Posts by Jason Ortiz5

Lawrence Torres56 said:Think about it—seven years of forty-five-minute sessions twice a week—how exactly do you expect that to undo fourteen years of being raised in an environment where they're learning a completely different set of rules twenty-four hours a day?
And why did the Catholic Church fail here?
If anyone dropped the ball, it’s strictly the parents who are setting a terrible example for their kids...
I mean, how can you seriously expect a child to listen to a lesson about loving others as themselves in class, only to head home and see nothing but "every man for himself" from their own parents?

Bullying doesn't stem from true believers or atheists; it comes from the people who flip-flop between the two whenever it suits them.

When you've got kids, especially during those crazy teenage years, home life isn't the only thing shaping them. I'm not trying to excuse parents who say one thing but do another—which, let's face it, happens a lot—but I just wanted to bring up that old saying about how it takes a whole village to raise a child.
And since the whole argument for religious education is that it instills these specific "moral" values, then yeah, it's pretty clear it's failing its main mission.

rowdypanther12 said:I was wondering if there’s any data available on how many people attend Mass on Sundays at least semi-regularly?

Even if that info exists, I've got a feeling the numbers wouldn't be exactly something we'd want to brag about. 😜

Drew Johnson2 said:Exactly. A close friend of mine has two kids attending that school—one is about six and the other is eight... Religion class always seems to be scheduled as either the very first period or the absolute last one. Everyone ends up taking it. I suppose you could say that’s how most of the grade levels have it structured, though I can't quite wrap my head around why they wouldn't just standardize it for everyone...

I haven't the slightest clue, nor do I have the energy to sign up for anything or engage in any sort of debate; we’ve already pushed through more than half of the schooling years by now, and there's no way the younger ones will end up at this particular school anyway. It isn't just about religion class, mind you, there's a whole host of other matters involved...

And really, who can blame me for moving into the most devout Catholic neighborhood in town? On Sundays, when Mass is being held, you can't even walk down the street without it being completely blocked off because everyone is heading toward the church... 😉

You could've picked a much harder route! I moved to a town that basically centers around its own massive shrine and survives entirely on religious tourism. Being an atheist, I honestly had zero clue what that actually meant for daily life. And let me tell you, the whole vibe of the town definitely spills over into the local schools.

Man, my biggest "fail" was when the local priest started doing house blessings. My auntie—who's also an atheist, by the way—left her gate wide open just because she didn't want to offend the priest she works with. (It’s kind of a local thing here; leaving the gate open is how you signal you're inviting the priest in). Since we live on the ground floor, he rang our bell first. I had absolutely no idea what was happening, so I opened the door, saw the priest, politely told him, "We don't need anything, thanks!" and shut the door right in his face. Can you believe that? Let's just say the whole town had something to gossip about thanks to me for at least a week. 😶

rowdypanther12 said:I mean, sure, it’s easy enough to shuffle one kid into a hallway or tuck two into a classroom where they have religion studies. But trying to find a spot for three? That's getting complicated, not to mention the other issues.
We’re seeing more kids skipping out on these classes here too, and it definitely shows in how they act. Since the teacher is honestly wonderful, I'm sure she'd find a way to make things work for just one student, but this way is definitely easier on her, too.

In my kid's class of 26, about six of them skip the religious studies period entirely. The lucky ones who live close by get an extra hour of free time on Monday mornings, while the ones who take the school bus end up stuck hanging out in the locker room for an hour. It's the same deal with their second session later in the week. Since we live right across the street from the school, my kid usually just sprints home to grab a snack, whereas everyone else is stuck waiting in the locker room. Apparently, they aren't allowed to hang out in the hallways anymore, and the library is always packed. Luckily, the school has security cameras installed. I've already had that nagging thought that these kids might end up being blamed if anything goes missing or someone loses their gear.

Religious studies is one of those subjects that everyone ends up paying for, yet it somehow manages to divide kids into "us" and "them." It’s funny because even though the teachers are paid through our tax dollars rather than by any church, religious content still finds a way to be pushed onto everyone, whether they signed up for the class or not. Plus, because it's baked right into the curriculum, students end up losing out on time that could have been spent on much more practical, valuable subjects...

briskbison55 said:Even the parents of kids who opt out of religious classes are still paying into the system that covers health insurance for everyone, including those who don't want those classes. Are we going to audit that too? And what about minority rights? Or LGBTQ+ rights? It’s kind of wild to read people complaining about things they actually benefit from $3.25 instead of questioning the things they're constantly receiving $33.

And since when do parents of non-religious kids skip out on health insurance? Seriously, nobody told me about this—I'm still getting billed!

As for the LGBTQ+ community, I'd happily give $33. Honestly, not one priest ever told my kid they'd be roasting in hell forever if they weren't a lesbian. Unlike some of these kids sitting through religious studies classes.

briskbison55 said:I guess I'll just ignore the black-and-white way I phrased my last post and just offer a warning: the Roman Empire basically slaughtered the entire known world just because they wanted to spread their powerful civilization, which was built entirely on slaves serving a tiny group of 'enlightened' people. And then, I suppose I should also ignore the fact that those Romans and Greeks eventually converted to the faith of the very slaves they used to rule.

It's nothing like the Crusades, which were actually motivated by humanitarian goals.

briskbison55 said:I mean, you really shouldn't go calling on those history buffs too aggressively... because, I don't know, they might just end up explaining how the first schools actually came from the Church. And honestly? They’d probably be right. Without the Church, I guess humanity wouldn't have even made it out of the Middle Ages, or at least not in the way we know it. It's just one of those things, maybe.

I’m saying this for the third time now—look, we shouldn't be being all exclusive here. Not that I want to sound completely brainless or like some total weirdo for how I phrased it, but seriously... if you actually took my last post at face value, you might need to go get your head checked. My whole point was just to mock the idea that parents need to hold their kids' hands every single second instead of just letting them go out and play. That's all it was.

Quinn:

Religious education and the church teaching kids about ethics and morality? I mean, really... what kind of ethics are we actually talking about here? Is it the kind where you just go around discriminating against anyone who doesn't believe exactly what you believe? Or maybe it's that whole thing where you judge someone just because they don't feel the same way you do? It feels a bit off, I guess. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but it seems like it's more about drawing lines in the sand than actually being a good person.

I mean, no matter how much those judgmental types and similar folks keep harping on about it, the church just doesn't teach that stuff. It’s such a massive issue here—you have people running religious education classes whose own kids don't even attend. It’s honestly just this senseless intolerance for no reason at all. I guess... I don't know, it feels like tolerance should really be the hallmark of you progressive atheists, right? It just makes sense. 😉

Quinn:

It’s just... I don't know, this whole chauvinistic moral code where being "male" is somehow the center of the universe? It’s everywhere. You’ve got the male god, the male savior, the male priest—basically, everything is framed through men, while women are treated like these second-class beings, just some afterthought created from a rib or something. Like, apparently, a woman isn't even fit to hold a position of power or pass down something as "sacred" as the word of God. Honestly, I don't know how people live like that. It actually makes me feel sick, thinking about this kind of "morality and ethics." It's just... ugh.

Yeah, that's definitely a red herring—like, a totally biased way of looking at things without showing even a shred of tolerance for anyone else's perspective. I mean, honestly, this is exactly why we have to make sure everyone actually has the right to choose for themselves... otherwise, these kinds of lies just end up being accepted as the absolute truth. It's scary, really.
Quinn:

The Ten Commandments? I mean, isn't it kind of sad, honestly... like, if someone is actually a believer, shouldn't they just *know* better? It feels a bit heavy-handed, I guess. Like, does God really have to step in and go, "Hey, don't kill people," or "Don't steal stuff"? Those are just basic human decency things, right? It’s almost a little pathetic that those kinds of rules even need to be laid out like that. Maybe I'm overthinking it, or maybe I'm just being cynical, but it feels a bit redundant, you know?

I mean, I could probably ask you... is it actually kind of sad? Like, the fact that we seriously need laws written down just to tell people, "Hey, don't kill anyone" or "Don't steal stuff or you're going to jail." It feels heavy when you think about it. Back then, before all this legal paperwork, there was just... this other kind of justice, I guess. Maybe it was more raw? But I suppose the biggest thing is that we shouldn't be pulling things out of their historical context, right? You can't really judge how things worked back then by looking at them through today's lens. That's just... yeah, it's a lot to wrap your head around.

Quinn:

I mean, we secular folks don't exactly need some deity hovering over us telling us what's right or wrong... we just know, you know? We wouldn't want to do bad stuff anyway. And honestly, we don't need someone threatening us with the devil just to make us act decent. Ethics and morality? They come from people, not from God.

So, I guess that’s why religious studies is an elective in American schools—it's totally up to you.
Quinn:

Studies have actually shown that kids raised in religious environments tend to be less tolerant and more aggressive toward their peers. Just think about why that might be.

And, uh, there are also studies saying that people who believe everything they read online are usually wrong most of the time, too... maybe think about why that happens.

Quinn:

Parents and society are the ones teaching them morality.

Great—less than 10% of highly educated Americans, plus a fair amount of people without even a high school diploma. It’s almost a miracle that kids aren't all just watching MTV or listening to pop music instead of enrolling in trade schools rather than philosophy degrees and other... well, useless stuff.😉

Or we would've gotten out of it a whole lot faster.

So, was there really nothing happening between those wild tribes—kind of like a scene out of an Oakland commercial—and that lightning-fast engraving of the "10 Commandments"?
Hey, any historians out there feeling brave?

briskbison55 said:Well, personally, I find the exaggeration a bit much. Like, do you have an issue with the Ten Commandments? Of course not. Sure, how someone chooses to follow them is another story, and that’s why we need actual laws, but those general guidelines are just as important as how you're raised at home or your own character. I see religious ed no differently than any other lecture; you get a framework and some principles, and then it's up to you how you use them. I think anyone who views it strictly as brainwashing is totally missing the point and looking at the whole thing through a really narrow lens.

Wait, so before people heard about the Ten Commandments, everyone just did whatever they wanted and everything was fine? Like, they just suddenly discovered the concept of good and evil out of nowhere? Is there a history teacher on here who can give our forum buddy a quick lesson?

James Alvarez2 said:I mean, you probably have a hard time even making sense of all those dots, commas, and the total lack of spacing...
Just a reminder...

@Steve (I was literally just typing your name as Shaquille like five seconds ago...) 🤣 So you're basically claiming you're Steve... 🤣)

The way you write about believers hits home sometimes. I don't really fall into that category you're describing, but man... I can totally see where you're coming from if you're stuck dealing with those types of people daily... 😢

Don't let it get to you. I'm not trying to paint everyone with the same brush or say all believers are like that. But you have to admit, you know you're in the minority here. Most people who call themselves religious are just doing it out of habit, or because it's convenient, or because they tie their faith to their national identity. They haven't actually put in the work to learn anything about what they claim to believe.

My best friend is a believer. She's an amazing person, honestly one of the best people I know.

Honestly, looking at everything they cram into those private religious classes, I’m starting to think the gaps in the daily schedule aren't even the biggest issue. ☕

It just feels gross to me—this idea that religion gets to own the monopoly on morality. I actually heard someone mention in class the other day that most religious folks don't even have a clue what "morality" actually means by definition. Teaching kids to view the world through that specific lens from such a young age? It doesn't do anyone any favors. And let's be real: when you have a subject that basically tells some kids that everyone else—anyone who doesn't fit their mold—is somehow "bad" or less worthy, there is absolutely no reason for that to be happening in our public schools funded by all of us.

briskbison55 said:I mean, Isaac Newton wouldn't exactly agree with that claim. Neither would Faust Vrančić or Roger Bacon.

And honestly, if you brought them back to life today and gave them a crash course on everything we've figured out since their time, what do you think they'd actually say?

Religious studies in schools just feels off to me. It teaches kids a perspective that isn't based on facts, which basically clashes with everything else they learn in science class. Plus, faith is such a deeply personal thing—it shouldn't really be part of a public school curriculum in a secular country like the US. Not to mention, it leaves huge gaps in the school day and creates this massive opportunity for bullying.

You keep bringing up how 86% of people in America are Catholic. But honestly, if we actually polled the elementary school kids, I bet the percentage of them who believe in Santa Claus would be just as high. Since parents are the ones planting those seeds of belief in both God and Santa, can we use that same logic we're seeing on this thread to introduce Frosty the Snowman into the curriculum too? Or something like that?

shadowcrane91 said:Basically, over fifty posts later, I still haven't seen a single coherent argument explaining why it's somehow "great" that these non-religious kids are forced to be independent by sitting alone in the hallway during class instead of being in the room.

NON-RELIGIOUS KIDS?????
Honestly, kids today need to be way more independent than they already are...
Don't you think?

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NON-RELIGIOUS KIDS?????
Honestly, kids today need to be way more independent than they already are...
Don't you think?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy J3 using Reddit

NON-RELIGIOUS KIDS?????
Honestly, kids today need to be way more independent than they already are...
Don't you think?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy J3 using Reddit
Are you really struggling with the concept of what makes sense?

Larry Walker24 said:Seriously, why hasn't anyone filed a lawsuit with the Supreme Court about this yet?

They totally did. That joke of a Supreme Court just claimed they don't even have jurisdiction over it.

shadowcrane91 said:Look, in any country, the majority calls the shots. Whoever the majority picks, that's how it works...
The majority voted for the Republican Party, so the Republican Party is running things....
The majority identified as Catholic, so we’re a Catholic nation.....

Besides, people have choices.... nobody is forcing anyone to be Catholic or show up to Sunday school.....

Go ahead, try to name one single country where religion and politics aren't completely intertwined.....

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There it is. You can clearly see what happens when schools don't teach civic responsibility.

Not only is what you're saying inaccurate, but it gets pretty scary when people with that kind of zeal start grabbing onto these ideas.

shadowcrane91 said:My kids walk to school by themselves.....
So basically—I'm just totally neglecting them..... poor things.....

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Honestly, I can't even begin to tell you how much I love chatting with people who twist everything just to make themselves right. ☕

shadowcrane91 said:So you're claiming not all kids are the same, or equally independent, etc... and honestly? They don't have to be. But that’s no excuse for raising them to be total pushovers who are scared of their own shadows.

Teach them stuff... what have you been waiting for?

For them to wander out onto a busy highway?
Or for them to start school totally clueless about how to handle themselves or deal with other kids?
Real great...

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Under American law, kids can't just be left unsupervised. It's pretty straightforward. Most people figure that a 6, 7, or 8-year-old isn't quite ready to handle every single dangerous situation life throws at them—even if parents try not to "treat them like snowflakes." There's actually a legal term for leaving them totally on their own: neglect.

Nancy Kelly31 said:Actually, that was simply when religious education returned to the school system... though I suppose factual accuracy isn't particularly important when one is more interested in sparking a revolution or making sure everything sounds sufficiently modern and progressive...

I mean, if we aren't going for "modern," should we just bring back corporal punishment and being forced to kneel in the cornfield?