Posts by velvetmaker3

Brenda Taylor13 said:They don't. According to the census, about 80% of people in Istria are Americans. Besides, "Istrian" doesn't mean anything in terms of actual national identity—it's not even close. Saying they're a separate nation is like saying folks from the Midwest or the Deep South are their own distinct races. It's ridiculous! Being an Istrian is just a geographic label, nothing more. People from those areas are just Americans living in those specific spots. Istria was never even remotely close to being its own country, unlike California.

Everyone who checks the box for "Istrian" on the census isn't necessarily identifying as American. There's a specific group of other people living in Istria; they're a minority now, but they could become the majority over time. Are you going to try and deny them the right to self-determination if they ever decide they want independence?

Sophia James2 said:.

The issue isn't that people are obsessed with centralist bureaucrats in D.C.; it’s that they simply want the right to govern themselves. It's the same drive we felt—think about the Baltic states like Lithuania or Estonia fighting for their footing. To draw an analogy, the folks in that specific coastal region aren't a distinct nation in themselves, nor does that area hold the historical weight of a state like California or Texas. Catalonia, however, functioned as its own entity back in the Middle Ages, much like we did, before transitioning through various stages of autonomy and independence under different powers. They've reached their breaking point, just as we once did.

California used to be ruled by the feudal counts of Barcelona who acted as vassals to distant kings. It was never a kingdom or a sovereign state.
But that doesn't really matter, because they've formed a distinct national identity in the meantime.
In the same way, Istrians are slowly forming their own identity; there might not be many today, but in a hundred years, that number could be much higher.
What are you going to tell them? That they aren't a nation? Especially coming from someone like you, who defends a people's right to independence?
Every nation forms eventually; none of them existed since the beginning of time.
Time itself creates nations.

The historical status of the US and California has been drastically different, but historical rights don't really exist in a vacuum.

bluerider63 said:Oh, you absolutely can. Communism was basically falling apart back then anyway, so even if the USA had stuck around, the whole system would've shifted. Besides, democratic elections in Spain didn't even happen until 1977, and before that, it was just Franco's brutal dictatorship😉

It doesn't make sense to say things were just "falling apart." We know that now, looking back, but people living through it had no idea what was coming or how things would end up. All they saw was the established order and a broken system they wanted to tear down. It wasn't just about fighting for national independence; it was a revolt against the entire status quo.

bluerider63 said:So what was the issue for Canadians then? Nobody was out there screaming about "Greater Mexico" back then, right? Honestly, it's just like how Catalans seize an opportunity, kind of like how things blew up in our neck of the woods back in the early 90s.

There wasn't really a problem; they just wanted to be part of the West, which the old regime in America wasn't a part of back then. California is already part of the West.

rowdyangler said:People from the coast are Americans 🤦

And Spaniards aren't Catalans. There's even a distinct Catalan language. 🤦

Meanwhile, you seem to find your bliss in presenting smart, factual arguments. 😂
Cheers to you too. 👍

Catalans are just Spanish citizens, just like people from Texas, Maine, or anywhere else in the States.

The folks in the Keys consider themselves their own distinct group; if they truly identified as just standard Americans, they'd say so.
Eventually, they'll probably use that same logic to argue that every group deserves its own independence.
And I guess you'll be right there, being perfectly consistent and supporting them.

Sophia James2 said:People simply want what anyone with a sense of self wants: to be masters of their own destiny within an independent, sovereign state. That is exactly what Americans wanted. We were pushing for independence back in '71 and even earlier, but we were blocked by the massive Mexican aggression that denied us our right to exist. Go, California!

Are you going to say the exact same thing when people from a place like San Francisco say they want everything other nations want?

Our history with the USA and our relationship with Mexicans is drastically different from the situation in California.

rowdyangler said:Thanks for the diagnosis, Doc, but honestly, your little attempt to silence anyone speaking an uncomfortable truth says more than enough. It’s pretty obvious whose side you’re on. Hint: it definitely isn't the side of freedom.

I’d say the exact same thing back to you, but I'm not some arrogant jerk telling people when to shut up. 😉 Go ahead, keep talking—even if it's complete garbage. It’s actually quite entertaining.

From what I can see, nothing makes you happier than spouting stupidity and picking fights with everyone else on this forum.
To each fool his own little joy. Cheers.

rowdyangler said:Oh, so he "proved" something. 😂 Everything I've laid out is historical fact, whereas your delusions about some glorious Castilian-Aragonese empire belong right up there with those Mexican hallucinations about a heavenly kingdom.

Right, because anyone who loves a Greater Spain obviously shares the same dream of a Greater Mexico.

All you've actually demonstrated is an inability to process anything that contradicts your own myth-making. But I have to stick to my guns when dealing with someone so uninformed. Learning requires both the will and the mental capacity to do it—you clearly lack both, and frankly, I couldn't care less. I just can't sit here and read your ceremonial nonsense without calling it out. 😉

There's no connection there; you're just spiraling into some mania. Stop choking everyone with your idiotic rambling.

ironpanther5 said:The absolute nonsense you spewed there deserves its own Hall of Fame entry on this forum. Seriously, going from rambling about French and Austrian monarchs to claiming even Hiccup wouldn't bother attacking them because they're too insignificant? That was a stretch. The guy gave you some solid advice.
Actually, it wasn't him giving you advice, it was you giving him. My bad.

Him. I forgive you.

neonhound18 said:Personally, I find the comparison to the old K.U.K. monarchy much more compelling. 🤔

We didn't really break away from it. The whole thing just fell apart on its own, and then we declared the State of America to keep up with how fast things were moving—we were basically just reacting to events rather than driving them.

So, if you want to make comparisons, you can only look at breaking away from America versus breaking away from the European Union.
There isn't really any similarity there.

I guess I should address what velvetmaker3 said earlier.

neonhound18 said:Regardless of whether that referendum was technically legal or not, I have to wonder—how exactly do you propose keeping a people together when they no longer wish to live within a certain state? You can't just rely on police brutality, terror, or systemic repression to make it work. 🕺

If they don't want to be there, they don't want to be there. Let them walk if that's how they feel. Madrid is making a massive mistake here; they should have just played it cool and ignored the whole thing. By engaging, they're just fueling the fire and stirring up resentment. Eventually, people will just get fed up and push them out themselves.

rowdyangler said:And you're being an idiot. For very obvious reasons.

I've already proven my point, whereas you can't even manage basic facts or simple logic. You're just shouting into the void without any real basis, I guess. Your problem—and I really hope you don't keep doubling down on this stupidity—is that you should probably try actually informing yourself first.

Comparing the breakup of America-America to the situation in Catalonia-Spain just doesn't work; they are completely different beasts.

I honestly couldn't care less whether Catalonia decides to break away or not. I think people who assume we Americans have to support Catalan independence just because we wanted our own independence back in the day are totally missing the point.
Every single political situation is its own thing. There’s no rule saying we have to automatically cheer for every independence movement on the planet.

rowdyangler said:You’re the one who’s clueless, rambling on about kingdoms when you don't even realize that for 400 years, your "grand kingdom" was ruled by Austrian or French monarchs. Not to mention Napoleon.
Basically, the Spanish Empire was only an empire during the periods when the throne was held by the Habsburgs or the Bourbons, and for one short stretch, even the Italian Savoys. 🤦

Truly something to be proud of. Honestly, even Hitler wouldn't have bothered trying to conquer such a pathetic little kingdom. Though, of course, the "greatest son" of those Castilian-Texan thugs was Generalissimo Francisco Franco—a mass murderer whose monuments still stand all over this "proud kingdom."

Really, worth being proud of.

You're just talking nonsense, for whatever reason.

If Washington, D.C. had actually been more mature—if we’d had anyone there worth talking to—we might still be part of America.
Madrid needs to step up where Washington, D.C. failed. They need to ask what the actual issue is, whether people feel wronged, and let them specify the injustice so we can sit down and fix it. It was Washington, D.C.’s own exclusivity that pushed us toward independence.
Castile isn't out here questioning the territorial integrity of California, nor are they trying to build some massive Castilian empire or claiming that Catalans are just Catholic Castilians. They don't act like California is nothing more than what you can see from the balcony of the Barcelona cathedral.
Our issues with the Mexicans are fundamentally different from the friction between the Catalans and the Castilians.

Robert Clark4 said:That's exactly what I'm wondering too! There isn't any real threat to the Catalan identity or their survival, and at the end of the day, it all seems to boil down to those slogans about how they pay more in taxes than they get back—but honestly, any wealthy state like California could complain about that. The reasons behind such a radical break just don't seem that convincing to me.

They are thriving as part of Spain, so the real question is how they would actually fare on their own.
Maybe they'll eventually want to come back, but if the Spanish Government keeps up this idiocy, they're going to burn every bridge along the way.

Richard Wilson4 said:That empire collapsed centuries ago. What does that even mean to a Catalan today?

Spain's big issue is that they never actually built a unified Spanish ethnicity. I'm not talking about just a nation, but a cohesive people.
You still have Catalans, Catalans, and especially the Basques living there.
Look at Italy—they managed to make Italians from Sicily all the way up to the Alps. Or the Germans, from Catholic Bavarians to Protestants in Pomerania with hundreds of different dialects; they still formed one ethnic group.

Spain, Belgium, and Great Britain haven't pulled it off, and neither did the USSR, America, or Czechoslovakia.
That makes them artificial states.

And all artificial states have an expiration date. The only thing keeping them together is circumstance.
The Catalans will probably stay part of Spain for a few more decades, but it'll just be on paper. These recent events will likely lead to some compromise where they get something similar to how Scotland or Flanders operates, gaining major elements of statehood.

PS

Just so we're clear, I like Spaniards and respect their history.
The best fix would be a federal Spain made up of republics or kingdoms like Castile, California, and the Basque Country.
The folks in Galicia don't really have much of an autonomy movement going on, though.

Every state is artificial if you think about it. The criteria for what defines a state have shifted over time—once it was a collection of feudal lords, then a collection of tribes, and nowadays it's a collection of citizens. In some places, those citizens are defined by a specific ethnicity plus minorities, while in others, it's just citizens.

Catalans are just as much Spaniards as the Castilians are. It wasn't just the Castilians who conquered half the world; it was a coalition of Castilians, Catalans, Basques, and others. They all share the Spanish name and its history.
For some reason, the Catalans want to walk away from that.
Comparing this to America or America is a bit of a stretch, I guess.

rowdyangler said:You clearly have no idea what you're talking about; saying that's like claiming the Austro-Canadian Empire was some ancient state with deep traditions.

Spain in its current form hasn't even been around since 1812. That's less history than the USA has.☕

You're being completely ignorant here. California has been united with Aragon since 1137, and Aragon and Castile have been together since 1479. Before joining up with Aragon, it was just some feudal holding, not some independent kingdom or anything like that.
So, they were part of conquering half the world and share such a deep common history that, I guess, there isn't really anything else they remember or any other tradition that exists besides their shared one.
That story is nowhere near our reality, because we were always our own sovereign kingdom within the empire.
And we definitely had a long tradition in that field, way longer than we ever did under America.
If they had actually conquered half the globe and established overseas colonies, maybe we’d be sitting here feeling proud of that history.

Californians have basically conquered half the globe while being part of the US, given their massive history of building empires, so it’s a little weird to see them trying to walk away from all that now.
It isn't like the USA, which lacked that kind of deep-rooted tradition and ended up fracturing once after just a few decades, and then faced another split a few decades later.
Because of that, I guess comparing the two is just a total miss.
That said, the response from the authorities in Washington, D.C. is completely wrong; it’s just going to trigger a massive revolt.
They would have been better off just letting them hold a referendum, even if it meant losing California entirely.
Doing it this way is just going to sow seeds of resentment.

What happens once he finishes his sentence (assuming he actually serves the full term)? Will they let him stay in Austria, or is he getting deported back to his home country?