briskraven28 said:Since you seem so eager to define terms—would you mind actually defining "spiritual" first?...
Definitions are unnecessary—it is an illusion to think we can define anything when our very tool for definition, language, is what constructs the syntagms of reality as we perceive them... As long as you view life through the lens of language, you will struggle with the need to define. Once the grip of vocabulary finally loosens, perhaps you will stop seeking definitions altogether and simply begin approaching what you subjectively experience as "reality."
Spirituality is composed of various levels—which means, naturally, that levels of awakening can vary quite significantly...
I find myself skeptical regarding your concept of levels—it’s much like claiming the universe is composed of distinct layers; essentially saying it's infinite yet attempting to grasp it by imagining floors... solar systems, galaxies, the Milky Way, micro versus macro... it just doesn't follow.
To my mind, there is no distinction between the spiritual and the non-spiritual—that divide exists only within language itself. It implies a fragmented way of perceiving things, a tendency to categorize... and once you allow that division to take root in your head, you inevitably fall for the illusion of "growth." If something is truly whole, it is indivisible; it simply *is*. There is no room for fragmentation, and therefore, no room for growth—only the growing illusion of progress. One might call this "pure consciousness," or whatever terminology people prefer... personally, I’d just call it "cat's paw." 😳 The only thing that matters—provided we actually understand one another—is that we are on the same page...
The truth is simply whatever the individual perceives spiritually—exactly what they sense. That sensation becomes their spiritual reality, their truth. Anything else... well, that’s just a lie.
If there exists some notion of wholeness, indivisibility, or pure consciousness—whatever one chooses to label it—what part of that is mere fabrication, and what constitutes the truth? Is it even possible to separate the two...
It is an illusion—and frankly, a waste of breath—to sit around philosophizing about what constitutes spiritual truth versus falsehood. One simply needs to show up... once you arrive, everything becomes more than crystal clear. That is the priority. Just get there.
On this PDF, people constantly spout these parrot-like "dogmas" regarding some supposed divine "ineffability"—this idea that "awakening" is also somehow "ineffable"... I suspect this has nothing to do with true ineffability and everything to do with the speaker's own lack of clarity—or perhaps just a mediocre ability to articulate a thought. That isn't inherently a flaw, mind you... but it’s frequently used as a convenient excuse for things they label "sublime," claiming such truths can only be "experienced" rather than spoken.
Anything experienced can be conveyed—provided the messenger possesses the capacity to express it. There is a certain beauty here, from a subjective standpoint, in these shared experiences... It isn't some illusory discount when someone successfully transmits their reality; it’s merely a "template" for those who lack either the experience or the ability to articulate it.
It’s that relentless, nagging urge to constantly please everyone else around you—it's honestly exhausting just thinking about it!
Look, there’s no point in even trying to define things because it’s all an illusion—the very language we use as a tool to grasp reality is what actually constructs the patterns we think we're seeing! As long as you're staring through the lens of language, you'll be stuck in this endless, exhausting loop of trying to pin things down. But honestly, once you finally let go of those linguistic reins and stop obsessing over labels, you might actually stop chasing definitions and just start drifting toward that raw, subjective experience people call "reality."
😕 Look, in your last paragraph you're saying the exact opposite of what you said before, so much for being consistent! 😢
Look, if you think you can explain everything using just some basic alphabet, you're missing the point, though I guess even with thirty characters you could technically map out any phenomenon, thought, or feeling until someone actually understands it—it’s like how we use language to grasp the spiritual realm right up to the edge where speech begins, specifically within the world of Atzilut. But let's get real here, because behind that there’s another whole dimension, and beyond even that lies Ein Sof—total Infinity. There isn't even a language for that; it's completely beyond anything we can wrap our heads around.
I honestly don't buy those levels you're talking about for a second—it's just like someone trying to claim the entire universe is made of distinct layers! It’s like saying the cosmos is infinite, yet because our tiny brains can't actually wrap themselves around that concept, we try to cheat by picturing it in floors or tiers, like stacking the solar system, then the galaxy, then the Milky Way, or some micro-to-macro nonsense just to make it feel manageable.
Of course you "don't believe it." You know why? Because it feels great to stay in denial—it’s comfortable, it strokes your ego, and frankly, it’s just easier that way. But here's the reality check you aren't expecting: the spiritual realm doesn't give a damn about what you want. It isn't going to bend itself to fit your little desires; you’re the one who has to get your act together and align your selfish wants with the actual truth. 😉
Look, I don't buy this whole artificial split between the spiritual and the non-spiritual for one second; it's just a linguistic trap people use to pigeonhole everything, and honestly, once you start categorizing stuff like that, you’re just inviting division into your head, which leads to that fake nonsense about "personal growth." If something is truly whole and undivided, then it just *is*—it doesn't need to be sliced up into pieces, and there's no such thing as "growing" because there's nothing to add to something that's already complete, so all this talk about progress is really just an illusion of growth. You could call it "pure consciousness" if you want to sound fancy and academic, but personally, I'd just call it whatever, even something as ridiculous as "cat's paw," because at the end of the day, it's all one single, indivisible reality. 😳 Look, at the end of the day, all that matters is that we're actually on the same page about what's going on here.
Fine. But seriously, why does cabbage grow? Or bell peppers? Why do you even bother dragging yourself out of bed in the morning? Why does your neighbor get up? Why do kids grow up, or animals? What exactly is this "Wholeness" trying to accomplish with all these biological processes? Does Wholeness actually want anything at all? In the end, what is even the point of life and everything else? And what the hell are you even doing with your existence?
If there’s this whole idea of wholeness, indivisibility, perfection, pure consciousness, or whatever you want to call it, what part of that is a lie and what part is the truth? Can you even tell them apart?
You’d just keep digging for some kind of excuse to justify your own comfortable delusions and beliefs. Of course Wholeness contains both lies and the truth! It’s pretty simple: a lie is still a lie, and the truth is still the truth. But you’d love to find some way to "level the playing field" so you can keep lying to yourself while calling it "valid." 😛
Once you actually feel that sense of Wholeness—and maybe you’ve already been grazed by it—this whole debate about truth versus lies gets a massive reality check where there isn't even a tiny bit of room left for doubt. The spiritual realm is a sphere of raw forces and influence. There is no "this or that," no "maybe I have influence, maybe I don't."
On this forum, people constantly spout these parrot-like "dogmas" about how things are supposedly "ineffable," or how "awakening" itself is "ineffable." In my opinion, that has nothing to do with being ineffable and everything to do with the person talking being vague or just having a weak ability to express themselves. That’s not inherently bad or a flaw, but it’s often used as an excuse to label something as "sublime" simply because they claim it can only be "experienced" rather than spoken about.
I basically agree with you regarding the varying ability to express things. But look, there’s a huge difference between someone lecturing me at length about the flavor of a pepper I’ve never tasted and me actually biting into the damn pepper myself. All those instructions saying you "must experience" something before you can talk about it refer to that exact distinction. This forum is crawling with people talking about peppers without ever having put one in their mouth. Those who actually have? They figure it out fast. Spirituality is constant and has specific characteristics. For everyone who has actually experienced it, finding common ground and mutual confirmation isn't hard at all.
Anything that is experienced can be communicated, provided the person communicating has enough skill to express it. There are some beautiful subjective experiences and insights shared here. I don't think it's some sort of illusory effort when someone successfully conveys their experience; it's just a "template" for those who either lack the experience or don't know how to pass it on.
Sharing experiences is never a waste of time; I always welcome that. But sharing experiences is not the same thing as philosophizing and guessing the taste of a pepper without ever tasting it. Sure, that kind of theorizing has its value in building a hunger for the spiritual, but once you start pretending it's the absolute truth, it just becomes ridiculous.