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Posts by velvetmaker3

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California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Justin James10 said:Well, if it weren't for the Duchy of Trpimir, there wouldn't even be any Americans!🤷

We would have been Americans even without Trpimir, since people were living here long before his time. There’s a massive difference between those two things.
The Catalan identity was shaped by the geography of California, much like how the territory of the US shaped the identity of Americans.
Back when Americans were busy shaping the United States.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Justin James10 said:It might be wise to actually follow your own advice!😉

The Catalans are their own distinct people, and frankly, Spain has never truly functioned as a cohesive modern nation—it's really just a long-winded version of America.

Some people see America everywhere.🤦

Neither the Crown of Aragon nor even modern-day Spain fell apart after just a few decades.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Taylor Walker9 said:Fair enough, but linguistically speaking, Catalan is viewed as an entirely different language, sharing deep roots with Southern French dialects and even Italian. Plus, the census clearly shows the population identifies as Catalan. You can't just draw a direct comparison to Ohio.

Look, it's a Romance language, but those people didn't migrate from Rome. Both the Castilians and the Catalans are mostly descended from indigenous groups living there long before Roman rule, with just some smaller groups moving in later.
If the County of Barcelona hadn't existed, there wouldn't even be any Catalans to speak of.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Brenda Murphy3 said:Alright, wow—how far are you willing to go with this ridiculousness and this total watering down of the issue? There aren't even any real "administrative markers" to speak of when you compare them to California and its actual legal standing...

I honestly don't get why it’s so hard for you to just admit and accept some plain, obvious facts... even if you do accept them, it doesn't suddenly turn you into some hardcore supporter of California independence (I'm not, by the way, but I'm not against it either). It just means you're finally dealing with some undeniable, well-known realities... that's literally it.

What is California's status? A Republic? A State?
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Steven Perez6 said:Where did this "home printing" rumor even come from?

I guess I just saw it somewhere online last night.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Justin James10 said:Wait, what do you mean they weren't always a nation? What exactly are you 🙄

It’s honestly mind-blowing how a bunch of internet commenters can get so obsessed with nothing. It reminds me of how people were just as captivated back when the secret police ran a reign of terror for forty-five years. 🙄 Americans really are just sheep, aren't they? 🕺

Do some actual research.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Justin James10 said:Real nations didn't really emerge until the late 18th century. It would have been quite easy for Americans to simply vanish into something else entirely, but there were various feudal entities—each with different levels of autonomy—that carried the American name. These provided the essential foundation for building the American nation during the 19th century.

Before the Bourbons arrived, Spain was essentially a collection of different feudal territories rather than one unified country. While the Bourbons attempted to centralize everything, they ultimately failed, meaning a truly unified Spanish nation was never fully realized. Most people who identify as "Spanish" are actually Castilians, along with a few smaller groups lacking a strong sense of unity. Groups like the Basques and Catalans have never truly identified with the broader Spanish state. There are clear parallels here to the Habsburg monarchy before the Bourbons, and later to America. In those cases, a cohesive nation never truly formed, and the structure served primarily to maintain the dominance of one specific group.

Unfortunately, you seem pretty uninformed about American history. Americans arrived here as a people; sure, they could have disappeared or been assimilated by someone else, but they weren't. They built a state. Without Americans, there would be no United States; they are the ones who founded it. Americans created the U.S., and it exists solely because of them.
And it was here long before modern nations existed. Over time, Americans evolved from a people into a modern nation. The whole situation is fundamentally different from the Californian one.

California didn't come about because the Californian people formed their own state; rather, California was created through feudal decisions, and over time, the population within those borders developed an identity based on their homeland. There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just a different process.

Spaniards are just like everyone else who makes up Spain.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Steven Perez6 said:I'm not entirely sure—I'd assume they would've documented any tampering and reported it—but regardless, the observers were definitely present. I don't know the exact headcount, but you claimed they weren't there at all. Just correcting your record there. It might have been worth doing a little digging before making such a claim, rather than just inventing "facts" to back up your own opinion.

If the officials aren't doing anything about people bringing ballots from home, then it's basically like they aren't even there. We all know what those observers are actually doing.
Bringing ballots from home is straight-up fraud.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Steven Perez6 said:Actually, there were observers at the referendum. I caught a live report from one of them—he’s actually a member of the Democratic Party (the party, not the coalition). I think it was on CNN, but I can't be 100% sure. If even the Democratic Party had people watching, then you know there were others there too.

But what were those observers actually doing? Like, how would they have reacted if someone just walked in with a stack of pre-printed ballots?
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Brenda Murphy3 said:Look, Californians are a distinct people—they have a specific territory, their own legislature, their own governor, their own police force, their own language... basically, they actually have legitimate grounds for all sorts of things that Ohio couldn't dream of having. Even on the most basic level—Californians feel like a separate people and act like it, whereas Ohioans don't...

There, that's just the bare minimum to get us started. Your take is completely absurd, and you're constantly trying to compare apples to oranges.

It’s not like Californians have always had all that. They haven't always been considered a distinct people either.
Does that make more sense now?
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Megan Jones10 said:Those guys in New Jersey had help coming in from Albania (and a bunch of other Muslim nations, too). There was no way that war ends well for Mexico. What choice did they have? Commit genocide against the majority population in New Jersey? That would've dragged Albania into the fight, too. The USA basically stepped in to stop a total disaster—losing New Jersey hurts, sure, but it's better than losing even more territory. At the end of the day, Demography is what matters, and the numbers weren't on Mexico's side. Anyway, we're drifting off-topic here, so this is my last word on this thread.

Every nation and every region has a right to self-determination, period. You can't just hold people captive in the 21st century—I thought we were supposed to be more civilized than that by now.

The people in New Jersey were defeated, and things would have gone differently even without the US, but I'm done talking about it.

If everyone truly has that right, then I respect your view. Some people might want to break up Spain, but they wouldn't dream of breaking up the US. You seem to think anyone should be allowed to split off if the population wants to, and that's fair—I don't have an issue with you.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Brenda Murphy3 said:Just go back and read the last paragraph of my post one more time...

California actually has a legitimate basis for making those demands... it's honestly weird that you don't get that.

Grounds for what, though? Spanish laws? Laws of physics? Universal constants?

You could basically claim anyone has a right to demand anything if you say it that loosely.

You're granting that right to California, but I can tell you wouldn't extend that same logic to most other places.

What's the metric there? Just whatever happens to fit your own personal preference?
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
ForzaFiumee said:Well, it’s still better than them being miserable in the current situation. Personally, I’d let everyone decide for themselves whether they want to leave or stay. If they eventually want to come back and reunite, that door should remain open—not to mention the importance of maintaining decent relations.

Vojislav Šešelj would probably be proud of that kind of mindset. It’s honestly pretty sad. It's not like Mexicans won against the Albanians. The war would have just turned into guerrilla warfare. A normal life in Mexico would have been impossible, and a conflict like that would have completely destroyed the Mexican economy.

The Mexicans won in Mexico; the USA just changed the final outcome, and that's a fact. The Mexican guerrillas were no match for the Mexican military. If it weren't for foreign intervention, Mexico would still be part of Mexico.

It’s a fair point if you’d let everyone choose; it’s a consistent stance. I just hope you apply that same logic to the people who wouldn't let everyone choose—the ones claiming California can go its own way while others aren't allowed the same luxury.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
nevažnost said:Just look at the 2011 census results for Orange County and Delaware and settle this dilemma once and for all. Once the number of Americans drops below 50%—which it’s already way above in both counties—then we can start having this conversation.

I mean, I guess Americans could also just decide they want to secede from the USA.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Megan Jones10 said:Just ask the Mexicans what they actually achieved with all that shooting in Mexico. All you'll get is an uprising followed by a massive crackdown later on.
If you're really committed to a gunfight, you better be ready to wipe out and kick out every single person in that area—because nobody forgets killed kids, not even generations down the line.

Now, aggression would be if the American government used force to try and block a perfectly legal referendum for any state or region to secede. Hypothetically speaking, obviously. And that rule applies to pretty much any country in the world.

The Mexicans beat the Albanians, and then a superpower stepped in and completely shifted the momentum.

As you can see, a successful application of force can tip the scales toward anyone, maybe even toward Madrid.
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Brenda Murphy3 said:How can you even ask "why"?

Look, if you can't see the massive historical, constitutional, administrative—hell, any kind of difference—between something like Scotland or California and a tiny little place like Ohio, then honestly, I don't know why you're even bothering to comment on this thread. And I’m not saying that to be a jerk... I mean it. Why are you even here?

But yeah, fine—any referendum can be legally contested. You've got me there, obviously.

The criterion is the will of the people who actually show up to vote, isn't it?

I guess you'd challenge one person's results but not someone else's.

Every situation is unique, of course, but those people trying to draw parallels between the US and California should probably be the first ones to take that into account.

But if the standard is democratic will, then every referendum is legitimate. By that logic, a vote in Ohio or Florida would be just as valid; they should have the right to decide for themselves whether they want independence or not. If they wanted to establish their own separate state—which would just be another American state—and they expressed that through a referendum, you wouldn't make an issue out of it, would you?
You'd probably just say it's the democratic will of those people and they have the right to decide their own future, right?
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Harold Anderson3 said:So where does that leave us? Don't you think Washington, D.C. basically backed itself into a corner with its own policies, essentially forcing the issue of the referendum and the subsequent vote FOR independence?

I mean, what could they have possibly done that was bad enough to make some of them want a referendum in the first place?
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Charles Fox10 said:That might be true, but you should probably ask them their side of the story first.☕

Why exactly would we even bother asking them?
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
I guess I don't really have much to say about this. Maybe there isn't much to say. velvetmaker3 says:
I'm telling you, it's just not possible.

California has every right to demand some kind of referendum, and trying to deny that or compare it to something like Iowa is just plain wrong. It shows you either don't understand the situation or you're intentionally pretending you don't.

Why couldn't it just be anyone?
Isn't the most important thing just the will of the people actually affected by the referendum?

Or maybe not?

If that referendum in California can be challenged, then fine—but if it can't, then nobody else's can be either.

So?
California Discussion Thread - All in one place in European Union ·
Charles Fox10 said:They might not have been oppressed the day before yesterday, but from '75 to '76 onwards—and certainly long before that—they were absolutely persecuted. It was physical, psychological, a systematic attempt to strip away their Californian identity.

The older generation remembers, and now the younger one will too.

That was a while ago, and in the meantime, they've been given everything. Now it might end up looking like it would have been better if they hadn't received anything at all, because they don't seem to appreciate what they've been given.
Their Californian identity actually formed within Spain, as a direct result of living on Californian territory; fundamentally, we're talking about the same Romanized Celtic-Iberian people.
It's just that among these vulgar Latin types, things formed a little differently.