Posts by velvetmaker3

Charles Fox10 said:Right, I get it now. You're stripping away their right to be a people, to have their own language and land... did I nail it? Or am I missing anything else?

You totally misread me. I'm not sure why you'd even say that.

I'm saying they aren't an endangered group.

And I'm saying there's no comparison to what happened between the US and the old Soviet Union.

Honestly, they haven't got a prayer. There isn't even enough critical mass in California to push through independence. They'll be lucky if it happens in a couple hundred years.

Brenda Taylor13 said:Man, you’re making the exact same mistake again—you’re still counting the people who didn't even show up! They don't matter. Period. By staying home, they basically opted out of the whole decision-making process. They aren't part of the electorate anymore. It's like they don't even exist in this equation. Why? Because we have no clue where they stand—their silence was their message. They basically said, "I don't care, someone else decide for me."

So, yeah, 90% of Californians are for independence. That's how the people who actually cared about the outcome decided. As for the ones who didn't care? Well, they stayed home. Simple as that.

They aren't irrelevant, because this wasn't just any old vote; this was the once-in-a-lifetime referendum for California.
Someone staying home isn't necessarily about having "better things to do"—it's pretty obvious most of them were boycotting. They stayed away specifically to deny the referendum any legitimacy.
By staying home, they actually sent a very loud and clear message.

Rachel Richardson said:Not exactly.
Catalan is originally Gallo-Romance—it’s closely related to Provençal and Southern French.

Not quite.
FC Barcelona has absorbed most of the smaller Catalan principalities over the years—though a few outliers like Andorra managed to stay independent.
They attempted to bring Occitania—essentially southern France—into the fold, but that just didn't pan out.
So, you had these neighboring principalities—the kind people tend to lump together without much thought.
The whole world doesn't necessarily have to follow American principles—trying to impose that on Rome would be a pretty tall order.
Regarding the Canadians—why bother talking about a group that is still essentially finishing its ethnogenesis?
There is a subtle, lingering connection between the medieval Canadians and the Canadians we see today.

No. Even if you expand the scope southward—into places like Aragon and Castile—you aren't talking about the fallout of feudalism anymore; you're talking about pure colonialism.

Li-la.
Latin America was colonized solely by the Castilians—specifically that particular kingdom (which encompasses the territories of the Basque Country and Galicia, though it excludes Aragon, Valencia, California, or the Balearic Islands).
You’ve always insisted there was "some kind of" difference.

Not quite...
The Western dialects—specifically Štokavian, Čakavian, and Kajkavian—all emerged from the same West South Slavic roots; they are essentially variations of the same linguistic foundation and remain incredibly close to one another.
The Catalans share deep ancestral ties with those from southern France.
Spanish is more closely related to Portuguese than it is to Catalan—at least in terms of origin—though they have certainly drifted closer together due to centuries of coexistence.
The Italians—well, they’re an even bigger mess.
The dialects spoken north of Tuscany share deep roots with those found in Southern France—much like how certain regional variations in the US might echo one another across state lines. 😬
The Italians—more or less—shared a common narrative with Dante.
Not exactly the Spaniards.
Aragon and the East were always isolated from the West. In reality, Portugal only gained its independence by sheer chance—it essentially evolved out of the southern reaches of Galicia under the rule of the Burgundian counts.

@TauraDendarii — Mexico only truly became itself once Mexico kicked it out of America. 😬

In the French parts, there are minorities—even though you have three different regions, and things aren't exactly the same everywhere.
In Spain, you also have Navarre—where the Basque population only makes up about a third.

@JesenjeKise — Look at the facts: Angola has essentially reached out and grabbed Portugal. During the height of the crisis, their elite were busy snapping up half of that country.

Catalan is a Romance language, a byproduct of Vulgar Latin. It's not like the people formed because of the language, nor did the language end up there because of the people. Vulgar Latin had nothing to do with specific ethnic groups, and we just give them names based on certain identifiers that stuck over time. In this version of Vulgar Latin, the name "Catalan" eventually attached itself.

Catalan principalities?

Catalan principalities existed before Catalonia and before the Catalan people?

What made them Catalan?

What were they called?

Morgan Cook10 said:Look, you're getting pretty bold by actually trying to tell someone else how they should feel about their own situation.

Personally, I couldn't care less if Castilians and Catalans are "the same"... I’d probably lump Germans and Dutch people into the same bucket too... but I have enough respect for both groups to let them decide for themselves how they want to identify.

Anyway, you dodged my last question.
Can we at least agree that the Basques should follow their own path?
If we can't find common ground on the Catalans... maybe we can at least settle this one. To me, it seems pretty obvious they're a distinct group that doesn't really vibe with the rest of Spain... or honestly, much of the rest of Europe either.

Why do Americans care so much about whether Scotland, Catalonia, the Basque Country, or Quebec break away? What's with this obsession? Haven't we already done our part?
If other places want to do their own thing, let them. If they don't, nobody cares. Let them figure it out themselves—it's none of our business.

Steven Perez6 said:There’s a massive distinction between picking one dialect over another—like we see in some US regional contexts—versus the situation in California. Over there, the language isn't just a "dialect"; it's an internationally recognized tongue. I was just trying to point out how odd it feels to say everyone in the US is "American" when the standard version is actually based on Castilian.

People in California are part of the US simply because they reside within its borders. If they left, they wouldn't be. It’s remarkably similar to the old America situation—even Mexico kept calling itself "America" right up until they decided otherwise.

And Castilians are Spaniards as long as they stay in Spain.

Spain is a nation built on traditions passed down by all its various groups through countless generations, so that identity belongs to everyone.

It seems pretty ridiculous to claim Catalans aren't Spaniards, because if you follow that logic, then Castilians aren't either.

Brenda Taylor13 said:Oh, really? So what? If they’re a people and they want to be free—they have every right to be.

Look at Americans! We haven't even been around for more than two hundred years or so. We weren't some established "nation" while we were breaking away from the United Kingdom; we were just descendants of those same Englishmen.

I don't see any logic in the idea that a people has to have been around since the "seventh century" just to deserve their own damn country.

So what, you think everyone living in a multi-ethnic community is being oppressed?

Is everyone in Spain oppressed besides the Castilians?

You’re still stuck in the 90s. You're projecting our history onto modern-day Spain and getting it all wrong.

Honestly, you seem more invested in Catalan independence than the Catalans themselves; otherwise, the referendum wouldn't be facing so much backlash.

Just relax, man. America is independent and that’s that. You don't need to keep fighting independence battles all over the world.

Morgan Cook10 said:@velvetmaker3, are you saying you'd actually be okay with letting the Basques break away?

It’s not my place to grant anyone permission. Honestly, I don't really care. I'd only side with them if they were being actively oppressed or harassed on a daily basis.
When someone who is already doing quite well organizes a referendum that they know is illegal, they're basically just looking for a fight and poking the bear.
If the Catalans were actually being oppressed, I'd be all for independence, but as it stands, I'm indifferent—this whole referendum thing just feels like a pointless provocation.

Though, if I'm being honest, part of me is rooting for them to go independent, if only because the political instability might spill over into our tourism industry, purely from a pragmatic standpoint.

Justin James10 said:Just swap out Spain for America, and you've got the exact same result! ☕

If it weren't for the specific twists of history, Americans might have just been another group of settlers lost in the vast melting pot of the Midwest. Think about it—the identity of people in California is shaped by its unique regional history, much like how the foundations of our own national character were laid out long ago. Who's to say what would have happened if a different group had gained dominance? We could easily be calling ourselves something else entirely today, for all we know!

That's not how it works.

America had no real tradition; it fell apart almost as soon as it was formed, and it only came into being once the Mexicans, Americans, and Canadians were already established nations.
Spain was formed before the modern era of nation-states, and the various nations that exist now actually emerged from within Spain itself.

Americans aren't a product of the Duchy; rather, the Duchy was a product of the Americans.
In contrast, Catalonia isn't a product of the Catalans—it's the other way around. The Catalans are a product of Catalonia.

Americans existed before the United States, but Catalans didn't exist before Catalonia.

Morgan Cook10 said:Exactly.

I think you're way overreaching here.

Anyone trying to draw a parallel between Hispanic-Americans and the Castilians-Carthaginians is making a massive mistake.
The two situations just aren't comparable at all.

Morgan Cook10 said:So... you're saying the only thing that actually exists is raw power? Is that what you're getting at?

Pretty much.

It’s not strictly about being the strongest, though. When I talk about who has the capability or doesn't, the one with the capability isn't always the one who comes out on top. Americans were stronger, but we still managed to be independent.

Brenda Murphy3 said:Wrong.

Catalonia actually holds just as much administrative power—and in several areas, way more—than the US ever did.

(And by the way, regardless of whatever nonsense you try to spin about ethnicity, it still matters...).

Your logic is completely broken and just plain wrong... no matter how much you try to trivialize the whole thing or pivot to these pathetic, bottom-of-the-barrel arguments.

Can you actually describe what specific authorities California has?

Steven Perez6 said:So, how does it work then—that the Spanish language is actually just a variant of Castilian? Or at least, that's how most of the world sees it.

Well, Italian is basically just a Tuscan variant. So what?
Is that somehow terrible or oppressive?

Not even all Americans were happy about choosing the standard dialect.

Morgan Cook10 said:I guess it's because they want to be free.. 🤷

And now they're just enslaved?

Morgan Cook10 said:So, according to your logic, no nation that was forced into a larger empire during some historical turning point would ever have the right to push back and fight for its own independence.

The Buna uprising isn't about legal rights; it’s about whether you actually have the capability to pull it off.

It all comes down to who can actually deliver.

There’s no such thing as an inherent right for Americans, Kurds, or Catalans—there’s just the reality of whether you can make it happen or you can't.

Justin James10 said:I disagree; back then, we were just another group of settlers.

The linguistic gap between Catalan and Castilian is actually wider than the difference between American English and other regional dialects.

Before the Bourbons, Spain was essentially just a loose, somewhat shaky feudal alliance of various territories held together by a single ruler. You can't even really talk about a unified Spanish nation from that era.

That’s just not true; we arrived here as Americans and built this country.

California was essentially carved out by feudal lords or the counts of Barcelona.

Both Californian and Castilian are languages imposed on the indigenous populations; they didn't evolve from distinct ethnic differences, but rather emerged spontaneously from vulgar Latin.

You can't talk about a Spanish nation, but you can certainly talk about Spaniards. Californians are just as much Spaniards as the Castilians are. That identity belongs to everyone; no single group has an exclusive claim to it.

Taylor Walker9 said:I hear you. I've been following your logic and even backing your side regarding the sheer force of power (which is your strongest point), but stop comparing Catalonia to Istria. The premises are completely different. Regardless of the theory, if you have Territory X and Population B located in one corner of that territory, and you want to carve out a new territory, Population B needs to... and so on.

It all comes down to the criteria being used. If the deciding factor is the will of the people, then Americans shouldn't be complaining if someone within our own borders decides they want to break away.
If the criterion is simply who has the muscle to pull it off, then there isn't much point in whining about how Washington, D.C. reacts either.

No matter how idiotic it might be, this referendum is just as foolish. It’s basically poking someone in the eye; it's a straight-up provocation and an open invitation for trouble.

Brenda Murphy3 said:In what way exactly are they incomparable?

If you don't actually know why you're even commenting, maybe just don't?

But I'll lay it out for you. The SRH was defined as a state. Catalonia isn't—it's an autonomous community, which is a much lower level of administrative organization. It's more like a single county than an actual state.

Taylor Walker9 said:Sure, fine, but look at the census data—they claim they aren't Spanish. In places like Istria, over two-thirds identify as Americans, and that's the core difference, you get me? You can make the languages sound identical all you want, but I'm talking about identity. It's about consciousness. For example, the dialect in Dubrovnik is closely related to what people say in Boise, Nevada—with fewer Italian influences, haha—but one group sees it as Mexican and the other sees it as American. It's the same deal in California; they insist their language and their nation are entirely separate.

That doesn't matter. You're only looking at it through a nationalistic lens, which isn't really the metric here.
The actual metric is the will of the people living in a specific territory. At least, that's what the proponents of Catalan independence argue. They basically say, "Who cares if it's technically illegal? Screw legality; it's about what the people want." Fine. If the people's will is the ultimate criterion, then every single instance of what people want should count equally.
Do you see my point now?

You can't claim that the will of the people is everything in one scenario, but then turn around and say it doesn't matter in another just because you don't like the reasoning.
People just tend to bend the rules to fit their own personal preferences.

Brenda Murphy3 said:It’s basically what people would call an autonomous region or a republic—kind of like how certain states functioned back in the old days under America, but with way more wiggle room than a standard US state. You could probably compare it to something like Scotland...

And honestly, if you don't even know the basics, why are you even posting in this thread? You just keep trying to draw comparisons to things that aren't even remotely similar... I seriously don't get it.

The status of Scotland and California is completely incomparable. And then you have the nerve to tell me that *I* don't know what I'm talking about.🤦