Posts by Michael Gonzalez77

Daniel Castillo11 said:I suspect Gautama Buddha might have a different take on that.

And who even is this guy? I haven't seen him around here before... 🤔

Anyway, everyone is free to disagree with me. I'm certainly not hoarding the right to have an opinion all to myself. 😁

🙂

Thomas Nelson25 said:You know why I dig that philosophy—it’s because they claim there's no soul and nothing lasts. Honestly, isn't that like the ultimate peak of human insight?

Maybe it's the Tibetan thing—they've got extra steps involved and it gets super complicated... lots of stuff about death and reincarnation on demand...

But there is Consciousness. 🙂 Some might say you're splitting hairs, especially regarding that whole "nothing lasts" idea (except for the thing that possesses permanence as its very nature—you know, the thing that remains regardless of how fleeting everything else is). Because if "Nothingness" actually existed as a thing, well, now that would be something. Just kidding. 😁

Life’s unity is an absolute fact.

I’m with bluemason3 on this—trying to experience wholeness as a central concept is just as much of a mental construct as experiencing any single part of it. It all happens within the human mind, which acts like a black hole. Throughout our lives, we use our five senses to suck in impressions that don't actually reflect the world as it truly is. Instead, they're just reflections of impulses being fed through a "dial-up input," processed by a very limited intellectual engine.

Even within the scientific method, you run into this. You can dive deep into the structure of a phenomenon or take a high-level view of a larger system, but the entire operation still takes place inside that tiny human box of intellectual reasoning. We're working strictly off external factors—the surface level of a phenomenon (though even a blind chicken might peck at a grain of corn once in a while). Usually, the goal is just to exploit these things for narrow technological purposes rather than understanding the deeper connection between nature and humanity. People should be trying to align themselves with nature and understand their true essence, instead of submitting to distorted psychological worlds of fantasy and imagination where individuality is just an illusion—all while having zero actual grasp of who they are or why they do what they do.

The reality is that people think they’re setting their own life goals and finding their own meaning. In truth, some of their random ideas actually support the nature they are made of, while others completely block it.

You can't defeat life for what it fundamentally is. But you can certainly joke around with it as long as biological processes continue in whatever form they take—physical or otherwise. And even that isn't the end of the line; it keeps going until, say, a nuclear meltdown wipes us out.

🕺

steelmarlin77 said:Enlightenment is basically realizing there’s absolutely nothing to it, yet somehow, it’s everything. Once you wrap your head around that, we’re all enlightened, so why am I even still typing? Let's just lock this thread. Honestly, why do some people even feel the need for God? People are inherently unfair, aren't they? They spend their whole lives bickering over trivial nonsense—who’s got more, who’s got less, who’s winning at life. It feels like people cling to the idea of God because they want someone to step in and actually distribute things fairly, and apparently, that’s a job only God can handle. But what happens when two different versions of God clash? Which one is supposedly the "fair" one? It’s a total mess. If I’m out here doing something in the name of my God, and someone else jumps in with their own version of God to tell me I’m being unjust, isn't that really just both of us acting on our own whims? Who the hell knows what God is actually thinking, assuming there even is a God? Why bother making everything so damn complicated if the world is fundamentally broken? Maybe that’s just how it works—maybe the injustice itself is part of the design.

It doesn't have to be that way, but that's just the hand we've been dealt right now.

Sandra Morales said:👍
In a sense, you make a fair point. I am uncertain, however, if you are speaking from personal experience regarding having unlimited wealth, or if this is simply your general philosophy.

If one reflects deeply enough, a wealthy individual eventually realizes that their capital holds little intrinsic value. We see this today with various Hollywood stars and pop artists who, despite being extremely well-off, suffer from depression. While not all depression stems from a lack of spiritual life, I believe many of these individuals realize there is "something more" to existence through such struggles. Of course, I am generalizing here, and that is not always the case.

What such a person typically does—and finds easiest—is pay a "guru" to teach them the secrets of life. Some might claim they wouldn't, but let's be realistic: if I had as much money as I wanted, I would certainly find myself attending the most expensive spiritual seminars available.
I am not questioning their desire for knowledge; rather, I suspect that someone accustomed to handing out money still retains the habit of "paying for a service" instead of "working for a service."
To my mind, that is a flawed concept because money truly possesses no value, especially to them.

If we simplify the idea: suppose this wealthy person loves driving their Lamborghini at 150 mph on a specific highway. That is a passion. They also enjoy the money they possess.

But if you asked them, would they rather give up a portion of their wealth or the experience of driving that Lamborghini at 140 mph? Personally, I believe they would surrender the cash before they would ever give up the thrill of the drive.

Similarly, I believe that to receive something, one must first give. If you give away something that holds no personal value—money, for instance, which you view as trivial because you have plenty—then the act won't feel significant since you didn't work hard for it. However, if someone sacrifices something precious—an experience, in this case—they will perceive its value as much greater because they gave more of themselves. Eventually, they may realize that the value of driving a Lamborghini isn't inherently better or worse than riding a bicycle, even if a Lamborghini is certainly not a bicycle.
I hope this clarifies my perspective to some extent.

I had never viewed religion from that angle, but it makes sense. Thank you for sharing that. 🙂
Living.

🙂 I’m not wealthy, I’ve never been wealthy, and honestly, I have no desire to be. Chasing massive wealth can actually be a trap that stunts your spiritual growth. In this world, being rich usually means you're profiting at someone else's expense. We don't live in a world of infinite resources, so trying to hoard everything for yourself is just selfish and completely disconnected from reality.

There are a few people out there who ended up wealthy, but let’s be real—they didn't get there because they were hungry for success. It wasn't about ambition or grit; it was just pure luck, like hitting the jackpot on a Powerball ticket.

Instead, it’s better to just aim for security, peace of mind, and a little bit of comfort.

Look, what I’m getting at isn't actually about the money itself. Money is just money—it only carries weight because we collectively decide to give it that much importance. But unfortunately, for most people, that value is tied into every single aspect of their lives.

I’m talking about how human desire often crashes headfirst into reality. People end up drowning in debt chasing things they don't actually need, and once that credit card bill hits, they just pivot to the next shiny object. Or, they burn themselves out chasing impossible, pipe-dream goals. Even the ultra-wealthy fall into this trap—someone might have $100 million in the bank, but they’re already obsessing over how to hit $200 million. I’m just looking at the broader principle here; you can find examples of this pattern everywhere you look if you know where to peek. Of course, there’s always that group of conscious people driven by pure humanism. They've always been around, and hopefully, we'll see more of them.

Sandra Morales said:👍
In a sense, you make a fair point. I am uncertain, however, if you are speaking from personal experience regarding having unlimited wealth, or if this is simply your general philosophy.

If one reflects deeply enough, a wealthy individual eventually realizes that their capital holds little intrinsic value. We see this today with various Hollywood stars and pop artists who, despite being extremely well-off, suffer from depression. While not all depression stems from a lack of spiritual life, I believe many of these individuals realize there is "something more" to existence through such struggles. Of course, I am generalizing here, and that is not always the case.

What such a person typically does—and finds easiest—is pay a "guru" to teach them the secrets of life. Some might claim they wouldn't, but let's be realistic: if I had as much money as I wanted, I would certainly find myself attending the most expensive spiritual seminars available.
I am not questioning their desire for knowledge; rather, I suspect that someone accustomed to handing out money still retains the habit of "paying for a service" instead of "working for a service."
To my mind, that is a flawed concept because money truly possesses no value, especially to them.

If we simplify the idea: suppose this wealthy person loves driving their Lamborghini at 150 mph on a specific highway. That is a passion. They also enjoy the money they possess.

But if you asked them, would they rather give up a portion of their wealth or the experience of driving that Lamborghini at 140 mph? Personally, I believe they would surrender the cash before they would ever give up the thrill of the drive.

Similarly, I believe that to receive something, one must first give. If you give away something that holds no personal value—money, for instance, which you view as trivial because you have plenty—then the act won't feel significant since you didn't work hard for it. However, if someone sacrifices something precious—an experience, in this case—they will perceive its value as much greater because they gave more of themselves. Eventually, they may realize that the value of driving a Lamborghini isn't inherently better or worse than riding a bicycle, even if a Lamborghini is certainly not a bicycle.
I hope this clarifies my perspective to some extent.

I had never viewed religion from that angle, but it makes sense. Thank you for sharing that. 🙂
Living.

I don't think you're generalizing.

In about 99% of cases, when people actually experience true spiritual growth and personal evolution, they don't just magically find peace. It usually starts by slamming headfirst into every external wall in their path. They have to hit those limits hard enough to break through. Once someone is truly broken down like that, they’re left with no choice but to look inward—unless, of course, they're a fool. And honestly? There's no helping a fool.

Look, there are plenty of people who dive into these "alternative" trends just because they're bored, chasing a fad, or looking for some quick hit of self-validation. For them, it’s just a phase—they obsess over it for a minute and then move on to the next shiny object. But let's be real: that's a world away from the actual spirituality that sits quietly deep within all of us.

Sandra Morales said:👍
In a sense, you make a fair point. I am uncertain, however, if you are speaking from personal experience regarding having unlimited wealth, or if this is simply your general philosophy.

If one reflects deeply enough, a wealthy individual eventually realizes that their capital holds little intrinsic value. We see this today with various Hollywood stars and pop artists who, despite being extremely well-off, suffer from depression. While not all depression stems from a lack of spiritual life, I believe many of these individuals realize there is "something more" to existence through such struggles. Of course, I am generalizing here, and that is not always the case.

What such a person typically does—and finds easiest—is pay a "guru" to teach them the secrets of life. Some might claim they wouldn't, but let's be realistic: if I had as much money as I wanted, I would certainly find myself attending the most expensive spiritual seminars available.
I am not questioning their desire for knowledge; rather, I suspect that someone accustomed to handing out money still retains the habit of "paying for a service" instead of "working for a service."
To my mind, that is a flawed concept because money truly possesses no value, especially to them.

If we simplify the idea: suppose this wealthy person loves driving their Lamborghini at 150 mph on a specific highway. That is a passion. They also enjoy the money they possess.

But if you asked them, would they rather give up a portion of their wealth or the experience of driving that Lamborghini at 140 mph? Personally, I believe they would surrender the cash before they would ever give up the thrill of the drive.

Similarly, I believe that to receive something, one must first give. If you give away something that holds no personal value—money, for instance, which you view as trivial because you have plenty—then the act won't feel significant since you didn't work hard for it. However, if someone sacrifices something precious—an experience, in this case—they will perceive its value as much greater because they gave more of themselves. Eventually, they may realize that the value of driving a Lamborghini isn't inherently better or worse than riding a bicycle, even if a Lamborghini is certainly not a bicycle.
I hope this clarifies my perspective to some extent.

I had never viewed religion from that angle, but it makes sense. Thank you for sharing that. 🙂
Living.

You can't buy spirituality. Even though you pay for access in all sorts of places, you aren't actually buying anyone's soul or enlightenment.🙂

Everyone has to do the heavy lifting themselves, regardless of what they do or who they hang out with. Even if you're standing right next to a Perfect Teacher and have every resource imaginable to grow, you still have to put in the work and cultivate the openness required to actually receive that help.

Books, seminars, courses, lectures—these are usually run by people who haven't reached enlightenment. In rare cases, they might be highly evolved individuals who can be incredibly helpful to those ready to listen. It's even rarer to encounter truly enlightened beings. Most people struggle to recognize them because they're too focused on the surface level, trying to fix their immediate problems rather than letting go of them entirely. All of this should serve as inspiration to deepen one's spiritual orientation through practical experience; if you're just collecting theories like trivia, then none of it really matters.

Sandra Morales said:The issue is that a wealthy individual lacks any real drive for more, since they can simply acquire whatever they desire. Eventually, they might realize money isn't everything, though they'd likely just spend it all again to find out. To them, money becomes meaningless once you have an abundance. That is why you have to force such a person to sacrifice something to gain 🙂. Some people actually exploit this; instead of asking for cash, they demand something far more Divine from him.

I can't say I agree with that.

Whether you’re wealthy or struggling, everyone is driven by that same restless hunger. It’s a universal constant. Kids and young adults are the perfect example—they’re always reaching for something more than what they currently have, ranging from tiny trifles to massive ambitions. To someone sitting on a mountain of cash, the "big dreams" of an average person might seem trivial or even meaningless, but that's no consolation. Even those at the top are constantly chasing the next thing, forever looking for something more.

If we could just solve that one single issue—this relentless hunger for power and wealth—humanity would be in a vastly better place. It really comes down to a fundamental flaw in how we think. Honestly, I believe a broken mindset is the root cause of pretty much every problem and all the evil we see today. When people let that distorted thinking drive them, the fallout is nothing short of catastrophic.

The average person struggles with a skewed mindset regardless of their circumstances. When they’re doing well, they let their greed and endless desires run wild. When they’re facing an existential crisis, they might become more practical and focus on survival, but the negative thoughts still pile up either way. If you look at how human civilizations have actually progressed, history shows that growth usually happens when people aren't constantly starving. There’s an old saying that goes, "Religion isn't for empty stomachs." Essentially, having enough material stability provides the foundation needed for spiritual growth. Unfortunately, most people stay trapped by their worldly cravings, obsessing over whether their material wants will be met or not. That constant cycle of desire and disappointment? That’s the root of all suffering.

Back during the socialist era in America, we didn't actually solve our core issue: our flawed mindset. Even though most people were—let’s call it what it was—perfectly fine with their material status in many cases, the underlying rot remained. They still dealt with systemic negative thinking and chronic stress. Think of it this way: that stress is purely psychological. On its own, it might not seem like a massive hurdle to clear, but because people live in ignorance, they carry these patterns for thousands of years. It becomes an ingrained part of the human condition that most people don't even realize they have until it completely wrecks their nervous system, leading to debilitating chronic illnesses. If you aren't willing to throw yourself headfirst into fixing those internal patterns—if you aren't absolutely relentless about resolving that conflict within yourself—you simply cannot achieve spiritual growth.

The way most people think every single day is fundamentally broken. This constant loop of negative thoughts and unnecessary stress is arguably the root cause of almost all our societal issues. It wears down your nervous system, which essentially sabotages every part of your life. You end up stuck, limited, and completely unable to tap into the massive potential sitting right inside you—potential that’s far greater than anyone could ever imagine.

Wealthy people are just as selfish as everyone else, mostly because they're operating from a place of ignorance. If they actually understood the bigger picture, they’d be working to build a world that prioritizes the common good—but that would require them to confront their own greed. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule, but those people are few and far between.

The religious paradox is staring us right in the face. Look at Vatican City today—as the heart of the Christian organization, it stands as a massive monument to wealth and the pursuit of Mammon. It’s the polar opposite of the core essence of Christ's teachings regarding serving humanity. Meanwhile, we have millions of people around the globe dying from hunger every single year, most of them just children. On the flip side, you look at Islam, which for centuries has been intensely focused on the "desire for power." Sure, those two things are always intertwined, but in one case, greed takes center stage, while in the other, control is the main driver. In many Islamic nations, religious organizations hold the reins of government, but even where they don't currently rule, they remain an incredibly powerful opposition. They have massive followings and are essentially just waiting for the right moment to topple the current leadership through violence and everything else that comes with it.

Jeremy Scott said:They won't. But they can spark an interest in spirituality.

Enlightenment isn't happening if you aren't interested in the first place.

A "mentor" is someone who can show you the right "keys," though finding the real ones is a different story entirely.

You don't need to go looking.

The moment you're actually ready for a spiritual upgrade, a teacher always seems to show up out of nowhere. 😉

Actually, that might not even be true. Throughout history, tons of people have reached enlightenment without ever even hearing the word. Enlightenment isn't about overthinking what spirituality is; it’s beyond thought. It all comes down to whether someone has created the right natural conditions for it to happen. If those conditions exist, the process is just natural—it happens on its own.

Jeremy Scott said:They won't. But they can spark an interest in spirituality.

Enlightenment isn't happening if you aren't interested in the first place.

A "mentor" is someone who can show you the right "keys," though finding the real ones is a different story entirely.

You don't need to go looking.

The moment you're actually ready for a spiritual upgrade, a teacher always seems to show up out of nowhere. 😉

That's exactly my point.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

You missed my point entirely.
I'm saying that whether Peter is spiritually advanced or Zika is just a total fraud doesn't change the fact that my own spiritual growth is my responsibility. It doesn't depend on anyone else—my development is my duty. I am the one who has to evolve, while Peter and Zika have their own paths to walk. You can't compare my progress to anyone else's; it’s simply incomparable.
The fact that there are scammers out there pretending to be gurus or whatever—how does that affect my growth? It doesn't. At all.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

Everyone is the master of their own destiny and their own growth. Everyone has to strip away the things inside them that hold them back, primarily so they can experience what it truly means to be human as God's creation. That has nothing to do with whether someone believes in a specific doctrine or not; it's about how they think and how they act.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

I know exactly what motivates people and how they think, too. But I wasn't talking about making everyone think the same way. I was saying that Peter and Zika don't need to share the same thoughts, but they can both think in a way where they aren't filled with negativity or pitted against each other—especially not over trivialities or cultural, racial, or religious differences. To me, that's the mark of a more developed consciousness.

Psychology can try to tackle just about anything, but honestly, it rarely hits the mark when it's spread too thin. At the end of the day, it lacks the fundamental strength needed to actually fix the root cause of a problem.

The issue isn't the truth in the Bible itself. The real problem lies in those specific sections that were modified over centuries through various papal councils. There was even a chapter regarding reincarnation that used to be part of the Bible once upon a time. If we’re going to talk about Truth, we absolutely have to clarify things like cause and effect. We also need to address the concept of eternal hell. It makes no sense to claim God is Love while simultaneously suggesting He would take His most beloved followers and toss them into eternal torment. Living your life in constant fear of death or being persecuted in hell—or living in fear of God himself—is a total misconception. Even the whole concept of Satan is problematic; it all seems designed to act in direct opposition to actually living a Christ-like life.

Look, the Bible alone isn't enough for everyone to grasp and embrace the Truth about themselves. If it were, we’d be looking at literal armies of everyday saints. But here’s the thing: Truth sets you free. And when that happens, you finally become the kind of person capable of walking the path of Jesus. A person truly following Christ doesn't carry around envy, jealousy, hatred, or fear. They aren't weighed down by sadness or pity. They’re tolerant and free from those constant, systematic negative thoughts. Once you have that mental clarity—once you're no longer a slave to your emotions—you start seeing things exactly as they are. You stop focusing on what divides us and start seeing the common thread in human nature. That’s when the divisions finally disappear.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

Go ahead and argue that with those New Yorkers.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

When I use the word "saint," maybe I’m exaggerating a bit—but what I really mean is someone who truly deserves the title as one of God’s creations. I'm talking about a person who lives without those constant, systematic negative thoughts. Someone free from hatred, intolerance, or any kind of resentment toward people who are different. Imagine someone who isn't weighed down by fear, sadness, or pity. They have this steady, composed disposition; they aren't high-strung or anxious. They display a version of "normalcy" that doesn't align with the standard societal definition. See, most people you meet in a crowd deal with these internal struggles or neuroses, and in extreme cases, society even labels them as "deviant." But there's a higher level of peace that goes beyond that.

Real spirituality is measured by results. It isn’t about how many books you’ve read or what specific doctrine you follow; it’s about how you actually impact the people around you. Take the Bible or Christianity—it works the same way with Hinduism or Buddhism. They’ve all produced massive numbers of truly spiritual people because they focus on that core influence.
Look, I wasn't talking about religion. What I mean is that everyone has to find their own way to live out their spiritual life. Personal spiritual growth is an individual journey—it doesn't depend on the Bible, the Vedas, or any specific doctrine. Sure, if someone is truly dedicated to their faith and actually follows those core principles of growth, they can certainly evolve spiritually. But for most people? Organized religion usually just ends up being a cage.

Your interpretation of the Bible is personal to you. If there were a universal consensus on how to read it, we wouldn't be looking at 40,000 different sects today. I still believe that what Jesus spoke was the Holy Word, but over the last 1,700 years, so much dust has been kicked up around the meaning that it's hard to see clearly. Honestly, despite what people claim, the Bible as it exists today isn't providing the roadmap humanity needs to build a truly healthy society. It just isn't happening, much as we might want it to.

That doesn’t mean the core values found in all the world's major religions are exclusive to the Bible. Real values are part of our basic human nature; they just need to be cultivated. They don't necessarily have to stem from organized belief systems, but rather from a practical spirituality—which is exactly what Hrostos points toward. It's about substance over empty rituals or sterile ceremonies.

Spirituality is a personal journey. If you believe Christianity is the only way, then by all means, follow that path. I don't think it’s an easy road, far from it. But here is the reality: if the Bible had remained an uncorrupted, original source of truth over the last 2,000 years, this planet would be a much better place for growth. People might actually live up to the title of "humanity." But that isn't the case—just like it hasn't been with other doctrines that emerged from ancient spiritual traditions.

The idea that "God and I are one" might only be something a person can claim when they feel God's presence personally right here on Earth. You see this kind of sentiment all over the East, and there's really no doubt about it.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

Look, you completely misunderstood my point from the jump. I’m not trying to tear down Christian values at all. What I was actually saying is that 99% of people who call themselves Christians don't actually live with any spiritual intention. They don't bother with the actual work of being a decent human being—which is what being a true follower is all about. It’s about thinking right, speaking right, and doing right. It’s about genuinely loving your neighbor and loving God in a way that’s selfless and pure, rather than just making everything about yourself.

I don't follow any specific spiritual path or religion. My entire philosophy boils down to one simple doctrine: living out the Truth by sticking to three things—good thoughts, good words, and good deeds.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

I hold myself to high standards. Though, I wouldn't call them "extraordinary"—I’d just say they are basic human standards that most people simply fail to live up to for various reasons.

I’m not out here pointing fingers at anyone else, but I definitely hold myself accountable because there is no room for compromise when it comes to your spiritual life.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

A temple, as a physical structure, is a symbol of man and his divine attributes—the "temple of God." There is absolutely nothing boring about that.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

Look, you gotta get one thing straight first:
No single person can ever be compared to anyone else when we're talking about spiritual stuff.

If that were true, it would mean there aren't any frauds in our neck of the woods (on the spiritual "market").
It would imply that every single snake oil salesman and "esoteric expert" walking these streets is actually legit.
And that human naivety is just some poetic metaphor used to scare little kids.

Everyone builds their own spirituality, so trying to compare people is totally pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world; in the realm of the spirit, it's basically non-existent—it's just wrong.

So you're saying everyone just picks whatever fits their vibe.
Like shopping at a Walmart; grab a bit of this, a little bit of that... toss this out, keep that, ignore the third thing because it doesn't suit me, and maybe tweak or customize the part I actually like.
That's just enlightened, modern, individualistic-modular spirituality / spiritual engineering.
As many people as there are, that's how many different doctrines there are.
😵

The way people think... a person's unique way of thinking... is so incredibly individual that a single method like the Bible isn't enough to cover or solve it, unfortunately.

I couldn't disagree more.
Human thought and behavior are universally known patterns.
People are predictable, measurable, and honestly, pretty easy to manipulate.
We know exactly what motivates people, what keeps them up at night, how they react in certain situations, and all that.
That’s basically what applied psychology does, and it does it successfully.
If you actually take the time to study the Bible, you'll see it addresses and helps people transcend those exact behavioral patterns we're all slaves to.
Claiming you're somehow outside its framework sounds a bit like a stretch to me.
I think insisting that there are 7 billion uniquely individualized behaviors just isn't grounded in reality.

...that's not the fault of Hrostov's teachings, which I consider perfection, but rather the fault of the people who have spent centuries watering down the original Teaching and inserting all kinds of blasphemies into the scriptures themselves.

What kind of blasphemies did they add, or what spiritual truths did they strip away?
And who told you that?
Don't give me that nonsense about Jesus studying in India, hanging out with Indian sages and poring over the Vedas... right under the Himalayas. That ridiculous attempt to discredit Christianity is more suited for a late-night Discovery Channel show than a serious, open discussion.

On the other hand, I know that among most of those who call themselves spiritual representatives, there's a group that truly received their calling from within, and getting quality inspiration from them is possible, especially for people who are receptive (like you), but for the rest, it's just not like that. This isn't a judgment, it's just a fact; if it weren't true, the Catholic Church, the Episcopal Church, or any others, would have produced actual spiritual people by now (and they've had centuries to do it)—people who are open, well-meaning, sincere, virtuous in every sense without negative thoughts, people who are happy and full of understanding even for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity alone would have created nearly a billion saints.

Spiritual authenticity isn't some numbers game based on how many saints exist.
That’s just not how things work. This world we’re living in is this massive, complex, mind-bending mess—it’s overwhelming, if you ask me. As conscious beings, we’re being hit by all these influences that you can't just brush off or pretend don't matter. Your linear way of looking at it? It's just a lazy simplification. The spiritual struggle is heavy stuff; it demands way more than just having good intentions or checking a box.
Christianity didn't spit out a billion saints, but it did produce thousands of them. Just try honestly living by any of the principles that inspired them, or even just trying to follow their lead, and I guarantee you’ll see some spiritual progress.

Since that’s nowhere near the reality, that's where my opinion comes from. And it’s not about what the church *should* be, just like the idea of a democratic society is one thing, while how it actually plays out in real life is nowhere near hitting that mark.

Btw; what kind of doctrine or spiritual path are you even following... since you're basically devaluing Christian values just because a billion Christians aren't considered "holy"?
I'm genuinely curious.

If you view the church as the pillar of spiritual growth in this world and the people coming to it as top-tier individuals, that’s just your perspective. All I see is that the things I know about are way below that level.

Clearly, you've got high standards.
But hey, keep in mind that old saying: "The higher they fly, the harder they fall."
And I'm not talking about the intensity of your spiritual effort or your goals here, but rather the position you're judging from.

...like I said again, it's not about the idea of churches or temples or whatever, but because an individual's problems are way too complicated for a sermon in a church to just flip someone's mindset and free them from the patterns that cause negative thoughts, stress, and even chronic illnesses tied to how they think.

I get it, I get it... church seems like a boring place at first glance.
But look, the whole point of spiritual growth isn't about satisfying our natural craving for a little "high" or a trip (you know, that feeling where you want something to flash in your brain or give you some weird mental buzz), it's about how deeply it changes you as a person, connects you with your own conscience, and opens you up to the people around you.

I don't doubt there are noble people everywhere, whether in church ranks or outside of them, in Christianity or among those called atheists, in Buddhism or Hinduism, among scientists or just regular everyday folks.

I don't doubt it either.

I hope I've explained my conclusion clearly enough.

Yeah, thanks for getting back to me.

If you walk into a church in some town where people actually show up without their heavy psychological baggage—people who are just thriving in Life regardless of how much money they have, without any of that judgment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or those intense lustful urges, or even the constant ache and suffering—well, I pray to God we see more people like that in every church, steeple, temple, and mosque on this planet. Because honestly, that’s exactly how it should be.

From your mouth to God's ears; "...thy kingdom come..."
In this weird, mysterious world we're all stuck in, it ain't always true that all that glitters is gold, and it definitely isn't true that everything that stinks is complete garbage. You need "X-ray vision"—or just an open heart, I guess—to really see the face and the backside of what serves us and what just rubs us the wrong way. It's all about knowing when to peek at one thing and run for the hills from the other; "...thy will be done..."

I couldn't agree more. I just wonder why people don't actually do that. Honestly, I see it even with those who show up to church or a mosque every single week. I’m not judging, I’m just observing—most people simply aren't spiritually tuned in. They might claim to be devout, religious, or regular attendees who pray every day, but if they don't actually live it out through their actions, they end up struggling with all sorts of unnecessary pain in their lives.

frozengull2 said:Michael Gonzalez77;

People like you are exactly why organized religion feels so broken. Look, I’m not saying these institutions don't exist, but if there were more people actually *getting* it, the church would be a legitimate solution for most folks walking through those doors. Sadly, that’s just not how it works. And honestly? It’s not even the fault of the churches themselves—it’s the people inside them. It's the crowd showing up but ignoring every basic principle, sticking to nothing but the empty rituals and formalities.

To be totally real with you, I’m lightyears behind most of the people I see at church who actually inspire me.
I mean the actual believers living right here in my neck of the woods.
The level of being filled with the Holy Spirit they have—and everything else that comes in that package, like inner peace, joy, inspiration, seeing the world through spiritual eyes, emotional maturity, strength, humility, loving your neighbor and all that jazz... man, I’d give anything to reach that level myself.

So, what is it about you that makes you feel so much better than them?

I won't even pretend I didn't notice how you basically brag about it through your own posts.

You have to realize one thing right off the bat: you can't compare one person to another when it comes to spiritual growth. Everyone is building their own unique connection with the divine, so trying to measure yourself against someone else is completely pointless. Comparison usually happens in the material world—like comparing cars or salaries—but in the realm of the spirit, it just doesn't make sense. It’s fundamentally misplaced.

Look, I don't see myself as being any better than anyone else. But let's be real—I'm not from Mars. I understand how people interact in society. Sure, you get one kind of connection at church, but that’s just one tiny slice of the world. There are countless other places where you learn how people actually live.
The struggles people face aren't just about the external circumstances—it’s more about how they process them. Honestly, the biggest hurdle isn't usually the situation itself, but that internal loop of negative thinking. It's so deeply personal that even a foundation like the Bible can't act as a one-size-fits-all solution for everyone. Sadly, there isn't just one single way to untangle that kind of mental knot.

If we could have actually pulled it off, we’d all be living as spiritually advanced beings by now, two thousand years down the line. But the problem isn't Hrostov's teaching—I honestly think that's perfection. The issue is the people who spent centuries watering down the original message and injecting all sorts of blasphemy into the sacred texts.

Look, I know that among those who claim to be spiritual leaders, there’s a certain group whose calling comes from deep within. If you’re someone who is truly open to receiving guidance—like you are—you can actually find some high-quality inspiration from them. But for everyone else? It just doesn't work that way. I’m not trying to judge anyone here; I’m just stating a plain fact. If it were different, then the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, and every other major denomination would have managed to produce genuinely enlightened people by now. They’ve had centuries to get it right. We’re talking about people who are truly open, well-meaning, kind, and virtuous in every sense of the word—people without a single negative thought running through their heads, individuals filled with enough joy and empathy to even find understanding for society's worst criminals. If that were the case, Christianity would have practically created a billion saints by now.

That’s just not even close to the reality of the situation, which is exactly why I feel this way. It has nothing to do with what a church should ideally be; it’s more like how we talk about a democratic society—the concept is one thing, but the actual execution is nowhere near halfway to being realized.

If you look at the church as the ultimate pillar of spiritual growth and see the people inside as some kind of moral elite, that’s just your perspective. Personally, I see things differently. From where I stand, what people actually deal with is far more complicated than that. I'm not attacking the idea of churches or temples themselves. It’s just that human problems are incredibly layered and complex. A single sermon isn't going to magically rewire someone's brain or break the cycle of their own thought patterns. Most people are stuck in mental loops that fuel constant stress, negativity, and even chronic physical illnesses—all of which are directly tied to how they think. You can't solve that level of complexity with a one-size-fits-all message.

I truly believe that noble souls exist everywhere you look. You’ll find them within church leadership or out in the world, among those who call themselves Christians or even those who identify as atheists. They are there in Buddhism and Hinduism, found among groundbreaking scientists just as easily as among everyday working people.

I hope I managed to make my point clearly enough regarding my conclusion.

Imagine walking into a church in a city where everyone shows up without their psychological baggage—people who are truly thriving in Life, regardless of their bank accounts. People free from resentment, jealousy, vanity, hatred, envy, or uncontrolled lust; people living without constant pain or anxiety. I pray to God that every church, chapel, temple, and mosque in the world becomes a sanctuary for people like that. That’s exactly how it should be.

Jeremy Scott said:A master sculptor is useless without his chisels.

People need to start with the fundamentals—things like astrology, tarot, or energy work—to build the foundation necessary to receive true spiritual wisdom from God.

I don't buy the idea that astrology, tarot, or bioenergy will reveal your inner secrets; they aren't even designed to point you in that direction. Think of it this way: a true "mentor" is someone who can hand you the right "keys," though finding the real deal is always a gamble. An enlightened mentor on the outside is essentially just an external version of the latent mentor you have to awaken within yourself. Of course, you don't strictly need an outside guide, but trying to navigate the journey solo is a much longer, more uncertain trek.

frozengull2 said:Pacific;

2. Honestly, what does organized religion—especially the Church—have to do with actual spirituality? 😕

When I really start digging into the deeper, more soulful side of theology, man, it triggers this feeling inside me that I can’t even put into words.
Nothing feels too heavy when that happens.
It's like everything around me just suddenly makes sense... this overwhelming sense of purpose and joy that honestly just takes my breath away.
Everything and everyone starts feeling like they belong to me, like my closest kin.
It just happens, totally spontaneous.

I think you feel that way because it’s part of who you are, not because the church itself holds some kind of magical power over you.
If you weren't focused on faith, you'd probably find that same inspiration in plenty of other places—like out in nature, or through something like Sai baba😁 and things like that.

People like you are actually pretty rare in organized religion. I'm not saying they don't exist, but if there were more people like you, the church would actually be what it's supposed to be—a real solution for most people. Unfortunately, that’s not how it works. And it isn't even the fault of the institutions; it's the people within them. Too many people show up and follow the rituals without ever actually living out the core principles.

Jeremy Scott said:The saddest part is watching people happily shell out cash for a night at a bar, yet they balk at spending anything on their own spiritual growth.

We pour money into fleeting distractions while refusing to invest in the things that hold the secrets of eternity.

I get where you're coming from, but there's a massive gray area here. It's hard to judge what's actually high-quality when there are zero industry standards. Without any benchmarks or regulations, everything becomes a matter of opinion.

At the end of the day, spirituality isn't a technical skill you can just download from a lecture or master by skimming a book. Nobody's going to reach enlightenment just because they paid for some fancy Reiki workshop or a rebranding seminar. That said, having a solid guide can definitely point you in the right direction—provided that guide actually knows their stuff. And let’s be real, finding someone legitimate is tough these days when the market is flooded with "experts" who think reading two books makes them a guru. Still, everyone has to start somewhere.

Real spiritual growth is actually quite practical. It’s about staying in sync with your circumstances, your social standing, and your day-to-day reality. Even when money is involved, truly spiritually-minded people aren't out there trying to hoard wealth. You rarely see millionaires using their massive earnings to tackle pressing societal issues; they’re just a tiny drop in the ocean compared to the vast majority of wealthy individuals who are simply stacking capital for themselves.

If the argument here is strictly about the cost of "spiritual" services—things like classes, seminars, or coaching—then the idea that everything should be free is fundamentally flawed. We don't live in a system where even our most basic survival needs are guaranteed at no cost, so expecting spiritual guidance to be free is unrealistic.
The actual quality of those services is a different conversation entirely, as is whether someone can actually grow through them. That’s a deeply personal journey, and it all hinges on one thing: whether the help provided is actually worth its price tag.

steelmarlin19 said:We are all carrying out the will of God.

Whether they are the ones "chosen" above everyone else or people with tiny, insignificant parts to play.

And we all have to see them through.🙂

Think about how the Divine occasionally steps down into our world, taking on a human form to act as a direct manifestation of God—roles we recognize as the Buddha, the Savior, or a Prophet. This descent happens periodically. The Highest of the high remains One, yet manifests across different eras, born into various circumstances to tackle the specific crises of that age, not just for humanity, but for all of Creation that flows from Him.
In a sense, we are also part of that essence, though we have to climb toward God through evolution. He, however, descends from God to become man—or a Godman—whenever humanity hits its absolute lowest point.

steelmarlin19 said:So, you were strictly talking about the spiritual side of things.

I was thinking more broadly about anyone "chosen" for any kind of human endeavor!

That’s why I included people I consider "chosen," even if they weren't necessarily spiritually "enlightened."

I see your point, but—if we go by that logic, then Hitler is just as "chosen" as Gandhi. And if we look at it through a spectrum where influence isn't the only metric, then every single one of us is chosen to play the exact role we're currently in.

A person's life is really just a role. It's limited by time, much like an actor plays many different parts throughout their career, adjusting those roles to reach a final goal: liberating their consciousness from the work in this "theater of life."🙂 This isn't just some theory to me; it's something I feel deeply, based on my own awareness of the "role" I'm playing right now.

steelmarlin19 said:Well, I actually know a few "enlightened" folks right in my own backyard!

But when I was talking about those specific figures earlier, I meant the truly "chosen" ones—those world-shapers who influence all of humanity and whose names everyone knows.

There aren't many of them, but they are definitely OUT THERE.

That's the key part.

And we really ought to be learning from them!

I mean, wouldn't we love to actually know some real truths? Cheers! 🍿

I'm not talking about people who just claim to be enlightened; I mean those who truly ARE. Nikola Tesla wasn't just "enlightened"—he was fully realized. You might be confusing the state of being with the people themselves, much like you'd confuse Einstein with Jesus.

Every single individual plays their part, whether it's small or specifically chosen. Even Hitler played his particular role in the Creation.

steelmarlin19 said:Oh, really?

Got an address for one of them?

Maybe you've got mine?

Just kidding!

Best, 👍

Look around you. If you're actually capable of grasping the giants of history you keep listing, then spotting a living enlightened soul—or at least one who shows up in the public eye—shouldn't be such a struggle for you.

steelmarlin19 said:Look, I’m not going to go point-by-point through everything you said—let's just keep it brief! First off—everyone is entitled to THEIR own opinion—and that goes for you, me, and every single person out there—so opinions don't have to match, and honestly, having a bunch of different perspectives on the SAME topic is actually better!

I never once said there are "special people" who are MORE valuable than everyone else, nor did I imply anyone is worth less because of any kind of deficiency—whether physical or otherwise—so we clearly had a bit of a misunderstanding there!

The whole point here is whether "chosen" people exist—meaning those gifted individuals with abilities far beyond the average person—and my stance is that I am absolutely convinced such people DO exist.

Your claim that God doesn't exist—which, by the way, is just your take (and you don't even know who my God actually is!)—is purely YOUR opinion without any actual proof, so it doesn't really carry much weight in a serious discussion.

And if you're insisting that "chosen" people DON'T exist, then what happened to legends like Buddha, Mozart, Einstein, Nikola Tesla, or Jesus Christ? They're gone, right?

I mean, does Jesus really have NO impact on this world? Seriously, what world are you living in? There are BILLIONS of people for whom He is the very MEANING of life, and His words are read every single day—not just in church, just so you know!

So, according to you, they weren't "chosen"—they just HAPPENED to possess qualities that none of us today have, and it just fell into their laps "from Mars" without any cause, just out of thin air. Truly "brilliant" logic there! Cheers! 🙂

The truth is, those kinds of people still exist today.

Paul Thompson3 said:If some people are clearly born with an edge—whether it’s looks or raw strength—why wouldn't some be naturally superior when it comes to intellect? Why wouldn't they grasp concepts that seem totally abstract to the rest of us? It feels strange—what’s the point of a creator picking specific people to be brilliant just to enlighten everyone else, while leaving the rest of us essentially stuck being dependent on them?
Let’s be honest—Einstein didn't actually do much for the world, and neither did Tesla, really. All those "genius" breakthroughs just end up being weaponized into more efficient ways to wage war or, frankly, just make the average person even more clueless.

I don't think we're talking about "making others stupid." It's more about how those who have achieved high spiritual awareness contribute to the evolution of human consciousness through their work.

In my view, it isn't that someone was hand-picked and "granted wisdom." Instead, it's about the accumulated potential an individual carries from their past and distant past. That's how people differ—not as fundamental beings, but in terms of their varying stages of developmental attributes.

Paul Thompson3 said:If some people are clearly born with an edge—whether it’s looks or raw strength—why wouldn't some be naturally superior when it comes to intellect? Why wouldn't they grasp concepts that seem totally abstract to the rest of us? It feels strange—what’s the point of a creator picking specific people to be brilliant just to enlighten everyone else, while leaving the rest of us essentially stuck being dependent on them?
Let’s be honest—Einstein didn't actually do much for the world, and neither did Tesla, really. All those "genius" breakthroughs just end up being weaponized into more efficient ways to wage war or, frankly, just make the average person even more clueless.

Not every contribution is inherently good or bad; some drive progress, while others can feel regressive. But saying Tesla didn't advance humanity is just wrong. His tech is lightyears ahead, and frankly, modern scientists can't even realize his ideas because they lack the capacity—or more likely, they just don't care. They're too busy chasing "pop science," indulging in theoretical fantasies, and burning through massive grants to fund sci-fi projects just to exploit everything in sight. Take one of his experiments where he managed to achieve an electromagnetic wave speed of about 261 miles/s—that's more than twice the speed of light. There are documents proving it, but who cares? Not the people obsessed with smashing hypothetical particles that nobody has ever seen and probably never will, all while wasting billions of dollars in the process.

Then you have the other side of technology: stuff that does nothing for conscious evolution and just exists to increase comfort or kill time. A lot of it isn't even designed for regular people; it's built for the ultra-wealthy. Look at medicine—it often ignores the actual causes and mechanisms of disease, focusing instead on a mountain of gadgets and expanding bureaucracy, which leads to more staff but also more chronic illnesses among the public. Science has lost its way because it has to satisfy its financiers, turning a profit for the state or whoever is pulling the strings.

rustymaker3 said:🙂 Before we are born, we simply don't exist. We are born, we grow, we mature...

Sure, but only on an ultrasound. 🥱