4456 posts shown.
Nathan Jones98 said:Are you blind?
Amanda Kelly said:If it hadn't been for that nasty squeeze and being forced wide, Fernando Alonso would have taken the lead into Turn 1 in Bahrain.
Jason Campbell70 said:See, see...
Amanda Kelly said:Hold on, I actually agree—it was totally possible. Vettel looked incredible, just super aggressive in that beast of a car.
But you can't make a definitive diagnosis based on just the first couple of laps, so that part of the statement doesn't really hold water for me.
Vettel was clearly in top-tier form, while Alonso wasn't even in the frame.
So, I wouldn't bet $3.25 that Alonso wouldn't end up taking it anyway.
steelmaker83 said:By "eventually," I didn't mean he wasn't fighting, because he was—he was the only real threat.
What I meant was the broader context of that entire season—the "illegal" stuff regarding the Brawn dominance, and the fact that Sebastian Vettel was still relatively green and prone to rookie mistakes back then.
So, I misspoke—of course he was fighting for the title in 2009, he just wasn't fully mature yet. That's what I meant.
Honestly, I think today's Sebastian Vettel would have beaten the 2009 version of Jenson Button in that Brawn car.
And I agree that all drivers fight for the title; I never said they didn't. But when you look back at things retrospectively, you analyze them based on the final outcome. It's like how Lewis Hamilton had every advantage to become champion last season, yet in the end, he wasn't even a factor in the fight—so he was fighting, but he wasn't really fighting. I hope that's clear.
steelmaker83 said:Sebastian Vettel hasn't been fighting for titles since he joined F1; he's been fighting for them over the last three seasons and maybe 2009.
Take 2011, for example. Even if the McLaren was arguably the best car on the grid that year (just like the following season), it was specifically Fernando Alonso in 2011 who provided such intense—albeit futile—resistance.
The fact that Button finished further down the standings than Alonso that year, despite being in what might have been the best car on the grid, says everything you need to know about Button... and McLaren.
steelmaker83 said:Sebastian Vettel hasn't been fighting for titles since he joined F1; he's been fighting for them over the last three seasons and maybe 2009.
Take 2011, for example. Even if the McLaren was arguably the best car on the grid that year (just like the following season), it was specifically Fernando Alonso in 2011 who provided such intense—albeit futile—resistance.
The fact that Button finished further down the standings than Alonso that year, despite being in what might have been the best car on the grid, says everything you need to know about Button... and McLaren.
steelmaker83 said:Sebastian Vettel hasn't been fighting for titles since he joined F1; he's been fighting for them over the last three seasons and maybe 2009.
Take 2011, for example. Even if the McLaren was arguably the best car on the grid that year (just like the following season), it was specifically Fernando Alonso in 2011 who provided such intense—albeit futile—resistance.
The fact that Button finished further down the standings than Alonso that year, despite being in what might have been the best car on the grid, says everything you need to know about Button... and McLaren.
Amanda Kelly said:Look, this year Vettel only beat Fernando Alonso when the guy was driving a broken car.
Whenever Alonso actually had decent tech, Vettel lost.
So yeah, this is finally the season where we can talk about Ferrari having actual, decent material.
Jason Campbell70 said:Subconsciously, you left out Sebastian Vettel.
Nathan Jones98 said:Are you for real?
You're looking at Kimi Raikkonen's title from back when he was driving—wait, remind me... oh yeah, Toro Rosso
Remind me what he was driving during Lewis Hamilton's era—man, no, also Toro Rosso
Remind me about 2009? Button absolutely crushed the competition and proved he wasn't someone to be dismissed
Nathan Jones98 said:Vettel keeps getting brought up because he always seems to end up in the fastest car or just gets incredibly lucky.
I honestly haven't seen an F1 driver with this much luck—and just as much lack of skill—when it comes to actually passing people on the track...
What Alonso pulled off in Bahrain was the real deal—it showed what a true F1 driver can do when they're fighting against a massive handicap.
steelmaker83 said:Why is that strange? These two are the only ones fighting for titles over the last three years, so naturally, everyone else is sidelined. It’s a good thing a third driver eventually steps up to shake things up...
Jason Campbell70 said:I can say with certainty that I support "your way."
I won't get involved in who your "target" is; that choice is yours alone.
But I cannot agree with this last part.
To be honest, I couldn't care less about the portion of Alonso's career before his time at Ferrari... but in what way, and through what specific actions, did Fernando Alonso shame teams with "dishonest actions, cheating, lies, rigging, blackmail, and betrayal"?
Jason Campbell70 said:"The McLaren 2007 Quote : The Best F1 driver was more dominant than the Red Bull RB 2011."
So much for "objectivity." 👍
Jason Campbell70 said:Short and sweet. 🙂
When people start questioning a driver's actual talent this much—after all those broken records and massive wins—it suggests there’s more going on than just "fan bias."
I mean, these kinds of debates aren't exactly exclusive to an American message board.
Where there's this much smoke, there's usually a hell of a fire.
Jerry Rogers6 said:Where exactly was this "most decorated" driver during the first half of last season—you know, back when everyone else was struggling with garbage cars too? And how did that first half of the season actually pan out?
And just for fun—throw Kimi instead of Max into the mix and let him chase Lewis around; I'd love to see how long he lasts before Lewis leaves him in the dust.
Susan Alvarez94 said:The point of comparing a Formula 1 car to a NASCAR stock car isn't the machinery itself, but rather the specific circumstances surrounding their respective victories. Of course. However, I refuse to deify Vettel simply because he secured three consecutive championships. Winning titles doesn't inherently make him some incomparable icon. I am merely pointing out that there exists a subset of fanatics who cheer for Vettel by waving his championship count in people's faces, refusing to engage with any other logic. Why should I—or anyone else—be prevented from arguing that another driver might possess superior raw talent compared to Vettel? Is it possible the technical setup is so hyper-specific that if we swapped Alonso and Vettel into their current cars right now, neither would even sniff a podium finish? My contention is this: in the modern era, it has become nearly impossible to isolate an individual driver's skill from the performance of the machine they are piloting.
Furthermore, I maintain that the regulations have been repeatedly manipulated specifically to break up periods of dominance—first targeting Ferrari, and subsequently Red Bull. None of these interventions serve the integrity of the sport. If you don't have the capital to develop millions of dollars worth of engine components annually, you shouldn't be expected to contend for points in F1. The same applies to engine development and the various other technical arms races.