In his killer novel *magic tree*, Sloterdijk lays out this wild theory: the human psyche basically lives in the space between two different flavors of madness—paranoia and depression. People struggling with depression are actually closer to the truth. And I don't just mean "telling it like it is," but more in that deep, spiritual sense, or even in Heidegger's way of looking at things. But there's a catch—reaching that ultimate truth leads to total paralysis, a kind of *wu wei* where you just drift away from the world and become... well, mistyfox812. On the flip side, you've got paranoia, which is tied to having an identity. The stronger your identity, the deeper the paranoia gets. He uses this intense example of a patient in a mental ward who's convinced he’s actually Louis XVI. He’s embraced it so hard it’s practically instinctive... But here’s Sloterdijk's real kicker: it's not just that the guy is crazy for thinking he's Louis XVI; the actual Louis XVI is also crazy because he thinks he's Louis XVI. Every single identity is just a massive delusion of grandeur. It's all madness. So, you're stuck choosing between two kinds of insanity: one drags you into nothingness, and the other keeps you obsessively gripped by who you think you are. Is there maybe some middle ground out there that isn't totally insane?
bluewolf4 said:Rock & Roll died the second the Hells Angels trashed that Rolling Stones gig and stabbed that Pimp crn guy.
I mean, Iggy Pop and The Stooges were way more about visiting punk muzika than Rock & Roll—or maybe just Rock, if you call what's left of it that nowadays. Have you ever actually read Iggy Pop's book, The Stooges and The history of punk Music? They never even put him in the Rock & Roll category.🙂
Man, you seriously have no clue. If there's any album out there that defines rock'n'roll, it’s Funhouse. Forget whatever they write in books, just listen. And it's not just rock, either, because that "roll" part is everything... It's got that vibe, like Bo Diddley.
Emily Torres2 said:Look, personally, I think those old-school Westerns starring John Wayne are total bullshit (maybe they're even a bit gay, like Richard Hernandez13 was saying—thanks for that!). But the real issue is the myth-making and the glorification; it’s all just sugarcoating a brutal reality filled with lawlessness, killings, kidnappings, shootouts, and just general chaos.
In those old-school flicks, everyone is just so cool, the lead guy is a genuine hero rather than a killer, and the Wild West looks totally inviting...
That’s why I think "anti-Western" is such a perfect term—it's everything else. It’s the complete opposite, a rejection of those rose-colored glasses. It’s raw reality, misery, and grit (which, let's be honest, isn't exactly "fun" when you're talking about murder, land theft, or massacres). In an anti-Western like Unforgiven or my favorite, McCabe & Mrs., the harsh truth actually defines the era, the conditions, and the characters. You might love them or hate them, but you see them as actual humans, stripped of the masks and the glory.
Richard Hernandez13, now that I think about it, considering how many dictators throughout history have been obsessed with Westerns, there’s probably a ton of homoeroticism in there too—all that dominance, the constant gun/penis associations, the fascination with weapons, killing, and seizing territory.
Man, sounds like you haven't really seen enough of them. Seriously, go watch The Searchers on DVD. Dude, what a movie. Howard Hawks—who made a bunch of films with Wayne before that (including Rio Bravo, obviously)—once joked that he had no idea the guy could actually act!
What’s the consensus on Troy? Is it actually worth the hype? I just really hope it isn't one of those typical Hollywood situations where they completely ignore history...
That movie is a classic, but honestly, it’s been way too long since I watched it, so my memory is a little fuzzy. Personally, I’m much more of a fan of the term "post-western" over calling things "anti-western." To me, the whole vibe is cooler when they take certain parts of the myth and play with them without being totally bound by the rules of a "real" western.
Pandora said:If you ever found yourself totally deluded—just living in some massive fantasy—and then suddenly snapped out of it and realized how wrong you were... well, at that exact moment, it has to become clear *why* you were lost in that dream and why you were clinging to it so hard. The reasons and the logic behind the illusion reveal themselves right when the illusion breaks. It really just comes down to us believing in what we WANT and DESIRE, rather than what’s actually real. Why we want what we want? That's a question everyone’s gotta answer for themselves. One thing is for sure... choosing an illusion (that sense of separation) is our own call. We throw ourselves into it. And since... I mean, come on... it's an illusion after all, it has to end eventually... so death is a pretty fair price to pay for it. Finality in this whole mess acts like a balm for the wound; it's a decent way out of an uncomfortable situation built on lies... But hey, you gotta remember that no woman gives birth just because she feels like it; she does it when she absolutely has to...😉 For me personally... the point isn't just realizing the illusion was fake. It's about realizing love and wholeness are the only truths that are truly complete and perfect (pure joy)... and isn't that what we're all searching for anyway? The message from the author and kvaka22 is basically this... illusions are born and kept alive by a lack of love. In other words, that void where love should be creates this warped, broken version of reality, which inevitably leads to nothing but pain and suffering. So, loving... that's the only way to see the truth that brings bliss... yippeeeeeee....🙂
Yeah, totally... But I was thinking more about the very beginning of it all, that whole 'fall from paradise' vibe. It kind of feels like if consciousness starts off as one single thing, and there's nothing else around, it's not really clear what would even trigger it to move or do anything in the first place.
Man, I was just sitting here thinking about the exact moment rock 'n' roll died. Back when I was younger, things were simple. You knew what real rock was. The gold standard was Iggy Pop, *Funhouse* was the absolute peak, and "I Wanna Be Your Dog" was the anthem... I mean, seriously... The total opposite was this fake "rock" crap—just garbage dressed up in leather jackets because that’s what sold back then. The biggest fraud of them all was Bregović. His dumbest track was that whole "come on girls, come on boys, students, kids, cops..." nonsense. But hey, it served its purpose—it showed you exactly how low the bar had fallen. That Bregović guy. And then... well, even if you want to look at the good side of history, it feels like that massive cultural collapse happened right around '92. But I didn't really feel the impact until maybe '96 or '97. So there I am, listening, and I just can't believe my ears. It’s like hearing Iggy Pop sing "come on girls, come on boys..." It’s in English, obviously, but the vibe is just as mindless. You try to laugh it off, you try to tell yourself it's just some stupid joke... but you can't. The world felt broken. Honestly, I don't think I've been able to sit through a real rock album since then. Did anyone else experience that kind of trauma? How do you even recover from that? Because every time I think about checking in on the scene—if rock even exists anymore—that horrible memory just hits me. I can't do it. Please, help a guy out. I actually want to go see Pixies in concert, but I'm terrified. What if they start singing some cheesy, commercialized garbage too?
WeM said:Look, we get it! Seriously, we all know how American prisons are compared to what they were like back in that atheist empire era!
I mean, we totally realize how communism basically perfected "tolerance" based on its own weird way of thinking and perceiving things!
It's like... applied philosophy or whatever!
Totally. Communism functioned just like some kind of atheist religion—you know, with its priests, rituals, holidays, and all that stuff. It’s similar to how people view Confucianism or Buddhism as religions even though there isn't a God involved.
But then you hit that wall where true philosophical doubt—like what Descartes talked about—inevitably makes you lose your bearings. Because, honestly, philosophizing means letting go of every single crutch and questioning everything. Descartes suggested this idea of a "provisional morality," kind of like a temporary code to live by while you're in that doubting phase, until you finally find a solid foundation to hold onto—one you actually realize is somewhat arbitrary. I feel like a lot of smart "religious" folks take this exact stance: since it's impossible for everyone to arrive at morality through pure logic, they figure it's better to just pick an arbitrary religious moral than to have no moral compass at all.
Rachel Bishop said:There’s no such thing as "other" consciousness vs. "my own"... there is ONLY ONE CONSCIOUSNESS. Like, you can't prove through experience or anything else that multiple consciousnesses exist—all you see are just more conscious "people." Which basically means that one single consciousness is everywhere at once, even if we don't notice it or realize it...
That’s a beautiful way to put it. But I still can't get past the whole "individuation problem": if that's true, why do we feel so incredibly separate from everything else? What’s the point of this illusion (assuming you're right and it really is just an illusion)? Why were we tossed into this mess, stuck in this isolation? If the only goal is to eventually wake up and realize it was all fake... honestly, that feels kind of pointless.
boldeagle3 said:On-topic: personally, I was way better off financially back in the nineties, but the social scene just went totally to hell.👎 So yeah, let's just stick to the fact that things were better for my wallet, and we'll keep jamming to the New Wave and reminiscing (or learning about it, since some people are way too young to remember) because that music hits right for us, so JUST LEAVE US ALONE.😢 🙂
Hey boldeagle3, how is your memory of being flush with cash considered "on topic" when you're basically tossing me straight into deep Politics? Honestly, I’m out. You can get nostalgic about anything—even shortages or waiting in line for laundry detergent. Besides, a few years ago we had all those movies fueled by pure nostalgia. It’s wild, but clearly, it’s just totally irrational. Sorry guys, I'm heading back to the past!
Kevin Wood22 said:but what about the richness of the music, the concepts, the visual arts (like that square art style), comics, the whole New Wave vibe... wasn't that actual spiritual wealth?
Credit security? Like, what part of this don't you get? We’re drowning in debt and loans right now, and look at us—zero stability, zero standard of living, zero prosperity. There’s no such thing as a country without credit. It's all about development, and back in the '80s, we were actually ahead of the curve compared to everyone else. Now? We're lagging behind even the old Soviet satellites.
The '90s... honestly, better if they had never happened.
What else do you need me to explain? 👎
So, Bowie was on TV saying people come up to him like, "Man, we really miss having stuff like that in Washington, D.C." And he just hits them with, "Well, it didn't exist back then either until we built it." Basically, he's saying: go out and make it happen.
We're stuck in the gutter now because we basically tore each other apart. And why? Because in the '80s, nobody actually solved anything; they just swept everything under the rug. So when the pressure finally built up, everything just exploded.
Here's my point: that whole New Wave movement was a direct reaction to how mindless society was back then. It was a massive "NO" to that era. So, it feels totally backwards to use the New Wave as an argument IN FAVOR of that society. It's like taking The Village Voice from the '90s as proof that Ronald Reagan was doing a great job—just because some great journalism came out during his time doesn't mean he gets the credit for it. To me, that logic is just broken.
Paul Campbell3 said:...I don't have any other agenda here besides trying to offer a different perspective on the whole thing. It just seems like everyone who's actually used drugs treats their experiences like this huge, unrepeatable thing compared to "normal" people who haven't gone through it (maybe I misread you, but that’s honestly the vibe I get from your posts on this thread).
But seriously, help me out here—can you explain one thing to me? Why does every single user defend their experiences with such insane intensity? What's even the point of all that? ...
Man, it's really not like that. Look, I was pretty clear about what I meant—and honestly, most of your argument falls apart there—I said it was helpful because I was being way too intense back then, and it helped me chill out a bit. So, drugs aren't some necessity for everyone. They were just for idiots like me.
Kevin Wood22 said:Watched Happy Child yesterday, and man... I was feeling it. Pure nostalgia, just pure love in every single frame. It’s the best—okay, maybe not the music or those goofy kid faces (seeing little Jack with that ridiculous afro under his bangs, lol)—but seriously, the best part is imagining Mom reading George’s old school essay back to him, all soft and warm, not being cheesy but still hitting you right in the feels... honestly made me want to cry. Those were such damn good years. We had amazing people around us, great vibes, even if the country was broke—it was a time of spiritual wealth, safety, jobs, and actually having a place to live. But look at us now? It kind of messed me up seeing all the exiles who managed to get out (to places where they don't need sleeping pills), that nostalgic Miller pointing over the skyscrapers of New York City like, "Yeah, somewhere out there is the Washington, D.C. that's currently asleep," or the struggling, gritty reality of David Bowie, and the bloated, corporate Jack of today... life, c'est la vie, I guess—but also, it's just unfair.
What "spiritual wealth" are you even talking about? Seriously? Spiritual wealth isn't about the era, it's about the people. And what "safety"? The whole damn country was living off credit, and then a few years later we realized we were in debt up to our necks. Then we all started fighting. That's like going out into a blizzard for a few months and then saying, "Hey, it felt great during those few months," after you end up in jail because of it. I mean, Jack is a perfect example: the story just skips right over the nineties like they never happened. It jumps straight from the eighties to our Year Zero. What happened in between?
Paul Campbell3 said:...but I've never actually used weed to expand my spiritual experiences....
Well, me neither. Honestly, I just wanted to have a good time. You know? Like... But then it just hit me—there’s this whole thing called "spiritual experience." So, I started noticing it even when I was totally sober. The thing is, I was just so closed off to all that stuff, and the drugs basically smashed through my "glitchy" ego. What I mean is, if I hadn't been so rigid back then, I probably wouldn't have needed any substances to realize these things.
nimblecobra79 said:I popped one little candy once and suddenly I could see people for who they actually were right away, like, instant clarity, plus my hearing was absolutely insane😁
but, uh, yeah... drugs.👎
Just like anything else, getting hooked is a total nightmare. But in this place? The danger hits different.
Man, I totally saw through everything when I was on ex. Before that, just rolling on weed... there wasn't even much to realize, you know? And after that, there’s no point lying to yourself about weed either. Then there's the whole thing where you shouldn't be mixing drugs while you're tripping. And... yeah. That's it. It's been a long, long time since then.
Blackadder said:That part where the doctor tells the main guy exactly what to do if his mother's heart stops. 😂 (Seriously though, such a heavy topic, but that scene is freaking hilarious.)
Just finished watching it. Seriously great movie, and that one scene... absolute gold.
So, he’s got that one book about his time in the camps, *Man's Search for Meaning*. A buddy lent it to me, and honestly, it sat on my shelf for months because I was bracing myself for something super depressing. But man, I actually loved it. I think his whole take on finding "purpose" really hits home.