Posts by analogsurfer15

Mark Torres14 said:Every time I jump into a debate on this forum, I walk away feeling like a total amateur. It’s like I’m constantly unread and out of the loop when it comes to actual philosophy or specific schools of thought. Someone always drops a book title I’ve never heard of, cites an author I barely recognize, or calls my logic basic compared to, say, the way Žižek's sentences twist and turn to catch you off guard.
If you wanted to build a foundation today—something to read, watch, or listen to—so you could honestly call yourself an intellectual on the level of Ernest Hemingway, where would you even start?
Personally, no matter how hard I try, I just can't seem to get there.
Just when I think I’ve finally grasped something, some N'dugu or that quiet, spotted user shows up and shuts me right back down to earth.😍

🙏

That’s easy to say when life is comfortable. Just don't let them drop you in the middle of the Alaskan wilderness or some godforsaken desert where you can't even find enough scraps to boil a decent bowl of soup. Then you'd really get a taste of what it means to truly know nothing...😂

James Lee77 said:Nah, asking for forgiveness is asking too much. A victim shouldn't be forced to decide whether or not to give it just because someone asked. Honestly, the person who messed up isn't even in a position to ask for anything from the victim. Like, where do they get the right to demand anything at all?

So, yeah, "forgive me" feels like overkill. A sincere "I'm sorry" should be enough. And I don't mean a fake, polite "sorry"—I mean real, gut-wrenching regret. Anyone who's ever truly felt bad about something they did knows how much that actually hurts... 🤷 . When you say that, you're basically putting yourself at the mercy of the other person's judgment. You're letting them decide how to react. It makes you more vulnerable than if you were just demanding forgiveness. And I guess that's actually fair. They should be exposed like that.

Plus, it's often super unclear who even has the authority to forgive. Like, what if someone lost their life? Who gets to forgive on behalf of the person who was killed? Does the family have that right? Wouldn't they just see the request as totally unreasonable? 🤷 That's why I stick with "I'm sorry" instead of "forgive me." If forgiveness follows a real apology, then hey, I'll take it gladly. If it doesn't? Well, it'll hurt more, but I guess I just have to accept that too. I don't really have a choice in the matter.

Well put.🙂 But I think we're just splitting hairs on wording here—whether you ask, beg, or simply say, "I'm sorry," "I truly regret this," or whatever else (it could be a whole monologue depending on how much the person likes to talk, or maybe just total silence), the victim always holds all the cards. They have the freedom to say no to that forgiveness, right?

And seriously—it's only right that the person who messed up is left at the mercy of the victim's judgment. Whatever that looks like. If seeking forgiveness or showing regret came with a guaranteed outcome, it would be totally pointless.

steelridge58 said:I honestly don't know how I managed to get myself this worked up about something so small, but here we are, staring at this whole mess together. It’s funny, really—how much energy we pour into these tiny details when life is already so chaotic, isn't it? I suppose I just find myself getting caught up in the nuances more than most people would like to admit, which probably says more about my own restless brain than the actual topic at hand. Anyway, I was thinking about what analogsurfer15 mentioned earlier, and even though I might be overthinking things, there's just something about that perspective that feels incredibly grounded. It’s easy to lose your footing when everything feels like it's shifting under your feet, but having those moments of clarity makes all the difference.

The inability to forgive is a heavy weight, but let’s be honest—it’s a burden carried exclusively by the person actually feeling that crushing pressure. Guilt works the same way; it’s an internal ache that only truly weighs on the one who feels it, unless you find a way to shift that gravity elsewhere. You can't just outsource your guilt or magically wash away the need for forgiveness through someone else, because the process really has to happen deep within yourself. In a strange way, the two sides of this coin—the one who caused the harm and the one who suffered it—eventually merge into a single entity: ourselves. We are the only ones capable of facilitating true forgiveness or finally letting go of that lingering sense of remorse. It doesn't even matter if I seek out the person I hurt to ask for their grace; if I haven't done the internal work to resolve my own actions, their response won't change my reality. My ability to move past a betrayal, an injustice, or a profound disappointment isn't dependent on the other person's repentance or their willingness to acknowledge what happened, but rather on whether I can find peace within my own soul.
But honestly, the truth is that the people actually caught up in the middle of all this—the ones whose lives are directly impacted by the situation and who wouldn't even be part of the equation if things hadn't gone down this way—they really have the power to facilitate a sense of mutual healing, provided that what you mentioned in your point below is taken seriously:

It isn't enough to just mutter "I'm sorry" and call it a day; you actually have to sit with the weight of what you did and truly grasp how much it hurt the other person. If the person who was wronged can feel that you actually understand the gravity of their pain, they might find a way toward forgiveness a little easier—and honestly, if the person responsible can truly face that heavy burden of guilt, maybe they’ll finally find a path toward forgiving themselves too, as they both walk this shared, difficult road toward healing.

When you're staring down those truly heavy, soul-crushing crimes—like the one I mentioned earlier, though honestly, I think this applies to almost any deep trauma—I've started thinking that maybe "forgiveness" isn't even the right word for it. It feels more like a raw act of survival, or perhaps a way of rising above the sheer, earthly madness that causes such violence and hits us all so hard in the gut. You have to tap into this profound strength within your own spirit just to make it through, all so that one day you can finally find peace within yourself and be able to look at the other person and simply say, "go in peace."
To forgive—it really means more than just letting go, it’s about finally overcoming your own limitations and becoming a true sanctuary for your own soul, which, if we're being honest, is often the only thing we truly have.

😘

The whole idea of forgiveness is such a slippery concept. I feel like what you're talking about here is that internal peace people crave despite the evil someone else threw at them—even when the culprit isn't asking for forgiveness (whether they won't because they don't get how bad they messed up, or they're just immoral, cruel, or whatever). I wouldn't call that forgiveness, though. To me, forgiveness only works if justice is served for the victim. And sometimes justice isn't there, or it can't be, so in those cases, there's no forgiveness. That doesn't mean a person can't let go of the culprit and move on with their life—which is a great way to put it—overcoming it through the strength of one's own spirit.

🙂

florine said:yeah, there's something both touching and eerie about how the Japanese have accepted the atomic bomb as part of their folklore. They aren't blaming anyone, they aren't seeking revenge...

See, that would be a perfect example of using your own inner strength to release the guilty from your life. But, that's the Japanese. The question is whether they actually forgave—they definitely haven't forgotten.

🙂

Mark Torres14 said:Nice one, analogsurfer15. You're stuck on the same thing I am: the humiliation of the person begging for forgiveness. How do you even live with yourself afterward and pretend nothing happened?
From where I'm standing, it takes at least two generations before you can even talk about true forgiveness or reconciliation.
If anyone held onto more hatred in Europe after World War II, it was the Frenchmen and the Germans. It’s only now that their grandkids are building a unified Europe together. It'll be the same here. We won't be able to talk about "normalizing" relations with the descendants of those who wronged us until our children's children take over—once they aren't weighed down by the baggage of old partisans versus collaborators, or defenders versus those who didn't fight. Until then, any talk of forgiveness is just cheap political conformism used for PR.
If forgiveness actually exists, it moves at a snail's pace.

Hmm, that’s not what I meant at all. I don't see asking for forgiveness as humiliating—honestly, it shows the culprit actually has a conscience, assuming we aren't just talking about those empty, hollow apologies— I'm sorry, forgive me, which people toss around way too easily. To me, you can only truly feel the need to ask for forgiveness if you actually identify with the victim and the loss they're suffering because of your actions. It’s only when you realize exactly what you stripped away from them that you can even begin to understand what they might need from you. And it's only *after* that apology that you can actually move forward... you can find peace not just with the other person (if they actually grant it), but with yourself, right?

If we're talking about humiliation, it's the victim who feels it, not the one at fault. Victims don't need pity—though empathy is vital just so the culprit understands the damage done—but pity isn't justice. If you intentionally drive someone into a corner, say, leave them totally broke like someone losing everything in a massive Wall Street crash, the only real justice is making things right again. Only then can you ask for forgiveness, and only then can the victim potentially give it. Just saying I'm sorry isn't enough to settle the score; the person at fault has to feel that same sense of loss themselves. That's the only way to respect the victim. Offering forgiveness without any actual restitution is what truly humiliates the victim. In that light, some religious ideas of "just forgive" seem almost ridiculous... or just sad, because they ignore basic human dignity.

Sure, forgiving someone over material stuff is easy, but when it comes to emotional wreckage, it's a whole different beast. That's why I said forgiveness is possible, except when it simply isn't. Theoretically, anything can be forgiven, but you can only really know that by living through it... emotions have a way of completely hijacking your logic, don't they?

Bottom line—the culprit doesn't get humiliated, but the victim sure can.
🙂

Mark Torres14 said:Look, we're talking about forgiveness here. My whole point was that true forgiveness just isn't possible.

Whoa, hold up—of course forgiveness is possible. I'm not saying it’s always easy or even doable, but it can happen, provided certain things fall into place. And look, without getting bogged down in the philosophical definitions of what "forgiveness" actually means, I kind of agree with what someone else mentioned earlier... you need two people for this to work: the one who messed up and the victim. But here's the kicker—it’s the perpetrator who really needs the drive to seek it. Because if they don't care, then what's the point? Why would I even bother forgiving someone who doesn't give a damn? We aren't saints, after all... we can't just hand out grace to everyone left and right unless we're trying to buy our way into heaven. But I don't think we're talking about that religious, Christian type of absolution here. I mean the kind of forgiveness that fixes a broken relationship between two people in this life—where one person's actions turned the other into a victim, right?

Forgiveness works if the person at fault actually realizes they screwed someone over. And that realization only happens if they can actually step into the victim's shoes. People say emotions are the key part of that, and yeah, obviously they are... without empathy, there’s no conscience. Sure, maybe some rigid moral code could guide them, making them feel guilty because they broke some ethical rule, but honestly? I think most people's moral compasses are built on that initial, gut-level emotional connection to the victim. It's that feeling where you realize, "Man, anyone could be in their position through no fault of their own."

Bottom line? The person who did wrong has to want it, and the victim can only grant it if they are absolutely certain the other person gets what they did. They have to be able to feel the pain or the loss caused by that person... that's where a sense of justice comes in, which we were talking about before. Is that always going to happen? Probably not... except when it does.🤔

Edward Flores4 said:That’s not it at all... they're both part of the same thing!

Giving and receiving are really just "heads" and "tails" on the exact same coin. Just like any other transaction you'll run into, this one is mutual. You can't have a sale without a buyer, and you can't have a gift without someone to accept it.

The truth is, giving and receiving don't actually have opposites... the act of giving and the act of receiving are essentially ONE single thing. Sure, you can negate them—by not giving or not receiving—but true opposites don't exist in the action itself. Opposites are just things we create when we start categorizing stuff; they come from our labels, not the actions themselves. Actions don't have opposites—an action triggers a reaction, which brings us right back to those two sides of the same coin. We only see "opposites" once we start grouping behaviors into abstract categories or statistics.

Exactly. Without reciprocity, you don't actually have a giver—you just have someone making an offer. There’s no receiver until they actually step up and take what's being offered.

A mugger isn't a "giver," and someone forcing something on you—like dumping trash in your yard—isn't a giver either. And if you actually pick up that trash? You aren't a receiver... you're just a fool.🙂

Little Bud starts out as an offerer, then becomes a giver once people show up to take, and eventually becomes a receiver once those takers start giving back. So, are we offering to give, or are we offering (and giving) just so we can receive?

Can you even truly be a giver without also being a receiver? Or do people who are *only* givers and *only* receivers actually exist in the real world? I'm thinking about it, really thinking... but I can't quite wrap my head around a real example...🙂

swiftcobra15 said:The USA is essentially a nation of inmates and convicts. We have more prisoners per capita than anyone else on the planet.
But who actually ends up behind bars? Take a look at these figures:

STUDIES: ATHEISTS SUPPLY LESS THAN 1% OF PRISON POPULATIONS
by Wayne Aiken, North Carolina Director
AMERICAN ATHEISTS

I’m often surprised by people telling me, "You're an Atheist? You probably don't feel any guilt when committing a crime." That couldn't be more wrong. If we actually take a close look at our prison populations, the reality tells a completely different story.

In "The New Criminology," Max d. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith note that after analyzing data across two generations of statisticians, the ratio of convicts lacking religious upbringing is roughly 0.1%. Furthermore, W. T. Root, a Professor of Psychology at the University of Pittsburgh, studied 1,916 inmates and observed that "indifference to religion, due to thought, strengthens character." He noted that Unitarians, Agnostics, Atheists and Free-Thinkers are almost entirely absent from our penitentiaries.
During 10 years in Sing Sing, among those executed for murder, 65% were Catholics, 26% were Protestants, 6% were Hebrew, 2% were Pagans, and less than 1/3 of 1% were non-religious.

I don't think a word-for-word translation is necessary here. Essentially, there is a very distinct religious makeup among inmates. While we shouldn't treat these specific numbers as absolute law—since they represent a specific sample rather than the entire country—the ratios remain fairly consistent across various parts of the USA.

So, looking at the data from Sing Sing, we see that 56% of murderers were Catholic (given that about one in four Americans is Catholic), 26% were Protestant (roughly one in every two Americans), 6% were Jew, and everyone else was a tiny fraction.
Non-believers are represented in prison at a rate a hundred times lower than their actual share of the general population.

How do you all make sense of this? Why does it seem that Catholics are significantly more prone to crime, while Atheists are quite the opposite? 😕

You’re missing a huge part of the equation here—why are Protestants less likely to commit crimes than Catholics, or put another way, why are Catholics more criminal than Protestants? (In America, obviously 🙂). I mean, even Protestants seem more prone to crime than atheists, so I get the feeling you weren't actually asking what you phrased... maybe you were hinting at something else. Like... maybe—just maybe—is it just that religious people in general are more prone to crime than non-believers?.. 🙂

Are they, though? What even defines a believer versus a non-believer? Just claiming to belong to a religion doesn't necessarily make someone a true believer. Right?

Or maybe the question is exactly what it looks like, and the answer is simply that Catholicism is the most hypocritical religion on the planet, and its followers are the biggest hypocrites of all... 🙂 It’s not surprising, really. Catholics basically feel like they have a free pass for everything because everything is "forgiven." They have this strict Bob who yells and makes threats, but he’s actually just a big softie because He forgives everything in the end... maybe He’s just having some identity issues... 😁

Scraped this from the web: It’s actually been confirmed that colors affect us whether we can see them in real-time or not. The whole reason behind it is that colors can send out specific vibrations. Back in Russia, they ran some studies with blind people where they were presented with certain colors. Red was usually described as being warm, rough, restless, or even "rattly"... meanwhile, blind participants always described blue as smooth and cold, even though the researchers used the exact same materials with identical temperatures and textures.

swiftcobra15 said:"a human being is a living creature possessing human DNA" ...

The whole "When does life begin?" debate is just... pointless.

Look, a human is a *being*. So the question should really be—when does a zygote with human DNA become a human?🙂 A zygote is just the starting point for any life, just like any other living thing. If you want a biological answer, it’s pretty straightforward: human life as a distinct entity kicks in once embryogenesis wraps up (around 12 weeks after conception... or should we say fertilization?). That’s when the embryo becomes a fetus. It isn't some deep philosophical, legal, medical, or ethical riddle. It's just pure biology.

But "becoming human" isn't something you can just check off with a single biological fact and call it a day. I get the feeling the title wasn't even intended to be answered that way...🙂

Or was it?😕

lonecrane42 said:A woman’s greatness shows in big moments, but she’s tiny in the little ones.
Hardly any woman tries to win you over with wit, let alone soul or kindness...
She’ll talk romance with Alcibiades or philosophy with a handsome Lysander, but she won't give even a second to an old, ugly Socrates.
A woman might forgive a guy for his worst sins, but she won't forgive another woman for her best virtues.
She loves you most when she’s the one doing the forgiving.
Nick thinks worse of women than the guy who’s already head over heels for one.
I judge a man by what he says, and a woman by everything she leaves unsaid.
Men have childhoods, youth, and old age, but a woman stays a kid forever—treating everything like a toy.
Men are brave facing death, but women are brave facing life: men face other men, while women face destiny itself.
Nothing kills love faster than a man being too nice... if you want a woman to love you, you gotta act like a man.
A man in love wonders how to share his luck, while a woman figures out how to double it.
Women are the ultimate spark for human creation... 😳 They’re the peak of a man's thoughts and actions, and we owe all human genius to them.
Youth and love... that's really all there is.
Only in love and death can people be equals, where the last one to arrive hits the first.
There are two kinds of marriages: one for the young and their prime, and one for the old and their decline... 😛 One to split the joy and the grief, the other to split the misery and the sickness.
Two real tragedies in life: having no health and having no friends.
The best people are those hardest on themselves, forgiving others for things they'd never excuse in themselves. People who share the same virtues love each other, just like those with the same flaws hate each other.
Great men judge others by their virtues; small men judge by their flaws.
Talk about someone good for half an hour, and you’ll feel peaceful, maybe even proud of how good you feel.
Crude words and manners come from the poor, but deep malice and dark vendettas? That’s high-society stuff.
Old age, sickness, and poverty... combined, they're the ultimate disaster for anyone.
People rarely have evil goals; it's usually just evil methods.
A person can never say as much wisdom as they can through silence.
It's a myth that everyone is the architect of their own happiness; honestly, we're more like the architects of our own misery.
Society only tolerates an old man if he's funny or loaded.
The one thing men won't forgive another man for is having a hotter wife.
It's a tragedy when you don't know what you want, but a total catastrophe when you don't know what you're capable of.
Sometimes a path looks righteous because you see an atheist getting rich and successful. Man, if only they could see where that road ends.
The atheist fears a sudden death, the thief fears a burglar, the killer fears the blade, the narcissist fears shame, and the slanderer fears the truth coming out.
Whatever the godless man fears... that's exactly what's going to find him.
God didn't make us to perish, but to be saved. Does a gardener plant veggies just to watch them wither and die? God only has one wish: that everyone turns away from evil.
If someone knew the number of stars, the names of every fish, the blades of grass, and the habits of wild animals, but still had no fear of God, their knowledge would be as useless as water in a sieve.
If someone could guess every human thought, predict every fate, and reveal every secret hidden deep in the earth, but lacked fear of God, their knowledge would be like milk poured into a dirty cup—spoiled instantly.
Even the hairs on your head are counted, so why worry about friends or enemies on this earth? Don't stress about having too many friends or too many enemies. Don't worry about enemies overcoming you, and don't expect your friends to save you. Just try to keep God as a friend and don't fear anything.
Fighting monsters is easy. We have tools they don't... But fighting evil spirits? Harder. They play by rules we can't even touch.
Money isn't life. It's just some accessory for this short stint on earth.
Physical marriage is just a shadow of a spiritual one. In the physical kind, you get the good stuff first, then the bitter part. Spiritual is the opposite... pain first, joy later.
A bag of dust doesn't make a single grain of gold worth more.
Wolves have been hunting lambs forever. No lamb ever killed a wolf, yet there are way more lambs than wolves out there...
Conquering your own anger is basically what being a soldier of Christ is all about. Usually, we get pissed at people we're trying to save from sin, or at our haters. We forget that anger is a death trap... trying to save others just ends up losing us instead.
Don't covet anything that belongs to your neighbor. Once you want it, you've already planted the seed of evil. It grows, spreads, and starts driving your hands, feet, eyes, and tongue to do wrong. The body is just the soul's tool. If the soul wants it, the body follows... if not, it won't.
The boss of the soul is also the boss of the body.
Nick isn't great if he isn't standing behind someone bigger...
Do something good and bury it under a rock. That rock will find its own voice and tell everyone.
There’s nothing harder than trying to explain spiritual stuff to people who only care about the material world.
The Devil wouldn't even have a job if people didn't keep him busy...
Treat every day like a whole lifetime. Live it as one complete unit, not just a fragment. Make sure every day passes like a whole person you'd actually want to meet again—someone you could show off to the universe without feeling ashamed.
Laziness is just against human nature. Nature wants to build, work, move. Being lazy is just a sign that someone's nature is totally warped.
Laziness is a deadly sin because it kills the soul. A lazy body is a nest for vices, and a lazy soul is where the Devil sets up shop.
If someone can't handle our little mistakes, they don't love us. And the person who won't forgive us when we repent doesn't love us either. Least of all the one who won't celebrate our progress.
You get the kind of friends you give out.
Loving your parents is the foundation. You can't move past that without learning how to love properly first.
Don't act like you're wise. Not with someone else's wisdom, and definitely not your own... because once you start acting wise, it means you haven't got much left.
History tracks two kinds of heroes: the ones who die for their ideals, and the ones who kill others for theirs.
Someone pretending they know everything is actually beneath the guy who knows nothing.
Wanna fix the world? Fix yourself first.
Wanna fix the country? Fix yourself first.
Wanna fix the nation? Fix yourself first.
Wanna fix the small town? Fix yourself first.
Starting with yourself and fixing yourself first—that's

Look, I’ve got an extra tailor's tape lying around at my place. And a decent little scale, too. You want to buy them?😬