Offside Chat Archives (2014-2021)

Adam King6 said:The thing is, we’re one of the most scattered peoples on the planet. You can find us everywhere—from the US and Canada all the way down to Argentina and Australia, or even just working as expats in Germany and other parts of Europe because people had to chase a paycheck during the communist era. Almost everyone I know has a close relative living somewhere abroad.
We really don't have any moral high ground to lecture anyone about staying put in their own corner of the world—whether it's some rocky wasteland, a desert, or a jungle—just because they don't fit into our specific idea of civilization or mindset.

Go to Germany and you'll quickly see the massive difference between immigrants from the US or Poland versus people coming from Syria and Lebanon.

Personally, I know an American who uses every dirty trick in the book—call it the American way if you want—to exploit another country's economic perks. We've got all kinds of people like that.

Look, Preat doesn't have any blind spots or biases here. We see exactly what kind of extremism is running the show in those regions every single day. Of course, most people coming from those areas aren't to blame, but let’s be real—there’s a massive amount of fear in our country. When we take them in, we're essentially increasing the risk to our own kids. Don't we have every right to be afraid? And honestly, don't we have good reasons for it, too?

Walter Grant5, nobody’s arguing with what you're saying. But honestly, we moved past where they are a long time ago. To them, taking a life is just business as usual. For us? It’s absolutely sickening.

frozencobra50 said:This whole thing has absolutely nothing to do with my original post, which stated that we aren't talking about war refugees here, but economic migrants. In fact, this just proves my point. If someone can't see that, there's nothing I can do for them.

But since I'm already here airing my grievances...
Everyone has the right to fight for a better life—them, me, you. But laws exist for a reason. They are meant to be respected. Not so hordes can just swarm into Germany without a care in the world for anything else.

I find it hard to believe that if I suddenly headed to Sweden right now and told them, "Hey, I'm here to live and work, so show me some hospitality," they wouldn't just tell me, "Slow down, buddy, there's some bureaucratic red tape we need to clear first." And honestly? I probably would never even get a long-term permit in Sweden. Meanwhile, Syrians are rushing into Germany like they're under some kind of spell, crossing borders illegally because they know damn well it's the easiest way to land a decent job—or if they don't find one, they'll just sit back on €900 in state welfare with housing paid for.

You think that’s a valid point? It isn't. At most, it's relevant to you and your personal bias, because you feel sympathy for individuals who have suffered, whereas you feel nothing for those who were smart enough to leave at the right time and do everything legally. But that's just your take. At the end of the day, both groups are simply economic migrants.

Actually, it matters quite a bit. If you intend to use them as a blueprint for the migrants arriving today, then it's vital.
The point is, they left before things went south. War likely hadn't reached their doorstep yet, and they hadn't lost immediate family members. They packed up, sorted out their jobs and housing in Sweden, and moved to safety. Even if things weren't perfectly stable, they certainly weren't risking their lives to make the trip. We saw the same thing back in the States during the Homeland War—people saw the situation heating up and decided to grab their belongings and head for the USA, Germany, and so on. Both groups had a wartime element influencing their decision to emigrate, but you simply cannot compare them to the folks who were practically swept out of their homes by the war and hit the road with absolutely nothing.

loneseal said:Look, Preat doesn't have any blind spots or biases here. We see exactly what kind of extremism is running the show in those regions every single day. Of course, most people coming from those areas aren't to blame, but let’s be real—there’s a massive amount of fear in our country. When we take them in, we're essentially increasing the risk to our own kids. Don't we have every right to be afraid? And honestly, don't we have good reasons for it, too?

Walter Grant5, nobody’s arguing with what you're saying. But honestly, we moved past where they are a long time ago. To them, taking a life is just business as usual. For us? It’s absolutely sickening.

🙏

loneseal said:Look, Preat doesn't have any blind spots or biases here. We see exactly what kind of extremism is running the show in those regions every single day. Of course, most people coming from those areas aren't to blame, but let’s be real—there’s a massive amount of fear in our country. When we take them in, we're essentially increasing the risk to our own kids. Don't we have every right to be afraid? And honestly, don't we have good reasons for it, too?

Walter Grant5, nobody’s arguing with what you're saying. But honestly, we moved past where they are a long time ago. To them, taking a life is just business as usual. For us? It’s absolutely sickening.

Look, obviously we have every right to be scared and worry about our children, but we aren't going to build a better world by generalizing entire nations, peoples, or religions based on behaviors that are totally different from everything we were raised with. The core of civilization is valuing human life, the right to work, freedom of speech... things that basically don't exist in most of those countries. I get the fear of a clash of civilizations and cultures—really, I do—but don't forget they're coming into *our* backyard, which changes everything. They're subject to the same laws as you and me.

Robin Fox2 said:Africa and Asia are heading toward Europe, while we'll likely find ourselves migrating to America or Australia... tick, tock, tick, tock...

The Germans should just buy plane tickets for these refugees and send them straight to the USA. ☕

Let them deal with the mess they created.

Michelle Palmer6 totally nailed me with those arguments. I'm eating my words here. Honestly, I always figured moderators were just bored slackers with way too much time on their hands, but turns out being a mod actually sharpens your rhetoric and makes you better at arguing. I'm admitting it. Now I'm convinced that living in an environment filled with death and killing doesn't actually shape your mindset toward violence. A Norwegian is going to have the exact same predisposition toward killing as some guy from Syria. It’s true—even Norwegians had someone like Brevik, just like every little village in Syria has its own version of a "Brevik."

Thanks for the wake-up call.

Michelle Palmer6 said:Actually, it matters quite a bit. If you intend to use them as a blueprint for the migrants arriving today, then it's vital.
The point is, they left before things went south. War likely hadn't reached their doorstep yet, and they hadn't lost immediate family members. They packed up, sorted out their jobs and housing in Sweden, and moved to safety. Even if things weren't perfectly stable, they certainly weren't risking their lives to make the trip. We saw the same thing back in the States during the Homeland War—people saw the situation heating up and decided to grab their belongings and head for the USA, Germany, and so on. Both groups had a wartime element influencing their decision to emigrate, but you simply cannot compare them to the folks who were practically swept out of their homes by the war and hit the road with absolutely nothing.

🙏

Look, Gojko went way too far with those generalizations—it sounds terrible—but he’s not exactly wrong... the value placed on a human life in some Middle Eastern countries (and honestly, elsewhere too) just isn't the same as it is here in America. We can't just pretend there isn't a massive cultural gap between, say, Saudi Arabia and the US...

Larry Fox5 said:Look, obviously we have every right to be scared and worry about our children, but we aren't going to build a better world by generalizing entire nations, peoples, or religions based on behaviors that are totally different from everything we were raised with. The core of civilization is valuing human life, the right to work, freedom of speech... things that basically don't exist in most of those countries. I get the fear of a clash of civilizations and cultures—really, I do—but don't forget they're coming into *our* backyard, which changes everything. They're subject to the same laws as you and me.

We aren't fixing anything if every sane person just flees to Europe. If there’s actually enough decent, positive people left in those regions, then the issues need to be dealt with in Syria and Iran, not by dumping a massive wave of people into Europe. Those exact values you mentioned? They could be totally undermined by this "solution" some people are pushing for. ISIS won't just vanish because everyone smart leaves; if anything, it'll just make them stronger.

Robin Fox2 hit the nail on the head. Honestly, I hope little Preat doesn't ever have to run for his life from a saber or an orange jumpsuit. That's why I'm all for keeping this option to an absolute minimum—I want to take as little risk as possible with this whole thing.

Larry Fox5 said:Look, Gojko went way too far with those generalizations—it sounds terrible—but he’s not exactly wrong... the value placed on a human life in some Middle Eastern countries (and honestly, elsewhere too) just isn't the same as it is here in America. We can't just pretend there isn't a massive cultural gap between, say, Saudi Arabia and the US...

Claiming all Muslims are terrorists is a massive generalization. It takes a special kind of intellect to spout nonsense like that.

So, he's actually pretty far from the truth. Just like how it's wrong to claim those fleeing Syria are merely economic migrants—not unlike Americans heading to Canada. Or the idea that back in the 90s, only women and children were fleeing this place...

loneseal said:Michelle Palmer6 totally nailed me with those arguments. I'm eating my words here. Honestly, I always figured moderators were just bored slackers with way too much time on their hands, but turns out being a mod actually sharpens your rhetoric and makes you better at arguing. I'm admitting it. Now I'm convinced that living in an environment filled with death and killing doesn't actually shape your mindset toward violence. A Norwegian is going to have the exact same predisposition toward killing as some guy from Syria. It’s true—even Norwegians had someone like Brevik, just like every little village in Syria has its own version of a "Brevik."

Thanks for the wake-up call.

And honestly, what am I even supposed to argue against that absolute verbal diarrhea and hate speech?
The narrative is always the same: the big white man never kills anyone in cold blood, never commits war crimes, and never harbors terrorists or neo-Nazi groups. They act like we never slaughter thousands of civilians in the "Third World" during military operations to satisfy some shady, ulterior motives.

Look, I get it—there are cultural differences, and there will always be radical idiots everywhere. But this blatant generalization aimed at fueling xenophobia and hatred is just disgusting. Who exactly is it considered "normal" to kill? All Muslims? These refugees who are literally fleeing death? Why don't you just say it? Let's just turn them all around and throw them right back into the middle of a war zone since apparently, that's just their "norm."

loneseal said:We aren't fixing anything if every sane person just flees to Europe. If there’s actually enough decent, positive people left in those regions, then the issues need to be dealt with in Syria and Iran, not by dumping a massive wave of people into Europe. Those exact values you mentioned? They could be totally undermined by this "solution" some people are pushing for. ISIS won't just vanish because everyone smart leaves; if anything, it'll just make them stronger.

Robin Fox2 hit the nail on the head. Honestly, I hope little Preat doesn't ever have to run for his life from a saber or an orange jumpsuit. That's why I'm all for keeping this option to an absolute minimum—I want to take as little risk as possible with this whole thing.

It’s not just about ISIS like everyone thinks—there are tons of different armies and militias over there... which, like I said before, is exactly why they can't rally behind a single cause. Honestly, they'd probably just end up fighting each other instead...

loneseal said:We aren't fixing anything if every sane person just flees to Europe. If there’s actually enough decent, positive people left in those regions, then the issues need to be dealt with in Syria and Iran, not by dumping a massive wave of people into Europe. Those exact values you mentioned? They could be totally undermined by this "solution" some people are pushing for. ISIS won't just vanish because everyone smart leaves; if anything, it'll just make them stronger.

Robin Fox2 hit the nail on the head. Honestly, I hope little Preat doesn't ever have to run for his life from a saber or an orange jumpsuit. That's why I'm all for keeping this option to an absolute minimum—I want to take as little risk as possible with this whole thing.

Looks like Preat won't be around—whether that's good news or bad news... depends on who you ask. 😁

Anthony Jackson2 said:Claiming all Muslims are terrorists is a massive generalization. It takes a special kind of intellect to spout nonsense like that.

So, he's actually pretty far from the truth. Just like how it's wrong to claim those fleeing Syria are merely economic migrants—not unlike Americans heading to Canada. Or the idea that back in the 90s, only women and children were fleeing this place...

If you’re dealing with violent garbage every single day—I mean, actually living in it—you’re gonna have a way different perspective than some guy who hasn't seen any of it... it's just not the same.

People definitely need help, without a doubt. At the same time, we really ought to keep a close eye on who is actually arriving, which are all valid concerns... and the people asking these questions aren't "racists, bigots, or haters," despite what so many people seem to imply.

And if everything south and east of Europe is essentially a disaster zone from which everyone will be fleeing in the coming years, that seems pretty obvious. The West isn't to blame for this situation... so let's please stop with the liberal nonsense about how the West exploits poor nations. The entire world has been under Western influence in one way or another, and by the year 2016, some countries actually look worse than they did back in 1616, while others are doing better than Europe itself.

Robin Fox2 said:People definitely need help, without a doubt. At the same time, we really ought to keep a close eye on who is actually arriving, which are all valid concerns... and the people asking these questions aren't "racists, bigots, or haters," despite what so many people seem to imply.

And if everything south and east of Europe is essentially a disaster zone from which everyone will be fleeing in the coming years, that seems pretty obvious. The West isn't to blame for this situation... so let's please stop with the liberal nonsense about how the West exploits poor nations. The entire world has been under Western influence in one way or another, and by the year 2016, some countries actually look worse than they did back in 1616, while others are doing better than Europe itself.

Of course we need to maintain control over our borders as much as possible! It’s common sense—we can't just let anyone walk in whenever and wherever they please. We have to verify identities and track movement; that's just responsible governance. But using a blanket excuse like, "Oh, he's Muslim, he won't integrate, and he might be a terrorist," as a reason to reject someone fleeing a war zone? Absolutely not. That's simply not how this works.
Taking precautions isn't racism or phobia. But saying "it's normal for them to kill" definitely is!

Robin Fox2 said:People definitely need help, without a doubt. At the same time, we really ought to keep a close eye on who is actually arriving, which are all valid concerns... and the people asking these questions aren't "racists, bigots, or haters," despite what so many people seem to imply.

And if everything south and east of Europe is essentially a disaster zone from which everyone will be fleeing in the coming years, that seems pretty obvious. The West isn't to blame for this situation... so let's please stop with the liberal nonsense about how the West exploits poor nations. The entire world has been under Western influence in one way or another, and by the year 2016, some countries actually look worse than they did back in 1616, while others are doing better than Europe itself.

That’s a whole different ballgame, and honestly, it feels like people are just trying to twist it back into the same old argument!
But seriously, if the Western nations keep casually stirring up wars in developing countries like it's no big deal, we’re eventually going to have to find a much more permanent solution for how to handle the fallout. We can't just ignore the consequences forever!

frozencobra50 said:And that is exactly what I was saying. These aren't war refugees; they're economic migrants. And on top of that, they're undocumented. 🙂

Sure, not everyone's a refugee—some are definitely just looking for work—but I highly doubt that's all you were actually trying to say.

Michelle Palmer6 said:Actually, it matters quite a bit. If you intend to use them as a blueprint for the migrants arriving today, then it's vital.
The point is, they left before things went south. War likely hadn't reached their doorstep yet, and they hadn't lost immediate family members. They packed up, sorted out their jobs and housing in Sweden, and moved to safety. Even if things weren't perfectly stable, they certainly weren't risking their lives to make the trip. We saw the same thing back in the States during the Homeland War—people saw the situation heating up and decided to grab their belongings and head for the USA, Germany, and so on. Both groups had a wartime element influencing their decision to emigrate, but you simply cannot compare them to the folks who were practically swept out of their homes by the war and hit the road with absolutely nothing.

🙏

Of course it matters. The difference is that those people understood the landscape; they knew they had a much better shot at being accepted if they traveled independently, civilly, and legally. These people today? They want to reach Germany at any cost—not seeking freedom or security, but aiming for the most economically developed nation in Europe. And they're doing it illegally, mostly without any paperwork whatsoever.

I’m not saying these current migrants aren't going through hell, and they aren't risking their lives. But this feels like a choice... a "through thorns to reach the stars" kind of thing. Because if their actual goal was just escaping conflict, they wouldn't be risking their lives; they would have ended their journey in Turkey.

loneseal said:Living space has always been divided up; people have always split things into "ours" and "theirs." And let’s be real, they’ve always tried to grab what belongs to someone else. These local good Samaritans act like they’re blind, pretending they don't see the fact that most of America is totally uncomfortable with these newcomers because of who they are, what they bring, and how they look at us. If we were talking about taking in Canadians or Estonians, nobody would be pushing back like this. But when you’re dealing with groups where you have more than enough evidence that they won't assimilate—and could potentially harbor a bunch of unstable terrorists—that’s a whole different story.

Prejudice squared. Most of the world is just made up of regular folks. Completely normal people.

loneseal said:Look, Preat doesn't have any blind spots or biases here. We see exactly what kind of extremism is running the show in those regions every single day. Of course, most people coming from those areas aren't to blame, but let’s be real—there’s a massive amount of fear in our country. When we take them in, we're essentially increasing the risk to our own kids. Don't we have every right to be afraid? And honestly, don't we have good reasons for it, too?

Walter Grant5, nobody’s arguing with what you're saying. But honestly, we moved past where they are a long time ago. To them, taking a life is just business as usual. For us? It’s absolutely sickening.

😲

Matthew Anderson4 said:Sure, not everyone's a refugee—some are definitely just looking for work—but I highly doubt that's all you were actually trying to say.

Anyone who is strictly looking to get into Germany is an economic migrant.

What else did I say... or what was I trying to get at?🍿

So what’s the point of constantly trying to spin why these people are showing up? When you keep insisting they aren't refugees but just economic migrants, it honestly looks like you're trying to strip away their right to be here. It makes it seem like you're implying things aren't actually that bad where they are—even though they are—just so you can claim they're only after more cash and social perks at the expense of American citizens. To me, it sounds like you're just saying they're looking for a handout.

PS. Every Syrian is a refugee.