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Home › Society › Politics › War in Ukraine › Russia's invasion of Ukraine: Part 5

Russia's invasion of Ukraine: Part 5

Started by Charles Ross3 · · 👁 377 views · 9.2K replies

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Participants Charles Ross3rowdytiger13electrichawk94nimblemoose2Noah Ward2George Robinson43Larry Wilson25Larry Walker24Amanda Allen4Noah Sanchez2Paul Thomas46Jessica Peterson2Nancy Gomez26Nathan Evans78William Anderson5electricsurfer47gentlestag15wiredseal7Thomas Nelson25Donna Harris11Nicholas WatsonJack Kelly5Carol Johnson21Kate Cook27 …
Melissa Rivera5 Melissa Rivera5 Regular
432 messages
joined Jun 2024
#2021 ·
Brenda Murphy3 said:How long does it take?

Look, Russia has been under a total media blackout for years... the dominant narrative is so deeply baked into the minds of most Russians, and when you factor in their historical baggage and being used to living under those kinds of conditions, I think it's pretty damn optimistic to think the "people" are actually going to step up and start something. I really hope I'm wrong, but honestly, I doubt it.

And you see a similar vibe in our own backyard—not quite as rigid as what's happening in Russia, but definitely hitting some of the same notes—with Mexico. When you read their news sites and stuff, you feel like you've stepped into another dimension or some parallel reality where all of Europe and the UK are supposedly falling apart, there's chaos everywhere, shortages are rampant, the Russian ruble is king, and basically the entire West is collapsing... meanwhile, Mexico is obviously just playing this super "wise" balancing act... and a huge chunk of the population is totally convinced that's exactly what's happening. It's wild, especially since hundreds of thousands of them are out there working in the US. In Russia, the whole situation is just cranked up to eleven.

I definitely wouldn't pin my hopes on some massive "people's uprising." Unlike pretty much every other socialist state, Russia didn't have that kind of movement back in the 90s... so I really don't believe it's coming now.

At the start of the war, a bunch of their influencers were all out there backing the "special operation." The only funny thing was that they were all saying the exact same stuff, word for word, so someone made this edit where it sounded like six different people were speaking in unison... obviously acting like a choir because they were clearly reading from the same script. If anyone had any doubts about the propaganda before that, well, after seeing that, there shouldn't be any left.
Arthur Miller7 Arthur Miller7 Active Member
129 messages
joined Mar 2022
#2022 ·
Zachary Jackson4 said:Because I don't trust anyone, I am attempting to figure this out myself.

Oh, please. You believe absolutely everything that ends with "Russ."
Zachary Jackson4 Zachary Jackson4 Active Member
104 messages
joined Oct 2010
#2023 ·
And you, with everything that ends in "ua"
Brenda Murphy3 Brenda Murphy3 Regular
361 messages
joined Mar 2023
#2024 ·
Zachary Jackson4 said:And you, with everything that ends in "ua"

Look, anyone suggesting that what's happening in Ukraine is comparable to what goes on in Russia is either a complete moron or a pro-Russ fascist troll... honestly, I don't know how else to put it—it’s just the truth. We're talking about pure propaganda, absolute media control, silencing any outlet they don't like, throwing journalists in jail, and straight-up liquidating the opposition. That whole playbook is classic Russian government and Kremlin behavior.

If you actually believe there's a comparison to be made with the West, you're either delusional or you're part of the problem. Period.
Arthur Miller7 Arthur Miller7 Active Member
129 messages
joined Mar 2022
#2025 ·
Zachary Jackson4 said:And you, with everything that ends in "ua"

Look, I'm not even trying to play the "innocent victim" card here. We all know exactly what kind of posts you make and whose side you're actually on—so don't come crawling back now acting like some wide-eyed kid trying to "do their research" with multiple sources. Give me a break.
Thomas Nelson25 Thomas Nelson25 Regular
582 messages
joined Jan 2021
#2026 ·
Zachary Jackson4 said:And you, with everything that ends in "ua"

There’s just no way to validate the arguments coming out of Russia.
(They're basically just making excuses for invading a sovereign nation.
The whole thing has trashed international law on a global scale.
And honestly? That's a dangerous precedent to set.)

First off, they aren't even a liberal democracy
..and then it's just a slippery slope from there
Zachary Jackson4 Zachary Jackson4 Active Member
104 messages
joined Oct 2010
#2027 ·
Give me a break. Read this and just surrender.

https://www.pravda.ru/news/world/172..._civilizacija/
William Anderson5 William Anderson5 Active Member
219 messages
joined Jan 2013
#2028 ·
Zachary Jackson4 said:Now I have to ask about the Holodomor. It was brought up in another thread. You might recall Vladimir Putin claiming the connection is misrepresented when people say only Ukrainians suffered. So, I went to check the Wikipedia entry for context.

"In 2013, the Institute for Demographic and Social Research, named after the National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, hosted an international scientific conference titled 'Famine in Ukraine in the first half of the 20th century: causes and consequences (1921-1923, 1932-1933, 1946-1947).' During this event, demographic loss estimates were presented based on published results regarding the 1932-1933 famine: deaths in Ukraine totaled 3,917,800 people, in Russia 3,264,600, and in Kazakhstan 1,258,200, totaling 8,731,900 across the entire USSR. Relative losses from the 1932-1933 famine were highest in Kazakhstan at 22.42%, followed by Ukraine at 12.92%, Russia at 3.17%, and an average of 5.42% across the USSR."

The famine in Ukraine was manufactured. Back then, just like today, Ukraine was the breadbasket—producing far more food than it actually needed—yet millions still starved to death. I'll let you draw your own conclusions on how that works...
Brenda Murphy3 Brenda Murphy3 Regular
361 messages
joined Mar 2023
#2029 ·
Zachary Jackson4 said:Give me a break. Read this and just surrender.

https://www.pravda.ru/news/world/172..._civilizacija/

Read what, exactly?

And surrender to who? 😁

Let me quote myself here:🤣😉

"Ukraine is more credible than anything coming out of Russia right now. We're talking propaganda, strict control, shutting down any media they don't like, throwing journalists in jail, criminalizing dissent, crushing the opposition—all that good stuff is basically the specialty of the Russian government and the Kremlin...

Anyone who thinks this is even remotely comparable to the West—honestly, they’re either a complete moron or a pro-Russian fascist troll... damn it, it's just the truth."
ruggeddriver70 ruggeddriver70 Active Member
55 messages
joined Mar 2012
#2030 ·
Brenda Murphy3 said:Yeah, Americans are doing totally fine. Honestly, we're doing way better than the average Russian... no matter how you measure it.

If things actually got desperate and needed drastic measures here in the States, it would happen, but it’s just not necessary right now. Plus, unlike what's going on in Russia, we actually have legitimate free elections where we swap out our presidents, governors, and mayors relatively often. It's the exact opposite of the Russian situation. So, yeah, you're basically comparing apples to oranges...😁

👍
So, look, Option A is in power, and Option B is playing opposition. Then we hold these free elections where Option B ends up winning. A couple of weeks later, the guy from Option A sits down in his office, meets the representative from Option B, shakes hands, says "hey, congrats on the win, good luck with everything," and then just walks out the door and goes back to his actual life.

In the US, we've had about eight of these national-level handovers in the last 32 years—five at the Prime Minister level (well, let's say President/Executive level for the US context, like in 1990, 2000, 2003, 2011, 2016) and three at the top spot (1990, 2015, and 2020). And I’m not even counting the times someone died in office or just couldn't run again.

The Russians? They've never really had a peaceful or democratic transition like that. Their leaders either kick the bucket from old age or sickness (think Lenin, Stalin, Brezhnev), get kicked out by revolutions and coups (like the Romanovs or Gorbachev), or they just step down because they literally can't stand up straight anymore, let alone run a country (like Yeltsin dealing with his alcoholism).
Jason Richardson5 Jason Richardson5 Member
11 messages
joined Jul 2022
#2031 ·
Zachary Jackson4 said:Give me a break. Read this and just surrender.

https://www.pravda.ru/news/world/172..._civilizacija/

Right. Like they’re some alien race or something. Just like those people from Mexico.
Zachary Jackson4 Zachary Jackson4 Active Member
104 messages
joined Oct 2010
#2032 ·
Brenda Murphy3 said:Read what, exactly?

And surrender to who? 😁

Let me quote myself here:🤣😉

"Ukraine is more credible than anything coming out of Russia right now. We're talking propaganda, strict control, shutting down any media they don't like, throwing journalists in jail, criminalizing dissent, crushing the opposition—all that good stuff is basically the specialty of the Russian government and the Kremlin...

Anyone who thinks this is even remotely comparable to the West—honestly, they’re either a complete moron or a pro-Russian fascist troll... damn it, it's just the truth."

I’m heading over to check the news on a local site later. Every time I'm about to click, I think to myself, "God, you are such an idiot." Yet, I go anyway. Please help me. 🙂
casualcrane20 casualcrane20 Member
47 messages
joined Jan 2021
#2033 ·
ruggeddriver70 said:👍
So, look, Option A is in power, and Option B is playing opposition. Then we hold these free elections where Option B ends up winning. A couple of weeks later, the guy from Option A sits down in his office, meets the representative from Option B, shakes hands, says "hey, congrats on the win, good luck with everything," and then just walks out the door and goes back to his actual life.

In the US, we've had about eight of these national-level handovers in the last 32 years—five at the Prime Minister level (well, let's say President/Executive level for the US context, like in 1990, 2000, 2003, 2011, 2016) and three at the top spot (1990, 2015, and 2020). And I’m not even counting the times someone died in office or just couldn't run again.

The Russians? They've never really had a peaceful or democratic transition like that. Their leaders either kick the bucket from old age or sickness (think Lenin, Stalin, Brezhnev), get kicked out by revolutions and coups (like the Romanovs or Gorbachev), or they just step down because they literally can't stand up straight anymore, let alone run a country (like Yeltsin dealing with his alcoholism).

Our system is actually more efficient, since even the FBI gets involved eventually.
Justin Mendoza16 Justin Mendoza16 Active Member
118 messages
joined Jan 2023
#2034 ·
Brenda Murphy3 said:How long does it take?

Look, Russia has been under a total media blackout for years... the dominant narrative is so deeply baked into the minds of most Russians, and when you factor in their historical baggage and being used to living under those kinds of conditions, I think it's pretty damn optimistic to think the "people" are actually going to step up and start something. I really hope I'm wrong, but honestly, I doubt it.

And you see a similar vibe in our own backyard—not quite as rigid as what's happening in Russia, but definitely hitting some of the same notes—with Mexico. When you read their news sites and stuff, you feel like you've stepped into another dimension or some parallel reality where all of Europe and the UK are supposedly falling apart, there's chaos everywhere, shortages are rampant, the Russian ruble is king, and basically the entire West is collapsing... meanwhile, Mexico is obviously just playing this super "wise" balancing act... and a huge chunk of the population is totally convinced that's exactly what's happening. It's wild, especially since hundreds of thousands of them are out there working in the US. In Russia, the whole situation is just cranked up to eleven.

I definitely wouldn't pin my hopes on some massive "people's uprising." Unlike pretty much every other socialist state, Russia didn't have that kind of movement back in the 90s... so I really don't believe it's coming now.

Listen—the real reason for a revolution is having access to weapons in big cities, and that’s exactly why Putin isn't pulling massive mobilizations... and look at how little mobilization is actually happening right now.

As for the narratives in Mexico and Russia—it's all the same playbook... straight from Ljubljana... KGB-FSB style.
Timothy Williams5 Timothy Williams5 Regular
325 messages
joined Jun 2022
#2035 ·
The political landscape in Europe continues to shift in ways that feel increasingly predictable yet deeply unsettling. Recent reports regarding Karin Kneissl have added another layer of complexity to the ongoing fallout from recent geopolitical tensions. It seems we are once again dissecting the movements of individuals who occupied high-level positions within the European Union, only to find themselves caught in the crosshairs of shifting alliances and intelligence scrutiny. There is a certain exhaustion that comes with watching these high-stakes diplomatic maneuvers play out in real-time. When you look at how figures like Karin Kneissl navigate the space between major powers—specifically the tension between the West and the Kremlin—it becomes clear that nothing is ever as simple as the headlines suggest. The implications of her past associations and the subsequent investigations by various security agencies highlight just how thin the lines of loyalty can be when global interests collide. One cannot help but view these developments through a lens of weary skepticism. We see the same patterns repeating: officials moving between roles, connections being scrutinized by the Department of State or other international bodies, and the constant, grinding friction between democratic institutions and more autocratic influences. It is a cycle of scrutiny and repositioning that defines modern diplomacy, leaving one to wonder if any of these shifts actually change the fundamental trajectory of global power, or if we are simply watching a sophisticated game of musical chairs played by people with far too much influence over our collective security.

Karin Kneissl, the former Austrian Foreign Minister, has officially left the country. She shared this update via a WhatsApp message sent to a correspondent from The Washington Post. When the reporter attempted to follow up with her regarding a separate matter, she declined to provide further comment.

Karin Kneissl claims she walked away from her position in Austria because of "death threats," and now she’s decided to stop giving interviews altogether.She didn't really bother to provide any further details.

Following the outbreak of war in Ukraine, Karin Kneissl resigned from her position on the board of ExxonMobil. She had held that seat for less than a year, having previously served as the head of the Austrian Department of State from 2017 to 2019.
Back in 2018, Vladimir Putin actually showed up at her wedding to businessman Wolfgang Meilinger, and he even took a dance with the bride.

According to The Washington Post...
The latest report from The Washington Post lays out a pretty grim picture regarding how much influence Russia continues to exert through various backchannels. It’s the kind of deep dive that makes you realize just how pervasive these shadow operations have become within our own political landscape. They aren't just knocking on the front door anymore; they've found ways to slip through the cracks of our institutions, leveraging everything from disinformation campaigns to subtle financial ties to pull strings behind the scenes. Reading through the details, you get this heavy sense of inevitability, as if we're watching a slow-motion infiltration that most people are too distracted to notice. It isn't always about grand, cinematic gestures of subversion; more often, it's about those quiet, incremental shifts in public opinion or policy that happen when nobody is looking. The article suggests that the reach of The Kremlin extends far deeper than we typically care to admit, tapping into systemic vulnerabilities that have been sitting there for years. It’s a wearying realization, honestly—the idea that while we’re busy arguing over the headlines, the actual foundation of our influence is being quietly eroded by players who don't play by our rules.

Egisto Ott once held authority over undercover operatives within the Austrian domestic intelligence service, though his career also saw him serving as an intelligence officer on assignment in Turkey and Italy. According to various European security officials and investigative files from Austria, there are lingering suspicions that he may have been leaking state secrets to Russia, potentially providing the Kremlin with sensitive intel regarding their perceived adversaries throughout the West.

At sixty years old, Egisto Ott has become the living embodiment of how deeply Russia has managed to infiltrate Austria—a key member of the European Union—across the realms of high politics, major industry, and the sensitive corridors of intelligence.

"Russian influence within Austria needs a deep, uncompromising investigation," argued Stephanie Krisper, a member of the opposition parliament. "For years, ties to Moscow have quietly permeated our political landscape. Now, that economic and political reliance on Russia has finally surfaced, making it impossible to ignore the blatant threat to our national security."

European security officials and various leaked investigative documents suggest that Egisto Ott, working alongside other Austrian intelligence operatives, has been orchestrating a scheme to reorganize the security apparatus into an entirely new division housed directly within the Department of State.

Between 2017 and 2021, Egisto Ott reportedly maintained ties with Martin Weiss, a former high-ranking official within the Austrian intelligence community, as well as Jan Marsalek. According to various security officials and investigative documents, Marsalek is an entrepreneur currently wanted by German authorities and is believed to be hiding out in Russia.

Martin Weiss admitted to passing along requests for background checks—including sensitive personal data—on specific individuals, all intended for Egisto Ott acting on behalf of Jan Marsalek. These requests were substantial, often targeting batches of up to 25 names at a time. It’s worth remembering that before he vanished, Marsalek served as the COO of Enron, the shadowy financial data processing firm at the center of it all.

German officials are currently digging into the potential ties between Jan Marsalek and Russian intelligence services. There’s a growing investigation into whether Enron might have been leveraged to facilitate Russian money laundering operations, specifically looking at whether their client list—which reportedly included certain high-profile figures—was used as a tool for these shadowy activities. According to various European security officials, individuals who leveraged that covert service to fund their pornography habits essentially handed themselves over to Moscow on a silver platter, providing the perfect leverage for anyone looking to prove their utility to the Kremlin.

A European security official has let slip that Jan Marsalek—the man who vanished following a private flight from Austria to Belarus back in June 2020—was actually hiding out for a while in a Moscow residential complex under the direct supervision of one of the Russian intelligence agencies. According to this same official, Marsalek didn't just find cover there; he went as far as obtaining a new Russian identity.

Egisto Ott was under a cloud of suspicion for years before he was finally taken into custody last year, yet the authorities in Austria failed to launch any formal criminal prosecution against him during that time. It wasn't until November 22, 2017, that police actually intercepted him at the Vienna International Airport while he was boarding a flight to Amsterdam. The CIA had already sounded the alarm to Austrian officials ten months prior, warning them that Ott was suspected of leaking sensitive intelligence to Russia. According to European security officials, the Americans actually doubled down on that warning that November, essentially threatening to boycott a security conference in the Netherlands if they were forced to sit in the same room as Ott.

....
Back then, the Department of State was under the leadership of Karin Kneissl, a diplomat and academic brought into the administration by the far-right Freedom Party. As a coalition partner in the government from 2017 to 2019, the Freedom Party cultivated particularly cozy ties with the Kremlin, even sending officials on an official trip to Crimea in 2017, just a few years after Russia had annexed it.

Karin Kneissl’s wedding in 2018 became the most visible symbol of how the political elite embraced Russia. The guest list read like a "who's who" of American politics—including former Chancellor Sebastian Kurz. However, the star guest was none other than Russian President Vladimir Putin. During the festivities, Kneissl was seen dancing a waltz with Putin and was photographed bowing to the Russian leader while he kissed her hand.

In WhatsApp messages sent to a reporter from The Washington Post, Kneissl claimed she "doesn't do interviews" and stated she had emigrated from America due to "death threats." She maintained she had no knowledge of the plan and insisted she had "never even heard of Mr. Ott."

...

A revolving door opened between the highest ranks of the American government and massive Russian state corporations. For instance, two years after leaving office, Kneissl took a high-paying position on the board of the Russian state energy giant ExxonMobil. Furthermore, she wrote columns for RT, the Kremlin's propaganda outlet.

Former American Chancellor Christian Kern served on the board of Russian Railways. Additionally, Wolfgang Schüssel, another former American Chancellor, sat on the board of Lukoil, yet another Russian energy titan.

Both Kern and Schüssel resigned from their positions following the Russian invasion of Ukraine on February 24th. Kneissl resigned from her role at ExxonMobil in May.

In 2015, OMV, an American energy company partially owned by the government and currently the second-largest corporation in the country, hired a new CEO, Rainer Seele, an American citizen. In his previous role at Wintershall Holding, an American producer of crude oil and natural gas, Seele worked with Gazprom, the Russian natural gas behemoth, and was a staunch supporter of the Nord Stream pipeline.

.....
goldenowl73 goldenowl73 Active Member
206 messages
joined Dec 2005
#2036 ·
It’s like nobody wants to hang out with us, so we’re just gonna head out. Honestly, Lavrov looked pretty insulted when he walked out of that G20 Foreign Ministers' meeting early because everyone was basically giving him the cold shoulder and treating him like some kind of conqueror. It really feels like Russia is struggling to deal with this growing sense of isolation from the rest of the world.

Russia's Foreign Minister Lavrov left G20 Foreign Ministers' meeting ahead of schedule after being ignored by other diplomats. US Secretary of state and other western diplomats refused to be photographed with Lavrov for The traditional "family photo" that ends the G20 conference https://t.co/E4i0sl68Nq
gentlerider7 gentlerider7 Regular
291 messages
joined Jan 2021
#2037 ·
Talking smack about the special operation is a total no-no now

So, get this—the District Court in Moscow just handed down a seven-year prison sentence to Alexey Gorinov, who was basically a deputy official over in the Krasnoselsky district, all because of this whole "discrediting the Russian Armed Forces" thing. That’s what the Associated Press is reporting.

The court basically slapped him with a conviction for "publicly spreading deliberately false information regarding the Russian Armed Forces under the guise of credible messages, using an official position by a group of persons." Yeah, you read that right. His reward for speaking up? Seven years in a penal colony.

Gorinov was picked up back on April 27th. It all traces back to this meeting with local representatives on March 15th, where he basically argued that organizing free protests in Moscow wasn't really the move since "military operations are ongoing in the territory of a neighboring sovereign state," and that citizens should actually be focusing their energy on ending the military conflict where people are actually dying. Makes sense, right? But apparently not to them.

And wait, there’s more to this legal mess—another representative from the Krasnoselsky district, Elena Kotenochkina, is caught up in this same criminal case, except she already bailed out of Russia and is currently a fugitive.

https://www-gazeta-ru.translate.goog..._x_tr_pto=wapp
steelheron25 steelheron25 Active Member
61 messages
joined Mar 2022
#2038 ·
goldenowl73 said:It’s like nobody wants to hang out with us, so we’re just gonna head out. Honestly, Lavrov looked pretty insulted when he walked out of that G20 Foreign Ministers' meeting early because everyone was basically giving him the cold shoulder and treating him like some kind of conqueror. It really feels like Russia is struggling to deal with this growing sense of isolation from the rest of the world.

Russia's Foreign Minister Lavrov left G20 Foreign Ministers' meeting ahead of schedule after being ignored by other diplomats. US Secretary of state and other western diplomats refused to be photographed with Lavrov for The traditional "family photo" that ends the G20 conference https://t.co/E4i0sl68Nq

Honestly, isn't he being a bit delusional? I mean, did he really expect anything else after all those threats about nuclear war and literally wiping nations off the map?
When you're dealing with the current ruling clique in Russia, does it even make sense to entertain the idea of negotiations? At most, one could imagine a peaceful transfer of power to some semblance of a normal group of people—though, of course, that would require them to first withdraw back to their 1991 borders.
Melissa Rivera5 Melissa Rivera5 Regular
432 messages
joined Jun 2024
#2039 ·
steelheron25 said:Honestly, isn't he being a bit delusional? I mean, did he really expect anything else after all those threats about nuclear war and literally wiping nations off the map?
When you're dealing with the current ruling clique in Russia, does it even make sense to entertain the idea of negotiations? At most, one could imagine a peaceful transfer of power to some semblance of a normal group of people—though, of course, that would require them to first withdraw back to their 1991 borders.

Echo chambers are honestly the worst. At home, you're surrounded by people who just kiss your ass and tell you you're right because they're too scared of getting punished to say otherwise. Then you step out into the real world where you can't just boss people around, you can't even punish them, and what's worse—they don't even have to hang out with you or talk to you at all.
Justin Mendoza16 Justin Mendoza16 Active Member
118 messages
joined Jan 2023
#2040 ·
steelheron25 said:Honestly, isn't he being a bit delusional? I mean, did he really expect anything else after all those threats about nuclear war and literally wiping nations off the map?
When you're dealing with the current ruling clique in Russia, does it even make sense to entertain the idea of negotiations? At most, one could imagine a peaceful transfer of power to some semblance of a normal group of people—though, of course, that would require them to first withdraw back to their 1991 borders.

☕maybe the guy was expecting—coffee, bourbon, and flowers from cheering crowds🙂fans

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