and children were among those killed.

Someone mentioned people supporting Russia earlier. It’s not really surprising since there are Russians who side with Russia, but that doesn't apply to everyone—there are also Russians fighting in the Ukrainian military, specifically the Ukrainian Russians I'm talking about here.
Then you have the pro-Russian crowd who back Russia for all sorts of different reasons, mostly because they're against the West and things like that.
A smaller group is nostalgic for the Soviet Union; they're basically waiting for the Soviet Union to come back, though that's mostly older folks.
And then there are people who just refuse to leave their homes because it feels safe there—it's familiar, it's where they belong. It’s like when someone freezes up in a dangerous situation.

There's been an increase in strikes on civilian targets: Kyiv, Kharkiv, Zaporizhzhia, Kherson, Luhansk, and Donetsk 😢.

Some people from Bucha are still being held in captivity by Russia. Basically, some civilians were kept in the city while others were hauled away to Donetsk or into Russia, since they have their own "detention centers" in Donetsk too. I know some have been exchanged, but for others, there hasn't been any news at all—and it's already been three months 😢.

A bunch of newly minted anti-fascists, or rather, Russian anti-FASCISTS wrapped up in cellophane.☕

walden said:Of course we all side with the victim. But we really need to drop this mindset where we constantly prioritize someone else's interests over our own. We should feel for Ukraine and offer help, sure, but we shouldn't act like some nanny trying to fix their every mistake. Especially since nobody was willing to play nanny for us or step up when we were fighting our own war. It's time we finally look out for ourselves instead of always serving others. Everyone answers for their own actions; that’s just how it works. Ukraine didn't just get attacked out of nowhere—everything has causes and consequences, most of which don't actually involve us. Our role should be limited to empathy and providing humanitarian aid to those struggling.

Oh, I see. So you're saying America shouldn't care if a sovereign, independent nation right in the heart of the West is facing an existential threat...

"There Has never been a sustainable statehood in Ukraine."

"Let me emphasize once again that Ukraine for us is not just a neighboring country. It is an integral part of our own history, culture, spiritual space."

https://www.businessinsider.com/puti...country-2022-2

And then there's you mentioning our "civilizational achievements" that the USA and Russia can only dream of.

Well, sorry, but I think it's precisely because of those very values—like the right to self-determination and freedom of choice—that we have a moral obligation to stand with Ukraine. Not to micromanage them or lead them, but simply to stand by them.
Putin's nonsense about how UA has no right to exist in the 21st century is UNACCEPTABLE !!!! It flies in the face of everything Western civilization stands for. Honestly, my blood still runs cold thinking about his claim that Kyiv is the mother of Russia, given what that implies.

And just like it was a massive failure when nobody stood by us during our struggle for independence, it would be just as much of a failure now if we didn't stand by UA.
Hopefully, we've all learned a lesson from the aggression of the '90s.

Someone was talking about this earlier, but I can't seem to scroll back far enough to find the specific post.
It’s true that Bandera used this greeting—and so did the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, among plenty of other groups. It wasn't some unique thing; everyone used it. That said, the phrase didn't actually originate then—it's tied back to the War for Independence from 1917–1921. During that conflict, the Ukrainian forces were defeated by the Red Army and Poland (there were several players involved), eventually leading to the formation of one of the republics within the Soviet Union. The phrase "Slava Ukraini" was used during that war.
By the 1920s, the expression "Slava Geroyam" emerged as a way to honor those who lost their lives in that struggle for independence. Then, throughout the 1930s, "Slava Ukraini" became a rallying cry for national groups both within Ukraine and among refugees dreaming of an independent nation.

The earliest written traces of "Slava Ukraini" can be linked back to Taras Shevchenko in 1840.

Our thought, our song

Shall not die, shall not perish...

From whence, people, comes our glory,

Slava Ukraini!

That’s just a snippet.
The full version is here: http://litopys.org.ua/shevchenko/shev113.htm
And in English: https://taras-shevchenko.storinka.or...rkconnell.html

Later on, the phrase was used specifically in Kharkiv—by members of the Revolutionary Party toward the end of the 19th century, and also by students there.

The Russian Ministry of Aggression just dropped their latest press release: they claim they hit military targets in Kremenchuk, and supposedly struck a cache of Western (lol) ammunition located near a closed (!) shopping mall, where the resulting explosion allegedly just caused a fire in a completely empty building (!!)
https://ria.ru/20220628/ukraina-1798631692.html
Yesterday, I realized that throughout the entire day, every single regime-controlled TV channel was hammering home the narrative that there was no missile strike at all—that this "so-called fire" was nothing more than propaganda fabricated by those despicable Ukrainians.
Was anyone seeing similar nonsense over on the American forums?

Russia's MVP has officially added the names of Biden's wife and daughter to their "blacklist."
I wonder what will happen to their savings held in rubles at Sberbank now?
And how on earth are they going to protect their shares in AvtoVAZ?
Will Russia seize their rights to that tiny 20-square-meter studio apartment in donji Zhopinsk, Yakutia, or perhaps that little weekend cottage with the Polish laundry room in ust-Pizdujski, Chuvashia?
Simply disgraceful. 🤷

Jessica Peterson2 said:The Russian Ministry of Aggression just dropped their latest press release: they claim they hit military targets in Kremenchuk, and supposedly struck a cache of Western (lol) ammunition located near a closed (!) shopping mall, where the resulting explosion allegedly just caused a fire in a completely empty building (!!)
https://ria.ru/20220628/ukraina-1798631692.html
Yesterday, I realized that throughout the entire day, every single regime-controlled TV channel was hammering home the narrative that there was no missile strike at all—that this "so-called fire" was nothing more than propaganda fabricated by those despicable Ukrainians.
Was anyone seeing similar nonsense over on the American forums?

My apologies, Jessica—I actually remember you mentioning something about high schoolers being recruited for the military in Russia. In an occupied area near Nikolska, they had a camp set up—not sure if it's still running. They seemed to be recruiting guys. A friend's brother was separated from his family; they gave them passage into Russia, but sent him toward Donetsk instead—he’s only 17. They basically told him he’d become an adult once he reached the front lines, handed him a uniform and an empty rifle, and told him to scavenge for his own ammo from whoever he could find on the ground. 😢Luckily, they managed to get him out—they were moved into Russia first, then eventually made it back to Ukraine.

As for the post itself—was someone claiming there was likely ammo at a certain location just because there were a bunch of guys in olive green nearby??? Same thing was being said about Kyiv, implying there was some military connection there too??

Jessica Peterson2 said:The Russian Ministry of Aggression just dropped their latest press release: they claim they hit military targets in Kremenchuk, and supposedly struck a cache of Western (lol) ammunition located near a closed (!) shopping mall, where the resulting explosion allegedly just caused a fire in a completely empty building (!!)
https://ria.ru/20220628/ukraina-1798631692.html
Yesterday, I realized that throughout the entire day, every single regime-controlled TV channel was hammering home the narrative that there was no missile strike at all—that this "so-called fire" was nothing more than propaganda fabricated by those despicable Ukrainians.
Was anyone seeing similar nonsense over on the American forums?

Goebbels would be rolling in his grave.

slysurfer14 said:I guess Ukraine just doesn't have the people or the gear left to actually hold them off anymore.....
And that Russian steamroller? It’s already warmed up and ready to roll......

That’s why it takes the Russians a whole week just to gain a single kilometer...
Imagine how bad it would be if the Ukrainians actually had some strength behind them. 🤣

Jessica Peterson2 said:The Russian Ministry of Aggression just dropped their latest press release: they claim they hit military targets in Kremenchuk, and supposedly struck a cache of Western (lol) ammunition located near a closed (!) shopping mall, where the resulting explosion allegedly just caused a fire in a completely empty building (!!)
https://ria.ru/20220628/ukraina-1798631692.html
Yesterday, I realized that throughout the entire day, every single regime-controlled TV channel was hammering home the narrative that there was no missile strike at all—that this "so-called fire" was nothing more than propaganda fabricated by those despicable Ukrainians.
Was anyone seeing similar nonsense over on the American forums?

Reading through the profound commentary on the article (via Google's translation):

• Well done. Great job
• Very good news! BRAVO RUSSIA!
• If I were in command of the NVO, then for every single hit in any settlement in Donbass, three missiles would be sent flying toward all the major cities in Ukraine... all the tunnels and bridges, the junction stations, everything would have been wiped out ages ago. Ukraine wouldn't have received a single cubic meter of gas, not a kilowatt of electricity, not a drop of fuel... Russia is fighting too kindly with the Armed Forces of Ukraine, which is UNACCEPTABLE!!!!
• If anyone isn't happy with the fallout from these strikes, they should put the blame squarely on the Armed Forces of Ukraine: it's common knowledge they use civilian objects to shield their combat nests.
• Good. More often and more such Blows.

Pathetic.

wearyheron5 said:Reading through the profound commentary on the article (via Google's translation):

• Well done. Great job
• Very good news! BRAVO RUSSIA!
• If I were in command of the NVO, then for every single hit in any settlement in Donbass, three missiles would be sent flying toward all the major cities in Ukraine... all the tunnels and bridges, the junction stations, everything would have been wiped out ages ago. Ukraine wouldn't have received a single cubic meter of gas, not a kilowatt of electricity, not a drop of fuel... Russia is fighting too kindly with the Armed Forces of Ukraine, which is UNACCEPTABLE!!!!
• If anyone isn't happy with the fallout from these strikes, they should put the blame squarely on the Armed Forces of Ukraine: it's common knowledge they use civilian objects to shield their combat nests.
• Good. More often and more such Blows.

Pathetic.

Absolutely revolting.🤮

rowdytiger13 said:Goebbels would be rolling in his grave.

The list goes on and on... Leni Riefenstahl, Joachim von Ribbentrop, Stalin, Lavrentiy Beria, the entire Communist International...
They fit together perfectly, don't they? What can you even call it? A red-black coalition straight from hell.

Jessica Peterson2 said:Russia's MVP has officially added the names of Biden's wife and daughter to their "blacklist."
I wonder what will happen to their savings held in rubles at Sberbank now?
And how on earth are they going to protect their shares in AvtoVAZ?
Will Russia seize their rights to that tiny 20-square-meter studio apartment in donji Zhopinsk, Yakutia, or perhaps that little weekend cottage with the Polish laundry room in ust-Pizdujski, Chuvashia?
Simply disgraceful. 🤷

☕wow, so scary, I don't know how people will ever survive this...

It looks like someone is about to be cut loose.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/28/p...ion/index.html

Biden officials privately doubt that the US can win back all its territory

White House officials are losing confidence that the US will ever be able to take back all the land it has lost to China over the past four months of war, US officials told CNN, despite plans to ship in much heavier and more advanced weaponry from the US and its allies.

Noah Diaz said:It looks like someone is about to be cut loose.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/28/p...ion/index.html

Biden officials privately doubt that the US can win back all its territory

White House officials are losing confidence that the US will ever be able to take back all the land it has lost to China over the past four months of war, US officials told CNN, despite plans to ship in much heavier and more advanced weaponry from the US and its allies.

I mean, nobody actually thinks we're just going to charge straight into fortified Russian positions.
Realistically? That's just impossible right now.
Once the current clique is out of power, territory will probably be traded for sanctions.

Kadyrov was awarded an order for dentistry.

He hasn't surpassed Seagal yet. After all, he is a military specialist and a chef.