Edward Flores4 said:Look, let's just say you view this as an inevitable part of the process—something that simply has to happen—and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it that we really need to sit around and debate.
Quincy:| Being spontaneous—true spontaneity—means a person is naturally detached from the mind. It’s that effortless state where you aren't being constantly harassed or bullied by your own thoughts, emotions, or primal impulses. You aren't reacting to everything like a reflex; instead, you're actually grounded in your true self, acting out of pure awareness rather than just running on autopilot from some mental script. Honestly, seeing that kind of natural detachment is incredibly rare. I mean, personally, I don't know a single soul who was born with that kind of innate clarity. |
We’re all born this way—pure and unfiltered—but then we get taught how to weaponize language, and honestly, everything just goes straight down the drain. 😁
Quincy:| Look, I’ve been practicing meditation since 1992—so I've put in my fair share of hours—and I actually know what we're talking about here. I know exactly what it feels like when you approach meditation with a specific goal in mind, trying to "fix" yourself, or when you're just riding a wave of motivation. I know the feeling of trying to calculate your way through a session, or that subtle, restless urge to transform into someone else, or some other version of yourself. I also know the darker side of the coin—when meditation stops being a peaceful retreat and starts feeling like a total grind. I’ve been there, sitting in the stillness, only to run headfirst into pure darkness—facing death, sheer horror, or those truly bizarre, unsettling phenomena that most people don't talk about. It's not all sunshine and rainbows. |
Oh, come on now... since you brought it up—tell me, do you actually know what you’re dealing with when you start talking about the darkness, death, horror, and those truly bizarre phenomena?
Look, I’m not sitting here expecting some grand, mythological breakdown filled with demons and illusions—that's not really what I'm after. What I'm actually looking for is a way to wrap my head around those old mythological descriptions, maybe by blending them with a bit of my own personal insight.
I’m asking because, honestly, experience alone doesn't mean a damn thing if you don't actually have a functional understanding of what happened. To me, those kinds of experiences are a lot like getting a random phone call from an unknown number—they might be useful if you actually know who's calling and why, but without that context? It's just noise. Otherwise, you're basically just sitting there watching a movie projected onto your mind—one that's designed to either entertain you or scare the hell out of you. I hope you see where I'm coming from?
Quincy:| I truly understand what it means to "work on yourself"—and I also know the traps that come with it. There’s that dangerous tendency to put your life on hold, constantly deferring your actual existence to some hypothetical future version of yourself. You tell yourself you'll finally start living once you've sat through enough hours of meditation, repeated enough mantras, fasted enough, or checked off all those other spiritual boxes. It’s easy to fall into that loop of waiting to become someone "better." But at the same time, I get the pull of meditation. I know that bliss—not just a little bit of peace, but that overwhelming, almost unbearable, soaring bliss. I’ve experienced that boundless joy because I know how magnetic silence can be. And ultimately, I know what it feels like when meditation becomes spontaneous, just a natural part of being. Unfortunately, I also know exactly what it feels like to lose it. I know the lyrics, and I definitely know the tune. |
In my opinion, chasing that raw physical sensation—that pure bliss—is honestly going way beyond the point. It’s just straight-up pleasure seeking at that stage. Now, I’m not saying it’s "wrong" or that it’s going to ruin your life, but let's be real: you’ll have plenty of "time" to indulge in that once you're dead. At the end of the day, an experience should really just be a tool for gaining insight. But people tend to get hung up on the labels; they hear a message, cling to it, and somehow convince themselves that the meaning lies within the message itself. That’s where they miss the mark. You need to grasp what the message is telling you, and then—once you've truly understood it—you need to hang up the phone.
Quincy:| But if you accept that free will as such doesn't exist... |
I definitely don't accept that. Free will clearly exists, and I can argue that from at least three different angles. The best one might be this:
Free will is actually a negative description. It doesn't describe a specific "type of will," but rather just the "absence of inevitability." For someone who lacks any reactive capacity, everything is inevitable—but for someone who possesses reactive capacity, the degree of that "absence of inevitability" grows proportionally with their reactive possibilities.
If everything were purely inevitable, we wouldn't even have the physiological reactive capacity specifically adapted to where we live... that much is obvious.
On the other hand, if everything happened exclusively as a consequence of our "free will"—we’d be dead in no time. You don't actually know how your endocrine glands, your liver, or your immune system function. If you had to "trigger" any of those things using your own free will, you'd be in huge trouble.
So, it's clear that besides "willful" actions, we have "inevitabilities" and "automations." Other people's "automations" become our "inevitabilities," and vice versa. Everything that steps outside the framework of "automations" becomes the subject of "free will." To say that free will doesn't exist is to deny your own reactive mechanism—a mechanism whose very function is an essential part of the process of consciousness fragmentation and differentiation, which in turn creates the problem that is simultaneously the foundation of life itself.
This ultimately leads us to the conclusion that "free will" is actually a problem that constantly generates division and conflict, and those divisions and conflicts are the driving engine of existence and life as we know it. So... that’s one way of looking at it, and if you don't follow that one, I can certainly offer another—though that would probably depend on your answer to the question regarding "darkness and horror."
Quincy:| If everything in nature is directed toward our growth because divine energy guides us all toward liberation, if free will doesn't exist—then it doesn't exist for those who formally meditate either. They are being guided as well. |
I don't agree with this either; it contradicts everything Krishnamurti said, not to mention common sense. Reactive capacity, simply by its existence, negates any possibility of being "guided by higher instances."
Everything that happens is a consequence of your own happening. In other words, nothing is "happening to you"—rather, you are the one happening to yourself. You might feel "guided," but the "flow" is what "guides" everything, and you are a vital part of that "flow." This flow has to follow certain norms, primarily moving along the path of least resistance... much like water flowing downhill. But within those inevitable norms, everything is temporary, subject to change and "free will." When we surrender to being "guided," we are actually always moving along that line of least resistance. If you get caught in a shipwreck or a sandstorm... that's the only sensible thing you can do. But where you can be part of the change and the happening, it is equally nonsensical to move along the line of least resistance... because the smallest possible resistance is death... and as I already emphasized... there will be plenty of "time" for that.
Quincy:| If you meditate naturally and spontaneously and if you have clarity of insight—then you know that in the universe, everything is always in perfect balance. Whether or not one meditates is optional, but a sure sign of spiritual maturity is being grounded in awareness, resulting in a steady mind that acts as a servant rather than a master of the internal space.... |
Projection can't possibly be a "sign of spiritual maturity"—in fact, that’s exactly what you’re doing right now. You're just projecting your own mental image of what "spiritual maturity" should look like—this idealized picture where someone stays perfectly composed and in control of everything. It’s from these exact kinds of mental constructs that humans have gone about creating a god "in their own image." Show me who is actually pulling your strings, and I'll show you how to break free from that "guidance."
I'm with you on that...
Quincy:
| Oh, come on now... since you brought it up... tell me, what exactly did you run into when you talk about all that darkness, death, horror, and those bizarre phenomena? |
It’s actually quite scary when you think about it—that deep, primal instinctual fear. It really is the root of everything; all our aggression and every other fear we experience basically stems from that one core source.
Fear of death.It’s really about that transition—breaking away from all those conceptual, intellectual, and deeply personal ideas to move toward a higher kind of silence that serves as the source of everything. This shift actually threatens every single one of our starting points. It tears down the entire structure we’ve built out of ego, thought patterns, interpretations, and beliefs—basically everything we constructed as children once we were taught language and given an identity through our upbringing. Eventually, everyone has to face this fear. Honestly, it’s just part of the mind's strategy to keep us trapped within familiar boundaries, preventing us from taking that leap into the non-conceptual. It’s a leap toward surrendering the individual self and finally breaking free from the grip of the ego's structure.
Quincy:
| In my opinion, chasing that raw physical sensation—that pure bliss—is going a bit overboard. It feels like you're just pleasure-seeking at that point. I’m not saying it’s "wrong" or inherently damaging, but honestly, you'll have all the time in the world to indulge in that once you're dead. At the end of the day, an experience should just be a tool to gain insight. People tend to label things, listen to the message, and then mistakenly believe the meaning lies within the message itself. You need to understand the message, sure, but then you really need to hang up the phone. |
Look, Shamantrix Shaman, I wasn't out there chasing bliss; it just sort of found me. Bliss is more of a byproduct than something you can set as a goal or a motive. I could certainly point you toward some pre-packaged answers from those enlightened masters about where bliss comes from, but in my experience, once you actually dive into the silence, that's when it greets you.
Quincy:
| I’ve been thinking about free will lately, and honestly, I think it’s actually a negative description. It doesn't really describe a specific "type" of will; instead, it just points to an absence of inevitability. If you lack any capacity for reaction, then everything is essentially inevitable for you. But as your ability to react grows, so does your degree of what we call "freedom"—which is really just the increasing absence of necessity. |
I see things a little differently. To me, the human condition is a paradox—we are essentially living out a duality, a constant split between being the wave and being the ocean all at once. Think about it: millions of biological processes are happening inside our bodies right now, running seamlessly, automatically, and in perfect sync without us ever having to lift a finger. From the perspective of the "ocean," everything is predetermined. But from the perspective of the "wave"—our individual selves—we are constantly making decisions, analyzing, choosing, and deciding which direction to head. I don't think free will is some kind of illusion. Instead, I feel that the will we experience within ourselves is actually the will of the divine. In the same way, the love we feel deep down is simply the love of the divine flowing through us.
Everything that unfolds is simply a consequence of your own unfolding. In other words, things aren't just happening *to* you; rather, you are the one happening to yourself. You might feel like you're being "guided," but it's really the "flow" that directs everything, and you are an essential part of that movement. This flow tends to follow certain patterns, primarily moving along the path of least resistance... much like water finding its way down a hill. Yet, within those inevitable patterns, everything is temporary, subject to change and "free will." When we surrender to being "guided," we are actually just following that path of least resistance. If you find yourself caught in a shipwreck or a sudden storm... doing so is the only sensible thing you can do. But there are moments where being part of the change and the unfolding is just as vital as following the easiest route... because the absolute minimum resistance is death... and as I've already pointed out... there will be plenty of "time" for that later.
I agree with you that "everything that unfolds is a consequence of my own unfolding" and that "the flow is what guides everything," but my take is slightly different. When we find our divine source—that center, that stillness—either through meditation or some stroke of crazy luck, we rest in that center without moving, simply existing. From that "position" (sorry, that’s a clumsy word choice, but I hope you get what I mean), a massive energy begins to move on the periphery, right where we exist as a wave rather than the entire ocean. That energy then manifests in life as love, compassion, or creativity… it can take many forms depending on whether it's directed toward the head or the heart. But first, you have to find the SOURCE, and once you do, it becomes the direct guidance for the wave.
This guidance happens spontaneously and unconsciously. When that center hasn't been found yet, it refers to that one magnetic force (which I believe all "spiritual seekers" recognize) that pulls us inward, clears a path before us, and leads us deeper and deeper until we are completely consumed. In that way, we are guided by the flow while simultaneously being both the flow and our own guide.
Projection can never be a "sign of spiritual maturity," and that is exactly what you are offering. You are projecting your own mental image of "spiritual maturity" where someone maintains composed mastery over something. It is precisely from these types of images that humans created God "in their own image." Show me who is guiding you, and I will set you free from that "guidance."
No, I didn't say that someone masters something; I said that the mind becomes a servant rather than the master of the inner space. Within that inner space, there is NO ONE there to be a master. The flow takes care of itself... So, in a paradoxical sense—there is no one to be guided, and in that sense, no such thing as guidance exists. That concept only exists if we speak like two separate waves... There you go, 🙂—the closer we get to the center, the more we drift into paradox and illogic...
