Posts by shadowcrane91

William Bennett53 said:I would truly love for my children to have the opportunity to pursue extracurricular enrichment in areas like music, language, and religion. I’m not looking for anything forced, though—especially when it comes to the religious aspect. By "forced," I mean I wouldn't want religious studies integrated into the standard curriculum at any time other than perhaps the final period of the day, and certainly not listed as a graded subject alongside their core academic requirements.

Look, I'm 100% with you that faith shouldn't be part of a student's GPA, but I am all for making religious studies an elective. Since faith is a choice, why not make the class an elective? That way, we don't just scrap the program entirely from schools.
Honestly, if there's a decent number of kids from different backgrounds, just offer their specific faiths as electives too—if someone wants to go, let 'em go.

silentraven6 said:Mine went for one hour and then the school told us they won't continue.

For the rest of the year, his teacher is giving them extra math help instead. And honestly, I'm grateful for that.

And that's totally fine.....

hiddendriver34 said:Look, this debate has been chewed over a million times already, so I don’t have much to add—but my take is pretty simple: religious studies just doesn't belong in the public school system.

That said, my kid is actually enrolled in it.

Back in first grade, we signed him up mainly to sidestep all the political drama surrounding the topic for a while.

Beyond the fact that we weren't sure what the school's logistics were—like where he’d even go if he didn't attend—we just wanted him to experience it for one year. We didn't want it to feel like some mysterious, forbidden subject he wasn't allowed to touch; we wanted him to get a feel for it so he could make his own choice later on.

He was a little torn this summer, but he ultimately decided he wants to stick with it this year too.

At the end of the day, the call is his. As long as he wants to go, we're behind him. If he decides to quit, we're behind him there, too (unless someone starts preaching that being gay is a sin or something along those lines—then the decision shifts back to me. 😉)

By the way, since I’ve been spending quite a bit of time lately scrolling through political forums, I noticed that one specific party is the only smart one to openly state that religious education shouldn't be part of the school curriculum. It seems like nobody else has the guts to say it out loud—so just be careful who you're voting for this Sunday.😉

And look...... I don't know how it's going at his school now..... but they covered stories from the Old and New Testaments, learned prayers, the Ten Commandments, etc...

They weren't debating homosexuality or anything like that...

So, did any of that even apply here????

Eventually, the kid is gonna run into the fact that certain faiths don't support gay people.....
Then, whether he still likes religion class or not—that's his call...

I mean, if you've already let him make his own choice (even if you don't fully agree with Catholic doctrine), then I think it would be fair to let him decide for himself what to do with religion class when he eventually finds out that Catholicism isn't pro-gay. 🤔

Michael Lee75 said:My kid stuck with it for the first two years before deciding he was just totally over it.

Look, I’ve always felt that religious instruction shouldn't be baked directly into the standard curriculum, but I don't think it would be a bad idea to design some kind of "world religions" course or something similar—just a way to introduce kids to the foundational beliefs of the major faiths we see here in America, along with a bit about what people believe on the other side of the globe. No matter how much we might grumble about faith or organized religion, the reality is that it has shaped pretty much everything throughout history—our literature, our music, our art in general—and honestly, it wouldn't hurt for students to have a basic grasp of that if they want to actually understand how the world works. That said, I really do think it's far too early to even touch these topics when they're still in those lower elementary grades.

Man, I love this...
I'm totally on board with my kids learning about different religions, customs, and all that stuff too.
At the end of the day, I'm raising them to respect everyone, regardless of who they are or what they believe in.

One of my absolute best friends is Muslim... and she's honestly one of the best people I know.

She respects my faith just as much as I respect hers.

nimblelynx7 said:I wouldn't bet on that. I’ve spent enough time in a major city to know how things work, but out in some tiny, ultra-conservative rural town? It's a different world entirely. People there aren't exactly itching to go against the grain.

And while certain people just sit there silently, unable to do a single thing...
That's just how it is, and it's staying that way.

☕

James Alvarez2 said:Planning on ignoring me again? 😬

I'm a practicing believer, I just don't want religious ed in public schools.
Does that make me against my own faith? 😲

My bad... I must have totally missed your post...

Why though???

I already laid out my reasons for why I DON'T want religious education stripped from the curriculum...

And honestly, not a single practical believer has given me a solid reason why they actually want it gone.

Nicole James said:Not to mention how often the people working these offices are your actual neighbors or acquaintances—which basically means you’re outing yourself to the entire town.

Nah... that just means you should be embarrassed of yourself for being different. ☕

Matthew Young35 said:Beyond that, we have to ask what this self-identification actually signifies.
I personally know plenty of people who identify as Catholic but would be the first ones protesting religious education in public schools.

There you go... how does someone claim to be Catholic and then actively work against their own faith's teachings????
Seriously, how????
Everyone else is out there trying to spread the word, yet these self-proclaimed Catholics are just suffocating their own beliefs....

It's like they don't even know who they are or what they stand for!

William Bennett53 said:You’re talking about "opting out" as if religious affiliation were membership in some social club or a political party. Where exactly is this registry you're referring to? Does the Church even maintain one? If you're talking about the Census, that covers everything under the sun; you can't exactly rely on those numbers to dictate policy until there's even a clear definition of what constitutes a Catholic.

Belonging means being part of a religious community....
I haven't tried it myself (and neither have the people whining about it), but I don't see why someone shouldn't be able to walk away if they aren't feeling it anymore.

William Bennett53 said:You’re talking about "opting out" as if religious affiliation were membership in some social club or a political party. Where exactly is this registry you're referring to? Does the Church even maintain one? If you're talking about the Census, that covers everything under the sun; you can't exactly rely on those numbers to dictate policy until there's even a clear definition of what constitutes a Catholic.

Where is this registry???
Who knows. I don't care enough about changing my own religious affiliation to have looked into it...
But there has to be some document somewhere used to pull the percentage of Catholics...

You can clearly see there are people who were checked off by someone else and they don't even care. (At least they haven't done anything to fix it.)

Matthew Young35 said:Of course I'm not.
I really don't have the patience to deal with some bureaucratic census committee. Honestly, I’ve had enough. I already had to wait five hours just to submit a request for a damn driver's license last month.

I think we can call this debate over right here....

You're complaining about being registered, but you aren't doing a single thing to change that...
I don't know if you actually can, but you haven't even bothered to look into it.

silentraven6 said:It's just like how most people claim to be Americans but can't even grasp the basics of their own language; should we really start writing like that uneducated majority? Or shouldn't we...

Regarding my point, it's about the fact that they aren't being taught about faith, empathy, compassion, or not taking God's name in vain. And it's about not praying for bad things to happen.

I don't know... I went to religion class for years and I never heard teachers talking about any of this stuff you're bringing up....
Maybe things have changed since then....

And honestly, if someone's actually bothered by being listed as Catholic, they can just uncheck the box. No need for all this drama and throwing stones.

William Bennett53 said:shadowcrane91, would you care to attempt a definition of what it actually means to be a Catholic?

I could, but I honestly can't be bothered right now...
It's taking way too much out of me 🙂
Maybe tomorrow when my phone has more than 5% battery left.

Matthew Young35 said:The school system carries an undeniable authority.
Through organized indoctrination, children are fed a steady diet of fairy tales and falsehoods.
It’s irrelevant whether the majority buys into these myths or not.
They are nothing more than fairy tales.

We are raising generations of narrow-minded religious zealots. You see sixteen-year-olds recoiling at homosexuality and lecturing others on the sanctity of marriage. For crying out loud—sixteen or seventeen-year-old kids are preaching about the sanctity of marriage!
Back in my day, kids that age were out making mistakes and hoping they didn't screw up too badly (usually they did), rather than acting as guardians of marital sanctity.

For twenty years now, we've been breeding generations of closed-minded fools.
There is more religious instruction in our schools than there is math or computer science.
But hey, since most people are Catholic, I guess it’s fine.

Maybe we can just pray our way back to an economic recovery.

Catholicism doesn't support gay marriage...
And God created male and female.....

But it also teaches you not to hate anyone.....

And that the Catholic faith promotes the sanctity of marriage....

So what's the damn problem???

If you don't believe in it, you don't have to spit on it either.....

Every religion has its own guidelines and doctrines....

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Matthew Young35 said:The idea that the people didn't identify as Catholic is simply false.
According to the census, 84% of the population was recorded that way.
Beyond the numbers, the entire census process was a total disaster. I personally know at least ten people who were listed as Catholic just because they weren't home when the enumerator showed up. They even listed me as Catholic. When I asked, "What the hell were you thinking?" the response was basically, "Well, you were baptized, so what else would you be?"

I haven't heard of anyone from that 84% trying to get themselves removed from the census just because someone else checked the wrong box...

Was it you????

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Matthew Young35 said:The idea that the people didn't identify as Catholic is simply false.
According to the census, 84% of the population was recorded that way.
Beyond the numbers, the entire census process was a total disaster. I personally know at least ten people who were listed as Catholic just because they weren't home when the enumerator showed up. They even listed me as Catholic. When I asked, "What the hell were you thinking?" the response was basically, "Well, you were baptized, so what else would you be?"

Then just opt out of Catholicism already!

What's the big deal?

Let's run a new census... if you care about changing these numbers so much—go ahead and demand one...
And guess what? Parents raising their kids in the Catholic faith are still going to write down that their kids are Catholic. That’s how they're being raised...
So why is everyone acting like this is weird?

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But let's be real, they wouldn't have even bothered drafting an international treaty with the Vatican if the people hadn't identified as Catholic...
I mean, why would any country go through the trouble of making a deal with the Holy See if everyone had declared themselves Jedi?

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Andrew Doyle said:In the schools where I actually teach, religious ed follows the exact same schedule as every other mandatory subject on the roster. It’s not some special outlier. Any kids who aren't enrolled in the religion classes just spend that period sitting in the school library like everyone else.

So what's the damn problem???

shadowcrane91 said:I know... that's exactly where the whole lack of logic kicks in.

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And as a Catholic, I definitely get that

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William Bennett53 said:If we are truly a Catholic nation that shouldn't feel any shame regarding its faith—as you suggest above—then wouldn't it follow that minorities should be the ones to adapt? This leads me to wonder: following the model of certain Islamic states in the Middle East, do you believe religion ought to become an integral part of our formal social and legal framework? In other words, are you suggesting we should abandon secularism altogether? If we did, would that effectively silence all opposition to placing crosses in public schools and government buildings? And really, looking at the big picture, do we actually gain anything positive from maintaining a secular society?

As for everything else, I firmly believe that almost anyone who truly cares about providing their children with a meaningful religious upbringing should favor church-based instruction over what is offered in public schools. Schools offer a certain level of convenience, certainly; it requires zero extra effort from a parent to manage their schedule when the curriculum is already built into the school day. But much like opting for fast food just because it’s easy, this approach lacks substance. For a practicing believer, what actual spiritual value can be gained from a standardized school religious program? It simply doesn't compare.

The reasons that immediately come to mind:
Is mandatory religious education in schools truly serving any purpose? When you frame faith as a requirement, you immediately trigger resistance in a child. It becomes a chore rather than a choice. In our experience, church-led religious studies were never an obligation; instead, they served as a wonderful, enriching extracurricular activity for those of us who attended. Why force the issue when engagement comes from genuine interest?
Does the inherent sanctity of a church building not play a profound role in how a student perceives the lessons taught by their catechist? It seems to me that the atmosphere itself lends weight to the word.
When religious studies is forced into the same rigid schedule as math or history, it loses its essence. It gets reduced to just another checkbox on a syllabus—something students feel they simply have to "get through." From a student's perspective, it becomes just as hollow and pointless as any other mandatory elective that lacks real-world relevance. Why should it be any different? If it’s treated like a chore rather than an exploration of faith, how can we expect them to care?
Assigning grades to work submitted by individuals outside the traditional school system often triggers significant backlash. I’ve personally witnessed several instances where students were essentially bullied into abandoning critical thinking by frustrated instructors. This usually happened when students started asking uncomfortable questions rooted in scientific facts they had picked up in other classes. In those cases, there was often an implicit threat: either stay quiet and remain passive, or risk having a poor grade in religion tank your chances of getting into a decent high school.

To wrap this up:
Is a church really a better environment than a school for learning religious doctrine? I would argue that it is. To those who remain skeptical, I might suggest trying both and seeing for yourselves.
Forcing children into religious education classes creates a sense of resentment, much like any other form of compulsion. To avoid this friction, the most logical step would be to remove religion from the core academic curriculum entirely—essentially taking it off the official grading roster. Instead, if these classes are to exist at all, they should be scheduled during the final hours of the school day. If it remains part of the school environment, let it function as an extracurricular activity, much like a model building club or a choir program.
- We ought to be giving people a real choice here; religious studies should be an option again, whether that's in public schools or through local churches.

I’m sure there are plenty of other points to raise, but I simply don't have the time right now... 👋

I agree that religious ed should be treated like any other elective since obviously not all kids are from the same faith, but I'm not saying pull it out of schools entirely...
Those are two totally different arguments....
And I also agree it shouldn't be graded....
The agreement with the Vatican won't be broken as long as the US declares itself a Catholic nation... and based on how Americans identify, we declare ourselves a Catholic nation....

And then these same Catholics turn around and complain about religious education...

Am I the only one seeing the massive hypocrisy here???

So the US claims to be a Catholic state, but then rebels against it because it doesn't like the guidelines set by the Catholic Church leadership?????

Larry Walker24 said:but let's be real, maybe like 10% of them actually live like Catholics

I know... and that’s exactly where the whole thing stops making sense.

Andrew Doyle said:Absolutely not.
As long as that agreement with Vatican City signed by the US government back in the mid-90s remains in effect—religion stays in the schools. So much for our supposedly secular nation.

And regarding this idea of the "majority"... let me tell you about my local municipal daycare. We had 27 parents on one side pushing for Catholic grace before meals, and I was the only single person standing my ground saying I didn't want that. They didn't manage to force it through (not after I brought in journalists and lawyers to back me up). And yeah, they gave me the death stare for a while because, apparently, I was personally responsible for their little ones not praying before lunch. You want prayer before a meal? Go to a private religious preschool or pray at home. It has no business being in the only public, state-run daycare in town, especially when I, as a parent who doesn't want this, have zero alternatives. I pay my taxes for that daycare just like everyone else. A public daycare in a secular country!

It's indoctrination from infancy—exactly the kind of thing that pedagogy, common sense, and actual tolerance should be fighting against.

Regarding religious classes in school, luckily here they are scheduled either first thing in the morning or at the very end of the day. My kid actually looks forward to arriving a bit later or getting to head home early because of it.

And as long as most Americans still identify as Catholic, nothing is ever going to change...
Amen

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So I guess people of other faiths in this country just have to deal with it, because as long as their votes stay in the minority, nothing changes...
Amen

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silentraven6 said:Torture isn't just reserved for atheists; it’s happening to other believers too.

There's also this one really interesting thing that happened—when the idea of starting a petition to replace religious education with something else came up, I actually got an email from this self-righteous "believer" who was basically the modern-day version of a Pharisee.

And thirdly, yesterday I saw firsthand exactly what this religious curriculum is teaching kids. To quote them: "God, please... don't let him show up at the park, please let him get sick, he's disgusting." And I'm not even talking about some little bully here; it's just pure, unadulterated spite.

Lastly—the way these religious instructors are hired and employed completely clashes with basic civil rights and the fundamental norms of a secular society.

Good grief, I never learned stuff like that in my religion classes, and I highly doubt they've changed enough to be teaching kids to pray for someone else's misery...

Seriously though.

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Matthew Young35 said:One day, you might find yourself standing alone as the minority on an issue that actually matters to you. Honestly? I truly hope the majority dictates your path instead.
I really do wish that for you.

But I certainly don't wish it for your children, if you have any. For the sake of your kids, I hope you're always part of the majority.

You don't have to "spare" them...
For what???? And why????

Look, I just care that parents with three or more kids, who are allowed to stay home for three years, actually have enough money to live on during those three years...
But clearly, there isn't a majority opinion on this, so I guess I’ll just deal with it. I'm not going to sit here whining like it's the end of the world like everyone else obsessed with religious education...

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Nancy Martin93 said:Kids sign up for religion class because it's an easy A—which, unfortunately, carries the same weight as math—plus, you get two free hours every week to do whatever you want! That's the real reason—for me, back in high school, I used those religion periods to grab coffee for four years straight, so there's that! And hey, he was getting paid for it too (well, okay, I was enrolled, and the class only met four times a year)

Look, I didn't enroll my kids just to hunt for easy grades...
Honestly, it never even crossed my mind (but those are exactly the kind of messed-up motivations I'm talking about)

In my case, I actually had to show up for religion class, and absolutely nobody in my class ever skipped out to go get coffee during that time. 🤷

That "free period" thing only applies to the kids who *didn't* sign up for the class...

But again, don't blame the subject matter itself....
As long as there's a massive crowd of parents demanding their kids get religious instruction during school hours, it's going to stay on the curriculum....
And as long as 95% of parents force their kids into it, it's not getting scrapped just because of that other 5% (no matter what the actual reasons are for that 95%)

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