Posts by Jason Ortiz5

Chloe Roberts2 said:I honestly don't get how they can claim there isn't enough room when the church is hosting religious education classes right in their own facilities, especially considering that's exactly where the kids need to be for their First Communion and Confirmation prep sessions.

Honestly, you just squeeze everyone in for a week. It’s not that deep!

And besides, finding teachers is a nightmare—everyone is already booked solid at the local K-12 schools.

Henry Cox78 said:Demand for religious education is huge, but there just isn't enough room, so it makes more sense to go where the space actually exists. You seem really worked up about this whole religion thing. It’s not enough for you guys to just opt out yourselves; you think everyone else should quit too. That's just not gonna happen.

Look, we aren't forcing anyone to step down or anything. We're just saying people should go where they actually fit in.

brisknomad13 said:Catholic religious education is back in American public schools after decades away, and it happened through perfectly legal, democratic channels. It wasn't forced on anyone.

Regarding the funding, sure, they could make things more transparent, but look at it this way:
As a believer, I’m happy to donate to the Church, while some atheist might rather give their money to "Provo" or whatever group fits their vibe.

My cash definitely isn't going to Provo... or any of those feminist nonprofits...😁

Legal? Sure. But unfortunately, our laws can be pretty flexible sometimes. Democratic? I’m not so sure about that.

Look, my money goes to the church, but not by choice. If I decide to chip in to any other charity or club, that's my call and my money. The Church gets its funds through mandate. Very democratic, right? 😛

I feel like someone already tore apart that whole "majority vs. minority" argument. Just to be clear, I wasn't saying religious studies is inherently crude—it’s more about how they force it into public schools, which are funded by everyone and attended by everyone.
Besides, the church has made it pretty obvious before: no matter how much they clash with non-believers, they sure do love the smell of taxpayer money.

The only thing that feels totally out of line and inappropriate is having religious studies baked right into the public school curriculum.

What if we made religion class mandatory for every single kid in school? Honestly, think about it. We’d stop all that aimless wandering through the hallways, and parents wouldn't have to deal with the headache of kids just drifting around without any direction. Plus, imagine how nice it would be if everyone could just sit down together and say grace before lunch. It wouldn't just be a few people praying; it would be everyone. Kids would grow up with the same foundation, learning where we actually came from. They'd pick up on things like good manners, being respectful, and those core values that really hold a community together. It’s about teaching them how to be decent people through real communication.
Wouldn't that be a total game-changer? 🎉

Lawrence Torres56 said:😁Don't you worry, I understood your post just fine; if anything, maybe you didn't quite digest everything I said in my response😉

Our preferences are what they are, right? And honestly, in my book, there isn't much of a difference between learning a little song about a lucky clover and reciting any kind of prayer... they're all just pieces of cultural heritage that might actually end up being useful to you one day in your life.

And since the government is the one that brought prayer and blessings into these public institutions in the first place, it's pretty obvious they belong there, whether we personally agree with it or not... I mean, you can't just live in someone else's apartment and decide to grab a book off their shelf and toss it in the basement or out on the curb just because it doesn't sit right with you, can you? Because at that point, you aren't exactly practicing "respect for diversity" anymore, no matter how much you talk about it.😉

How exactly is prayer "universally useful"? Or is it really any more helpful than a voodoo ritual, bowing toward Mecca, Buddhist meditation, or some Wiccan ceremony thanking Mother Nature? And what makes it hold more cultural value than a song about Santa Claus or a classic Coca-Cola Christmas commercial?
And look, we aren't sharing an apartment here. We share the same federal institutions. There’s a massive distinction there. The government should treat everyone equally and show respect to all. In your own home—which seems to be the argument being made over and over here—you can do whatever you want.

Lawrence Torres56 said:I feel the same way😉...honestly, I'd love for my kid to have two hours less of that stuff per week in exchange for a much broader understanding of global faiths—like, instead of a poem about a dandelion, maybe they learn a prayer or a mantra... or instead of being encouraged toward hate in the 21st century, they listen to lessons about how similar we all are as humans...

But we don't really have that, do we? We just love pretending we do... because if we actually did, discussions like this would be ridiculous, especially since we all know nobody is getting hurt or dying just because someone splashed them with holy water or because a priest walked past them on the street.😁
So, what is religion class actually for? Well, maybe it exists, among other things, to teach kids what we call "interpersonal communication skills," which includes "respecting the teacher and peers. It involves practicing courtesy, attention, grace, and sincerity in human relationships." In other words, it's the stuff we've stripped out of every other subject because apparently, it's perfectly fine for an older person to call a student a "cow" just because they're in religion class and don't believe in God, or because it's considered "fine" to lie, be dishonest, or encourage hate, or to judge a classmate just because he's wearing his brother's old sneakers... you name it. Is that enough, or do I need to keep listing examples?🍿

Is someone actually stopping your kid from learning prayers? I wouldn't say that... They don't really teach the similarities between people in these classes. They focus on the differences. And "respect" is only taught if you think that's just a fancy word for blind obedience. As for treating classmates well, we saw that handled through the example of hell waiting for non-believers. (Though, from what I hear, my little one dodged a bullet considering how they act with each other lately.) What about Finoc? Try defining Finoc without throwing honesty out the window. Because those two just don't mix.

And no, she isn't a cow just because she teaches religion. She's a bad person. But you're right, and thanks for pointing out that I was being pretty rude there. Consider this my official apology to all the cows out there.

Jacob Lewis5 said:Alright, so believers might be bullies who act selfishly and don't care about anyone else, but they aren't out here eating toddlers... let's not get totally carried away with the insults toward religious people.

If you go down that road, you’d basically have to spit on the entire human race since people are capable of all kinds of terrible stuff.

Anyway... honestly? What you wrote actually hits the nail on the head for a huge chunk of religious people, whether you like hearing it or not. It’s true—they want to force their faith, their specific beliefs, their way of living, and all those ceremonies onto everyone else. They don't really give a damn about others. They don't care if they offend someone, and they have zero respect for other people's rights to raise their kids according to their own values. It doesn't even matter to them if they actually live out those "Christian" values in real life; they still beat their chests and claim those values belong solely to them. Call it whatever you want, but in any language, that's just straight-up bullying.

Jacob Lewis5 said:All of the above!

I heard some people say religious folks sneak around in the dark to eat toddlers, too. (Seriously though, if you wrote that many negative stereotypes about any other group besides Christians, you’d be getting flagged for hate speech immediately.)
I gotta ask a personal question: You say religious people at work drive you crazy, yet you claim you get along fine when you're alone with them. Then you mention your daughter getting picked on by the "good kids" at school, and you're constantly posting about them... honestly, where do you live? Some tiny town in Boise? Or maybe Spokane? Something clearly triggered some deep-seated resentment in you. If even 10% of what you're saying is true, then please, accept my apologies on behalf of all believers.

That bit about eating children is just pathetic.

I live in the Midwest. It's not that religious people get on my nerves at work; I was just saying that in the most religious circles, I've seen the absolute worst behavior—bullying, theft, hypocrisy, cheating on spouses, gossip... Honestly, luckily, most of them just do that stuff to each other.

Jacob Lewis5 said:Seriously though: What’s the actual payoff if we finally pull religious studies out of the public schools? everyone wins, right? ...yeah, that's a pretty lazy answer.

Is there even an answer that would actually satisfy religious folks? It feels like you guys just see things through your own lens—putting yourselves first, acting like you're the only ones with a say, or that you're always right... it just keeps going like that.

Lawrence Torres56 said:Of course you don't get it, just like a few others here, because you're all looking at everything through a lens of prejudice and seeing only what you want to see, rather than actually reading what's on the page...

And you know, it’s actually pretty tragic that none of you attacking them noticed the distinction. You missed the whole point: it was just about the selflessness of the kid in the second letter, where instead of asking for anything for himself from Nicholas, he’s already asking for a job for his parents and health for his aunt... 😢
And that specific kind of selflessness is exactly what gets rewarded in religious studies, not in American history or any other subject taught in school...

And don't worry, we all set aside money for the church, but we also know that money isn't some "gift" we're tossing to the clergy; it’s more like a debt we're repaying for using all that property that the former government forcibly seized from the church and used for its own ends... if the church had acted the way most people here would act toward the church if it were owed money, the US would have gone bankrupt ages ago... so please, just stop writing about things you don't actually understand just because you read it in a newspaper once.☕

Besides, even if you don't have the cash for a priest at a funeral, that priest is still going to show up without a dime, just like he'll bless your house, baptize your baby, or marry you.....
And really, what kind of car fleet do priests have compared to what politicians are driving?
You know, back in the day, like 200 years ago in America, if a family wanted to support the church to ensure a priest, they’d give the best and most fertile pieces of land as "food"... people left whatever they had to the church after they passed... if you don't believe me, go read that book by Father Slavko Kovacic about the American priests from the rural South.

Isn't it a little cheap to just throw around all these heart-wrenching emotional triggers, when it’s actually way cheaper to just spit on something we don't even understand—something that doesn't have anything to do with the facts and everything to do with our own shady little insinuations?

And look, if you're trying to go around encouraging kids to be selfless, shouldn't you actually be a selfless person yourself? Obviously, faith doesn't really change that reality... it just makes me wonder, after reading all this, how many of these people are actually genuine altruists versus just putting on a massive show for the cameras?
Because honestly, taking one single letter where you can clearly see a difference in values among our kids from an airplane window and turning it into this massive drama? Writing this kind of nonsense? It’s just... sorry, it’s sad, and if you ask me, it’s pretty pathetic...

1. The church got most of its property through legalized looting and heavy taxation.
2. When my grandma passed away—she was a poor soul from rural Midwest—they actually had to threaten the priest. They told him they'd tell everyone he drove his mistress to an abortion because he wouldn't bury her. It wasn't because the funeral wouldn't be paid for, but because one of her children had joined the old Communist party.

neontinker5 said:Are you aware that students who struggle with certain subjects often attend supplemental tutoring for exactly one hour a week just to keep up? (And in most cases, that extra help works wonders for their grades). I personally dislike the very notion of taxpayer money being funneled toward religious instructors, but if we were to draft a proposal, it might look like this: parents could choose between sending their child to religion class for two hours a week or opting for one hour of English and one hour of Math. I can guarantee that the number of students enrolled in religion classes would plummet within two years, once those students begin falling behind the other group in terms of knowledge and grades. Even devout parents would eventually rationalize the choice by prioritizing their children's practical success over religious instruction.

Observing how religion classes morally elevate students compared to those who do not attend, I conclude that those students wouldn't lose much in that department. That is merely my impression.

Don't underestimate how stubborn people can be. We used to have computer lab, but then they introduced choir. People were actually pulling kids out of tech classes just so they could join the choir. That tells you everything you need to know about how much people here actually value practical knowledge.

The only way you could even compare job competition here is if someone was actually getting passed over because of their religious beliefs. And that just isn't happening. Everything else is just cheap political theater.

So, let me get this straight... now teaching religion in schools is being framed as a public safety issue for kids on the road? :hvatasezaglavu: Good grief, what more are we supposed to sit back and ignore? (Honestly, this whole list of "reasons" is such a joke, it’s almost not even worth a response...)

Jacob Lewis5 said:I honestly don't get it. I don't see any "dominance," any special privileges, or anyone getting a leg up at someone else's expense. What's this talk about different rights or better treatment? If the rules are actually the same for everyone and nobody is being forced into anything, then there’s no issue here. Period.

Look, believers aren't losing a thing by keeping religious education in schools. I’m a regular at my local church myself, and honestly, what's the harm?
So, here’s my take on this one: Who would actually lose out if religious education stays in public schools? Honestly, I think the biggest loser would be the students themselves. It’s not even about whether you believe in God or not—it’s about the conversation. If we strip that out, we’re basically cutting out a massive chunk of history, art, and culture that shaped how people think and act. You can't really understand Western civilization without understanding the stuff that drove it. I remember back in high school, even though my family wasn't exactly "church-going," those classes gave us a window into why certain traditions exist and how they influence everything from politics to literature. Without it, school starts feeling a bit more like a sterile factory and less like a place where you actually learn how the world works. It’s a loss for critical thinking, too. Being able to engage with different belief systems—even just academically—helps kids develop some perspective. Take it away, and you're just narrowing the scope of what they're allowed to ponder. To me, that feels like a step backward for a well-rounded education.

The rules aren't equal for everyone, though. They'd only be "equal" if little kids from religious families spent two hours a week wandering the hallways while kids from non-religious families sat through an hour of lessons on why God isn't real or why faith is pointless—all wrapped up in this condescending tone that makes believers feel second-class. But atheists don't want that. Atheists just want schools to stay places where we teach scientifically proven facts. Personal beliefs? Those belong in their own space.

Keeping religious ed in our public schools actually hurts human rights—specifically children's rights and basic values. Who loses? Everyone who is tolerant, reasonable, and civilized. People who believe in respecting others rather than forcing their views on everyone else. You said it yourself: believers lose nothing by keeping their religious studies in the church. So, if that's the case, what's the point of having it in schools other than just imposing it on people?

Jacob Lewis5 said:I think we've finally hit the core issue here—what we actually mean when we say "equality."
Are you seriously suggesting we achieve equality by just erasing or hiding away... every single difference?

Look, working out or praying isn't "hidden" just because it happens at a fitness center or a church. But the real question is: why limit those things strictly to those specific places? I don't get it. Who is religion or exercise actually bothering in a public space if it’s done respectfully and in moderation, especially if nobody's getting offended?

That sentence is highly indicative.

decorating trees and dyeing eggs isn't exactly a Christian tradition.
but I guess the Catholics in the room know all about that. 🥳

Fun fact: atheists actually picked up those customs from the ancient Germans and their deep cultural roots in Western civilization.
😁

Equality doesn't mean everyone has to be identical. It means everyone gets the same treatment and the same rights, without one group being elevated over another (and let's not go down the rabbit hole of debating minority rule over the majority again).

I would love to get one single, meaningful, logical, and well-reasoned answer: what exactly do religious parents lose in their children's upbringing if religious education moved back into the churches? And please, don't just say "convenience." ☕

Alexander Ortiz3 said:So, what you're saying is public schools shouldn't observe federal holidays at all? Should they just go out and invent their own arbitrary days off instead? I don't see any issue with having a blessing for students and faculty during a school assembly held for a religious holiday, provided that attendance isn't mandatory for anyone involved.

Well, at least give us a heads-up about that whole mumbo-jumbo affair so the people who actually want a blessing can participate. Whether it’s a prayer or some voodoo ritual, it’s all the same to me, and I definitely don't want that for my kid.

Respect goes both ways. Michelle Nelson4 already laid it all out for you, so there's no need for me to repeat myself. And just because something happens in public doesn't mean it's happening everywhere. That's just common sense.

Jacob Lewis5 said:The government (the community) exists to serve its people, not the other way around. There's no such thing as a "state culture" that requires anyone to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the nation. We should be free to organize our society however we see fit. I don't see any reason why anyone should have to hide who they are from their community. If there's actually a huge interest in Catholic/Islamic/Orthodox religious studies, then I don't get why that wouldn't just be handled through an elective class for an hour a week.

Yeah, I really am.

Two hours. That's what we're talking about. An "elective" course that gets special treatment compared to everything else on the schedule.

The government is meant to be a community for EVERY resident, and its whole job is to guarantee equality for ALL citizens. That's literally what the Constitution says. Also, having a personality doesn't mean you're being "hidden" just because you aren't shoving it in everyone's faces or being loud about it. Why would faith be considered hidden if people practice it in churches or mosques? It's like saying someone is hiding their love for fitness just because they go to a gym instead of working out at City Hall.

Jacob Lewis5 said:Our school system is already struggling with basic character building—there’s zero focus on spiritual values or teaching kids how to actually respect diversity. Honestly, I think if we just gave in to the demands to scrap religious education entirely, we'd be making a huge mistake. Most people pushing for that are just motivated by nothing but old-school prejudices against the Church anyway.

Look, faith is a deeply PERSONAL thing. It belongs to the individual. I don't see why personal beliefs need to be shoved into public schools, especially when there are perfectly good churches right down the street built specifically for that purpose.

At the end of the day, it’s really about funding, treating all kids equally, and just being decent humans. Isn't the "Golden Rule"—you know, don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to you—one of the most fundamental ethical principles we have?

Jacob Lewis5 said:Christianity is all about being tolerant toward people who are different. Being intolerant is actually anti-Christian. Most of the intolerance you see associated with Christianity comes from people who don't even step foot in a church. We can pull religious ed from schools or slash government funding to the Church for all I care... I’m not worried about Christianity itself, but it bugs me when people push their own prejudices against Christians as a reason to strip the Church of its role in society. I actually appreciate having a strong religious institution in our community, unlike some of you folks who let people fill your heads with this nonsense. You guys are seriously stressing me out.

I live in a super religious area. My boss at work is constantly scattering crucifixes and holy pictures everywhere; she and the other managers won't stop talking about God, the church, and holiness... I sit right next to two women in my office who are incredibly intense about their faith. And yet, for all that "holiness" and devotion, I haven't seen a single ounce of actual tolerance or basic human decency from them.