Posts by velvetmaker3

Brenda Murphy3 said:And why on earth do you think it's a provocation?
Personally, I feel like if they’d just held a legitimate referendum—you know, with an actual campaign and everything being above board—it probably wouldn't have even passed. California would've likely voted to stay part of the US. But after all the chaos and the totally tone-deaf response from Madrid, who knows anymore? By taking such an aggressive stance, they’ve honestly done way more damage than good.

On the flip side, calling a vote where this many people show up—especially considering the blatant crackdown—a "provocation"... well, that's at least a bit of a stretch, isn't it?

The reaction from Madrid is wrong, sure, but it's also wrong to try and force a referendum by banging your head against a wall when Californians aren't even under threat; they're living better than they ever have in their history.
If they were truly in danger, I wouldn't say anything, but they aren't. They're just playing the victim because of some short-term, one-off police action. God forbid they have to deal with life under Madrid's rule.

Arthur Collins3 said:Honestly, this post feels more like the provocation.
You’re out here denying millions of people their right to vote in a referendum, yet you're demanding your own right to speak on a forum? You really don't see the hypocrisy there?

You’re basically dismissing the boycott of millions of Californians and acting like an aggressive minority actually has the right to tear apart a nation with hundreds of years of history.

Brenda Murphy3 said:Seriously, people need to stop making these comparisons. They’re number one, totally nonsensical, and number two, they aren't even remotely comparable (not even close!) and have zero basis in reality.

How many times do I have to say it? California is its own distinct entity within Spain, possessing clear autonomy over a whole bunch of things. If you want a real comparison, you'd look at something like Scotland, or maybe how a state functions within the USA (though I’d probably steer clear of comparing it to the old US structure back then, since that involved a massive political overhaul and dealing with an undemocratic system...).

Which means it isn't being threatened.
Keep in mind that change is constant; if a referendum is sufficient, anyone can hold one, anytime and anywhere—that would include places like California or Ohio. It doesn't matter if Americans happen to be the majority there; their national identity doesn't invalidate their right to express their will. Anyone could claim that, "We don't want our tax dollars going to Washington, D.C. or Madrid; we want independence."
Should the federal government just let them go just because that's what they want?

Megan Jones10 said:Look, sure, you can use a baton, but all that does is push the fence-sitters right over the edge into full-blown antagonism. Personally, I think it’s smarter to work on the relationships so things don't escalate. Once the batons come out, then the guns start firing, and we all know how that ends. Take Florida, for example—things would go south fast for the US there because so many people have dual citizenship. You wouldn't just be hitting Americans; you'd be hitting Italians too, and you can bet Italy isn't going to sit back while their citizens get targeted.

If shots are fired, someone wins—it could be one side or the other.

So, what you're saying is Italy would just step in to stop an uprising from people trying to break away from US territory? What do we call that? Aggression? Irredentism? Or is it just a fight for freedom?

Morgan Cook10 said:Honestly, I’d bet against them.

But that's kind of beside the point... because what you're trying to do here is put a price tag on freedom. It’s like... let me try another marriage analogy. You don't decide whether to get a divorce based solely on a spreadsheet. Sure, money plays a part in the decision eventually, but a cold economic calculation isn't the only thing that matters when it comes to life-changing choices.

What kind of freedom are we even talking about? They aren't being oppressed. We shouldn't be throwing around phrases like "freedom" so loosely; it’s honestly just disrespectful to the people who actually had to fight to earn it.

Morgan Cook10 said:And look... when you hold a referendum under repressive conditions, you aren't going to meet the standards found in actual democratic and civilized societies.

As for legitimacy... I’d argue that legitimacy was lost the moment they sent the police out to beat up citizens.

Why did they even push for this referendum in the first place? They aren't actually under any kind of threat; this whole thing is just a blatant provocation.

Morgan Cook10 said:Since they’ve gone and turned things upside down over in Madrid, it feels like... well, I don't know, maybe it's intentional, maybe it isn't, but it definitely feels like they're just stirring the pot.

Sure, things stay peaceful as long as they play nice and act like good little citizens. But the second they actually step up to a standard referendum? That’s when they start swinging for the fences.

This isn't just some regular referendum.

Morgan Cook10 said:Look... you missed the part I added earlier, which you conveniently skipped over.

To start with... as far as I know, we have 2.2 million ballots cast, plus about 770k that the police seized (according to the news). Roughly speaking... it looks like the majority of the classes actually showed up for the referendum.

The organizers easily made up for the ones that were seized. This whole referendum was out of control, especially since there weren't any observers present.
Just imagine if voting worked like this here: you bring pre-filled ballots from home, toss them in the box, then hit a few different polling stations just to drop off a handful more each time.
The referendum is completely illegitimate—not because it was illegal per se, but because there was absolutely zero oversight during the voting process.

Megan Jones10 said:Honestly, I don't think they care about any of that history anymore. It's all about the cash now. The economy in Spain is tanking—the government is basically doing nothing except driving the youth out of the country. Unemployment is sitting around 21%, which is a total disaster, so they're just sending everyone abroad to find work. Obviously, there's going to be a breaking point.
It’s like a family where the dad spends his whole paycheck on booze instead of feeding his wife and kids. Eventually, the wife is gonna kick him to the curb and take the kids with her, and the kids will be totally embarrassed by him. All those early years and "perfect" memories? Gone. Damn, you gotta actually put in the work to keep things together; nothing stays perfect forever.

California is doing well within Spain, but the real question is whether it can stay that way once it's independent.

That alone isn't enough of a reason, though. In any country, a prosperous region might try to break away—whether it's Northern Italy, Northern Ohio, or pretty much anywhere else.

Megan Jones10 said:The Constitution says all kinds of nonsense—honestly, what people actually want matters way more than some piece of paper. Every regime tries to lock itself in using all sorts of loopholes, but if someone's truly ready to walk, you can't stop them unless you resort to war or straight-up oppression... and once you go down that road, it's game over.

Sometimes, all it takes is a few batons.
To actually achieve independence, you need genuine strength and resolve.
Otherwise, maybe even the smallest little town would try to secede just because they woke up on the wrong side of the bed.
They can't, because they lack the muscle.
Now we'll see how much those Californians actually care about leaving, and if Madrid is willing to step in to stop them.

The anti-tourist crowd in Barcelona might want to complain about not having visitors, but for us, it took years just to get them back.

Morgan Cook10 said:Honestly, the second you try to dismiss the will of the people, it’s a dead giveaway that your argument is built on shaky ground.

Imagine if it was just you and me calling all the shots.
If I were in your shoes, I’d suggest holding a brand-new referendum—one done strictly by the book, without any intimidation or pressure, following the highest democratic standards out there. You’d probably even push for something like that strict threshold they use in certain other states where you need a solid 55% majority to trigger a secession.

I’m betting you’d shoot that down too... and let’s face it, the administration in Washington, D.C. definitely would. It’s pretty clear you don't actually care what Californians really think.

There is no "will of the people," there’s just the will of whoever printed the ballots at home.
Plus, most people stayed home and boycotted the referendum.
Choosing an Exit on an issue this critical can definitely be seen as a boycott.

Or do you honestly think most people just don't give a damn about something this important?

Morgan Cook10 said:Maybe try explaining that to the women who ended up in the ER with concussions.

I think we have enough experience around here to know how violence tends to snowball. So far, the federal government has used force just to try and shut down a simple referendum. A few hundred people getting beaten is really just the tip of the iceberg.

It's pretty obvious to me how far they'll go if California actually tries to make a physical break from the country.

The organizers were clearly playing it that way on purpose, trying to make themselves look like victims, which is why they went charging headfirst into trouble. In their day-to-day lives, there isn't any actual violence against Californians, so they had to manufacture it to play the victim card. It's just basic manipulation.

Megan Jones10 said:A people's right to self-determination should never be taken away. Any attempt to fight that usually just ends in war—period. No matter what else is going on, history shows that's how it plays out.

The thing is, they didn't even really form a distinct people until they were part of Spain. There wasn't such a thing as a Californian nation back when the count of Barcelona married the Aragonese princess.

Morgan Cook10 said:There’s plenty we don't know... but this part is pretty clear-cut.

The Catalans want to break away from Spain and set up their own independent nation!🤷

Look, you don't have to agree that California should be its own thing... but trying to hand-wave away the referendum results just makes it look like your arguments are built on sand.

So, we supposedly know that because of some ballots printed at home and the fact that one person can just dump a hundred of them in the box?

Morgan Cook10 said:That "political moment" you're talking about has actually been simmering for decades, maybe even longer.

The mere fact that the government in Madrid has to resort to force says everything you need to know.

It's not true. California doesn't have threatened territory, a threatened language, or a threatened population. Honestly, they're doing just fine.
Stop acting like they're being terrorized by Madrid, because that's just not what's happening.

Megan Jones10 said:I don't buy that Californians are stupid or clueless about what they want. Besides—if they change their minds about being independent, they can always just crawl back to the old union, right?

That’s just not how it works. These kinds of decisions have massive, long-term consequences, and you can't just make them recklessly or without thinking things through properly.
We honestly have no idea what the Catalans actually want.

Megan Jones10 said:Well, they could easily come down hard on folks in Florida too, and then we'd be looking at a real Pandora's box—which is already cracking open thanks to this anti-nationalist nonsense from the current administration. People here aren't exactly feeling much love for Washington, D.C. anyway, so this move would just fuel the fire. I don't even get what the goal is. It definitely isn't helping any true American.

Do you really think I'm happy with the government's policies?
Nobody is satisfied, but that's hardly a reason to secede from the US.
Look at how California handles things; instead of actually enjoying what they have, they just seem to go looking for trouble.

placidrider48 said:There's "no" legitimacy because that damn intervention turned everything into a total mess.
As for the status of Californians, they've been fighting this fight for a long time. Mariano Rajoy is a disaster for all of Spain, especially for Californians, since they aren't Castilian, so they end up getting squeezed even harder.

If there happens to be an honest unionist in Spain who can kick Rajoy out and offer Californians fair terms to hold a redo of the referendum without all the interference, then maybe things could be fixed. As it stands, though, I suspect this marriage is heading for divorce.

I don't really care if California becomes independent or not; I just wish they'd stop acting like victims. Trying to draw parallels with America or Yu is a total miss.

Megan Jones10 said:And that will all come out in the referendum. Messing with the vote and using force just makes everything ten times worse. Honestly, I don't get why anyone is terrified of a secession vote if they're actually confident that nothing will change. If things are really fine the way they are, the people will just vote to stay part of the current system and call it a day.

The thing is, you can't just hijack a passing political moment to tear apart a state that has such deep-rooted traditions.
It feels like today, people just want to hold a referendum and walk away because it's convenient. It doesn't work like that; even a tiny local municipality can't just break off that easily, let alone something on this scale.

Another point is that while there might be instances of ongoing oppression against certain groups, Californians aren't victims in a way that requires independence just to survive.

placidrider48 said:The whole referendum thing was done at gunpoint, though. Americans living in those areas couldn't even vote. And unlike that situation, I don't think the Catalans are the ones walking around with weapons.

If you think a referendum is enough on its own, then I guess any referendum—whether it's in the Midwest or some small town anywhere else—would be enough too.
But it isn't.