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The Iliad and The Odyssey in Spirituality · Jun 11, 2006

Eric Wells3 said:I have to point out how weird it is that whenever someone talks about ancient systems from India, it’s always exactly 5,000 years ago.😁 It’s never any more or any less! Isn't that a little suspicious?😕

That's because mainstream Western academic history—you know, the "official" version of science—basically refuses to look further back than 5,000 years. It would be absolutely terrifying for them to admit there might have been an advanced civilization living 12,000 years ago, right? Or even 80,000?

Soul and Spirit in Spirituality · Jun 6, 2006

Abraham Lincoln is the feminine mother-daughter wisdom of grace.

The bear and the deer are just little animals lost in the forest of ignorance....

Soul and Spirit in Spirituality · Jun 5, 2006

Jason Johnson4 said:The soul is an eternal spark—a flicker, a spring, and the ultimate destination of absolute consciousness and everlasting bliss.

I couldn't agree more! But tell me—do you see a distinction between the spark and the flame?
In my view, the soul isn't just a smaller version of God... it’s qualitatively different entirely.

Soul and Spirit in Spirituality · Jun 5, 2006

Karen Sanchez19 said:"consciousness" is a better term

True enough—but that specific wording fits my framework perfectly, whereas for you, it’s the only way to see it.

Karen Sanchez19 said:so what is God?😁

Karen Sanchez19, you aren't really listening to me.

But look, let me lay it out for you:
God is both the origin and the ultimate destination of an absolute consciousness existing in eternal bliss.

Karen Sanchez19 said:soul and consciousness are just concepts and words

Well, concepts and words are *just* concepts and words; but the soul and consciousness—those are indestructible truths.

Soul and Spirit in Spirituality · Jun 5, 2006

Karen Sanchez19 said:Nobody is actually right—it's all just mental "illusions"

It’s true that some minds lean into the illusion while others work to dismantle it.🙂

Karen Sanchez19 said:CONSCIOUSNESS IS

just all that soul and spirit nonsense and fluff

Good luck trying to "let go" of consciousness if you can manage it.😬

Most Eastern spiritual traditions suggest that the starting point is actually silencing the mind.
Most Americans hear that and think, "Well, what would I have left then?"😲

Karen Sanchez19 said:WHAT is a soul?

An eternal living spark of the flame of God.

Karen Sanchez19 said:perception ISN'T yours
"you" are nothing more than a thought..

That’s just your own thinking talking...

Karen Sanchez19 said:God knows nothing because God IS everything
you can only "know" things that are separate from yourself
God isn't "him"😉

None of that is right.

Karen Sanchez19 said:show me a SOUL if you can, show me God if you can

I’ll do that once you show me consciousness.😎

Karen Sanchez19 said:your "soul" is just a product of the mind—an image, not "something" real—just like how God is for believers

Quite the opposite.

Soul and Spirit in Spirituality · Jun 4, 2006

David Miller15 said:I honestly think it’s more about the fact that Karen Sanchez19 didn't even care enough to have an actual opinion

Poly—your music taste is just too clever for its own good; for you, I've got nothing but: 😘 😘 😘

Soul and Spirit in Spirituality · Jun 4, 2006

Karen Sanchez19 said:Honestly, I’m just feeling completely drained—I think I've finally hit a wall where I just can't deal with any more of this today.🤣

That’s simply because I’m right.😘

Karen Sanchez19 said:Where does truth actually exist when you’re drifting through that deep, dreamless sleep?😉

This is exactly what I’ve been getting at. If there isn't some form of consciousness or a functioning mind present during deep sleep—I mean, really think about it—how is it even possible for you to wake up feeling alive?
Because the soul is the true source of consciousness and life—and let's be honest, it’s something that never truly sleeps (unless creation itself eventually ceases to exist, perhaps).

When you finally wake up from that deep, heavy sleep—you know the kind where everything feels a bit fuzzy—try not to immediately start reloading all those old memories, impressions, and ego-driven projections back into your head. If you can manage to stay clear of that mental clutter for just a moment, you might actually remain grounded in your soul-consciousness. Or, if you’re more of an atheist, let's just call it staying centered in a "clear mind."

Karen Sanchez19 said:God can do nothing—and yet, He can do everything.

Karen Sanchez19—master theologian!🙂

Karen Sanchez19 As I was reading what was said— (I can't help but think about how much this reminds me of that one discussion we had last month regarding similar topics...) It really makes you wonder where we draw the line between personal conviction and shared understanding. It’s one of those things that feels simple on the surface, but once you start peeling back the layers, there’s so much nuance involved. I’ve always felt that when we approach these conversations, we should try to maintain that balance—staying grounded in our own perspectives while leaving enough room to actually hear what someone else is putting on the table. Anyway, I’m curious to see how everyone else interprets this. Is it as straightforward as it seems, or am I overthinking the whole thing?
I mean, honestly—God? It’s almost impossible to wrap your head around. If you look at it from a certain angle, God doesn't have perception in the way we understand it, because there’s nothing "outside" of Him to actually perceive. There isn't any external reality out there for Him to process.

I’m honestly not sure if this sentence can even be deciphered—it's a bit of a mess—but I can certainly give it a shot:

Everyone really ought to take a moment to sit down and ask themselves:
What exactly falls outside my perception?

God possesses absolute perception. Even if you aren't aware of every single thought drifting through your mind, God knows—every one of them. It’s also worth noting that the soul remains conscious of every subtle movement of the mind, the ego, and the intellect; though, unfortunately, that connection doesn't seem to work the other way around.
I definitely agree—our perception of God is limited, not the other way around. It’s just one of those fundamental truths, isn't it? We’re trying to grasp something infinite with finite minds, which is always going to be a bit of a struggle.

Karen Sanchez19 said:And at the same time, everything being perceived... it all just perceives that I AM.

That’s a great point! We established earlier that perception is essentially born from that interplay between the mind and our senses—and that this connection gets all muddied up by signals coming from the false ego. If we view perception as something subordinate to consciousness, it really makes you wonder: what exactly sits above consciousness?

Karen Sanchez19 said:It’s funny how people behave—no one would ever actually have the guts to tell them that the soul simply doesn't exist in their worldview. We spend all this time talking in circles, chasing these grand illusions based on nothing more than made-up concepts... honestly, we should just let it all go.
😁

Just let go of the illusion... Perception of the soul doesn't mean much to those who don't actually possess one; however, the soul exists regardless of perception, thought patterns, or any kind of illusion.
😉

Soul and Spirit in Spirituality · Jun 2, 2006

Karen Sanchez19 said:Thought is also an individual thing...
The world comes FROM consciousness—it's internal—regardless of what your physical senses might be picking up on the outside.

That’s a great point. I actually "think" of thought as being analogous to a mental image in psychology—kind of like the sense of
sight; thought is essentially a sort of mental sluggishness.

Karen Sanchez19 said:but it doesn't really matter if they have it or not😁
I assume they don't have a sense of... well, an ego... in them, where everything just happens naturally without an ego thinking "I am the one doing this."

What if animals—or at least large mammals—actually do possess an ego, a personality, thoughts, and intelligence? It isn't even necessary to prove it; the real issue is showing how people love to use this supposed distinction to claim humans are conscious beings while animals are somehow "lower."

Karen Sanchez19 said:everything you perceive is just a thought, because if it wasn't, you wouldn't be aware of it... if it doesn't "enter" thought, it doesn't exist...

I have to disagree there.

Karen Sanchez19 said:and if you aren't aware of it, it doesn't exist...

Are you truly aware of the entirety of existence? Something might not exist within the sphere of our perception, but that doesn't mean it isn't real in the grand scheme of things.
Human beings are limited by their perception because our senses are inherently limited. God, however, exists beyond that kind of duality; in other words, God could "see" with ears or "sing" with hands...

Karen Sanchez19 said:if a comet flies past your eyes, for example, it doesn't exist—you only hear the sound of "something"😁

Think about the analogy here: some people have their entire lives flash before their eyes, yet they've only ever heard whispers about the soul...

Soul and Spirit in Spirituality · Jun 2, 2006

"Quote:"

Karen Sanchez19 said:Consciousness really does shape your entire perception—it’s like you and that "self" which seems to be doing all the perceiving are both just deeply immersed in consciousness itself.😉

Exactly. It really makes you wonder—how is it that so many different individuals can be simultaneously aware of such wildly different perceptions?

Karen Sanchez19 said:Consciousness isn't just perception... it’s something much deeper than that.
Perception—it’s really just our internal thought process regarding whatever we happen to be perceiving at any given moment...
When there are thoughts, there’s also a world—and a "perception" to go along with it. It doesn't really matter if you're perceiving things from the outside looking in or processing them from deep within...

That’s a fair point. But if we're looking at perception—which animals definitely have—it really makes you wonder: do they actually have thoughts, too?

"Quote:"

Karen Sanchez19 said:Perception doesn't actually exist—not really. It’s just a continuous stream of thoughts passing through.
But honestly, that’s getting into some pretty deep territory—maybe a little too heavy to wrap our heads around right this second. Let's just set that aside for a later time when we're all feeling a bit more prepared.😁

I "think" perception might actually exist independently of our thoughts. But honestly, nothing in this thread is particularly easy to wrap your head around—actually, maybe nothing at all is. We can only really try to make sense of it all.

Karen Sanchez19 said:When you finally realize that you're actually realizing—that moment where you grasp the very nature of perception itself—that’s what I’d call "absolute realization." 😁

Once you finally realize who exactly is doing the realizing—well, that’s really where the true journey begins.🙂

Soul and Spirit in Spirituality · May 31, 2006

Karen Sanchez19 said:So, I went ahead and added that little icon—just in case you hadn't noticed it yet.😍
I wonder what would have happened if I’d gone with that smaller model instead—just a thought. 😘 In this case, that would basically mean you just gave me a pat on the back—or more accurately, a kiss on my ass.🤣 🤣

It’s either you or me...

Karen Sanchez19 said:No offense intended, but I hope you’re just joking around here... because if you aren't, then people are going to start taking it personally. 🤣

I'm not kidding around.

Karen Sanchez19 said:Consciousness doesn't just pop out of thin air—it’s got to come from somewhere, right?😁

That’s a beautiful way to put it—really hits home. Consciousness isn't something that's "born" into us; it’s already there, self-sustaining and infinitely eternal from the very start.

What could actually exist beyond consciousness? I’ve been sitting here wondering if self-awareness is the ceiling—or maybe just the starting line. (?)

Look, I don't want to dive too deep into this since we haven't really gone there yet—but think about it—consciousness itself actually hinges on how the observer perceives that consciousness. In other words, it isn't just "consciousness" doing the work; rather, perception is entirely dependent on the consciousness of the one being perceived, which then circles back to the consciousness of the perceiver. It’s a bit of a loop, isn't it? Heh.
Does that sound lame? Honestly, it really isn't.

It really comes down to how people perceive things—like, some folks can actually see people flying, while others just can't. The ones who have that vision don't look at someone mid-air and think they’re breaking the laws of nature; they just accept it. But the ones who lack that perception? They can't help but overthink it and judge.
Up until around the 17th century, you wouldn't really find any "miracles" in Tibet—instead, there were just these everyday, strange occurrences involving various Buddha incarnations.
At that same point in time—say, over in Thailand—there was only one Buddha, right? Just the historical Siddhartha Gautama. (?)

So, there’s this idea that there must be something existing beyond our conscious awareness—something sitting just above the level of mere perception. But what exactly is it? It's one of those deep, lingering questions that keeps you up at night, isn't it? Is it a higher plane of existence, or maybe just the vast, untapped depths of the subconscious? I'd love to hear everyone's take on this.

Karen Sanchez19 said:Wait, hold on—what exactly are we talking about here? Who or what is this "TKO" thing, and more importantly, what on earth could possibly cause a precipitate to absolutely assault the perception?! I feel like I missed a page of the manual or something.

Most people tend to just notice things in terms of opposites—like plus or minus, good versus evil, or peaks and valleys—without ever stopping to ask themselves the deeper question: who exactly is doing the perceiving? They see the duality, sure, but they miss the observer behind it all.
Then, at some point, certain people start to notice that underlying neutrality—and that's when they finally grasp the concept of the Trinity.
And so on...
So, even if we set aside the whole question of *who* exactly is doing the perceiving—it still holds true that there is an act of perception happening. There is a realization taking place.
Maybe the famous Descartes was just mistranslated all along. (?)

I am getting to know myself; therefore, I exist.

Karen Sanchez19 said:When it comes to true insight—that deep, soul-level realization—there really isn't a rulebook or a set recipe you can just follow to get results. It’s not like following a manual for assembling furniture or a strict diet plan; you can't just check off boxes and expect enlightenment to show up at your door. It’s much more fluid than that. ☕😁

That’s exactly why these rules and recipes feel so linear—they're essentially just mental frameworks used to navigate one's own subconscious awareness.
In other words, there are these structured guidelines and mental shortcuts designed to help us grasp geometric patterns and cognitive abilities.
😛 😉

Soul and Spirit in Spirituality · May 31, 2006

Karen Sanchez19 said:you're talking nonsense again

Whoa, watch how you word things—some of those comments are landing a bit sideways.

Karen Sanchez19 said:enlightenment is an act of doing, and every single act of change is LIMITED😉
for enlightenment, you need awareness... and no single observation can ever contain the ABSOLUTE

Enlightenment through the actions of which organ, Karen Sanchez19?
And where does consciousness actually originate?

The Absolute fits within absolute observation—which, by definition, lies beyond the reach of the mind and the ego.

Karen Sanchez19 said:and you think you're just going to realize some new set of rules

Aside from the fact that you're gaining insight right here on this forum... what "rules" are you even following?😘

Soul and Spirit in Spirituality · May 31, 2006

Karen Sanchez19 said:everything I'm saying here is just some blown-out pattern😁

WHO IS THIS "WHO" THAT PERCEIVES!!!!!

and how is it even POSSIBLE to perceive God if He is ABSOLUTE😉 😉

So, who exactly is the one doing the perceiving?

First off—Karen Sanchez19—you really have to ask yourself: what is the actual instrument of perception?

Let’s look at something basic—we determine if an object is hard or soft through the sense of touch.
It shows us right away that this specific instrument of perception is inherently limited.

So then, what is the infinite—what can actually perceive the infinite?

How can one possibly know God if He is absolute?

Well, through absolute perception, Karen Sanchez19.

What are the methods for perceiving the absolute?

Now, those are the right questions to be asking.

It isn't philosophy—because, let's be honest, philosophy is bound by rules that nobody actually follows anyway.
It isn't religion—since religion is bound by "non-rules" that everyone feels obligated to stick to.

That leaves us with theurgy or theosophy.

Soul and Spirit in Spirituality · May 31, 2006

(About 340 words on the topic; while you all wander off into stories about sin—I really have to keep repeating myself here🙂 )

The soul is the instrument used to perceive the soul.
Once the soul is perceived, it becomes the instrument to perceive the Spirit.
And the perception of both Spirit and Soul is the instrument through which we perceive God.

What is impossible for the mind (since it can't perceive anything without a physical form), for intelligence (which struggles to assign itself an unsolvable task—though, perhaps, it can?), or for the body
(you can't use your hand to see your own eye), is exactly how it works for spiritual phenomena:

only the soul can truly know the soul.

A human being is composed of the mind, the senses, and the body.
These three are tightly intertwined. The theory and practice behind yoga (much like how prayer functions in certain traditions) suggests this: by controlling the body and the breath—through things like asana and pranayama—we gain control over the mind.
Whoever masters the mind, masters the senses.
To reiterate:
If you can consciously control your breath, you can consciously control your mind.
Only once the mind—which is naturally restless and prone to wandering—is brought under control, and when the senses and body stop creating "noise" in the signal, can one become aware of the existence of the soul.

The mind, intelligence, the ego, and the false self simply lack the capacity to perceive the soul.
Fleeting emotions, passing thoughts, and desires have absolutely nothing to do with the true nature of the Soul.

The soul is perpetually filled with the knowledge of eternal bliss.

Which is why, in our language, we are able to say:

"That soul is inspired by the divine spirit."
or
"That soul is animated by God."

The soul is not an energetic body. It doesn't stem from the mind. And God is certainly not a product of the soul.
Anyone who rejects the pursuit of knowing the soul will find themselves incapable of knowing the spirit or God.

The various forms of material manifestation are merely reflections of the mind, which projects those reflections based on sensory input and experience.

Everything—as a concept representing the collection of illusions within material reality—originates in the mind.

Truth is that which remains eternally constant, regardless of the circumstances.
Why is it that for materialists or atheists, it’s so easy to accept the existence of thought, the ego, or personality? Where is the evidence for these things? Who has ever actually *seen* a mind, an intelligence, or a "Self"?

So, it would be only logical to ask: if these phenomena exist, could there be other phenomena that aren't directly visible?

Generally speaking, we say a person consists of the mind, intelligence, ego, senses, and emotions. Because each of these elements is preoccupied with its own specific function, they cannot perceive the oneness of the soul. All of these things act as a material mirror reflecting the soul.

In reality, the interaction between the soul, the spirit, and God is the hardest thing to grasp. Even angels don't quite wrap their heads around it.

Soul and Spirit in Spirituality · May 29, 2006

Karen Sanchez19 said:I mean, sure...
but I’d argue that theories about the spirit or the soul are just abstract concepts—where is the actual truth in any of that?

To me, truth is whatever remains constant, regardless of how much the world shifts around us.
Think about it—how is it that materialists or atheists find it so effortless to accept things like thought, the ego, or personality? Where is the physical proof for those phenomena? Has anyone ever actually *seen* a mind, or intelligence, or the "Self"?

That’s why I think it’s worth asking: if these things exist, then shouldn't we also consider other phenomena that aren't directly visible?

The general consensus is that a human being is made up of the mind, intelligence, the ego, senses, and emotions. But because each of these elements is so busy performing its own specific function, I find it impossible to perceive the soul as a single unit. All these different layers are really just the material reflections of the soul.

Honestly, trying to wrap your head around the interaction between the soul, the spirit, and God is probably the hardest thing to grasp—even angels struggle to fully make sense of it.

Soul and Spirit in Spirituality · May 28, 2006

grizli said:The real question is—are you a truth seeker? I mean, truly?

Truth is all there is, really; but who can actually claim to be hunting it down?🙂

grizli said:Everything stems from the mind.😉

All those different material things we see—they're just reflections created by the mind, based on what our senses pick up and what we experience.

Even "everything" itself—as a concept used to group all these material illusions together—it all starts within the mind.

grizli said:...but WHO is actually in control?😉

I don't think it's about control, per se—it's more about moving away from being uncontrolled.

Soul and Spirit in Spirituality · May 27, 2006

Dragos Dragos said:Yeah, what about me—as in, WHO AM I?

It’s just a thought... like any other thought regarding "self," or rather, individuality.

But when you ask the question, WHO AM I?, the answer would be: (even if that answer itself is just a WORD and not the essence) I AM.

That’s from one's own perspective... now, if you want to get into an argument, you could say the soul is an energetic body and so on and so forth... but that explains NOTHING.
Those are just superficial explanations up there.😉

Heh, here’s where things get a little twisted... I don't know if this way of putting it will make sense to you.

The classic wrong approach: viewing the soul as some sort of energetic entity—which is basically the same thing as claiming the brain creates consciousness (that version just sounds a bit more "scientific").
You NEED to look FROM YOURSELF, from your own standpoint.

BECAUSE: everything you see—the material, the immaterial, all those thoughts—comes from within, from your mind, from YOU!
And that applies to this physical world too, as well as the concept of the soul and everything else...

Your entire individuality, your whole thought process, everything you imagine, see, or feel, comes from WITHIN...
That's how I'd put it—it comes ONLY FROM SELF...

Since EVERYTHING "floats" within consciousness, and your little individual self—which asks so many questions about differences and relationships—is itself a thought... as are thoughts of God, the absolute, or the spirit moving toward the soul...
including this very thought and this text right here...
Since it's LIKE THAT, the truth—the "absolute"—can't really be understood, grasped, or reached.

As long as there is a QUESTION, there is UNREST.😉 When you DON'T ASK (meaning, when there are no questions), answers aren't needed.
In other words, you CAN'T answer this question responsibly.

Dear Dragos, since you’re being so kind as to stick with this discourse after changing the rules of the game yourself (you can't debate something that doesn't exist, right?);
I'll allow the conversation to flow freely, by your grace:

A person is composed of the mind, the senses, and the body.
These three are inextricably linked. The theory and practice of yoga (much like Islamic prayer functions as yoga) goes like this: by controlling the body and the breath (asana and pranayama), we control the mind.
Whoever controls the mind, controls the senses.
To reiterate:
Whoever consciously controls their breath can consciously control their mind.
Only when the mind—which is always free and wandering—is under control—that is, when the senses and the body no longer interfere with the signal—can one become aware of the existence of the soul.

The mind, intelligence, the ego, and the false Self have no capacity to perceive the soul.
Various feelings, thoughts, and desires have absolutely nothing to do with the true nature of the Soul.

The Soul is always filled with knowledge of eternal bliss.

Which is why, in our language, we can say:

(That) Soul is inspired by the divine spirit.
Or
(That) Soul is animated by God.

The Soul is not an energetic body. The Soul does not originate from the mind. God is not a product of the Soul.
A person who renounces the realization of the soul is incapable of realizing the spirit or God.

Soul and Spirit in Spirituality · May 27, 2006

blue bird said:Lightning doesn't come from Zeus!

You just can't find spiritual insight through a purely material lens.

Besides, there isn't a shred of proof that lightning *doesn't* come from Zeus! 🙂

Soul and Spirit in Spirituality · May 27, 2006

John, Fox News, Aretha Franklin, Sitting Bull; grizzly;

I've got a few questions floating around my head that have been weighing on me lately.

First off—if there actually is an "I" (but how can we ever truly prove that "I" exists?), is that "I" essentially the Soul?
How does one go about experiencing the soul? What kind of instrument is capable of recognizing it?
Is it the ego? Or maybe just intelligence?

To be clear, we're talking about spiritual matters here. And this isn't philosophy—philosophy usually relies on rules that nobody actually follows anyway.
If the theology itself is flawed, where does that leave us? These are the fundamentals, I'm telling you.🙂

Second question:
If the soul exists (and how would a soul even know it *is* a soul?), how do we tell it apart from the spirit or God? Can the soul distinguish its own essence from other souls, from the spirit, or from God?

In any narrative, we have to start with established concepts; otherwise, we’re just making up our own definitions as we go along.

Let's say our starting points are consciousness and energy.
In that framework, the Soul would be the source of consciousness, while the Spirit would be the source of energy. And then God would exist beyond all that—completely independent of both consciousness and energy.

Reading from an American theological textbook, we see this:
God is God.

Which basically means that God is guilty of being a tautology.
But it’s not just a tautology; paradox is also responsible for the following logic:

The soul is the instrument used to perceive the soul.
A perceived soul is the instrument used to perceive the Spirit.
And the perception of both the Spirit and the Soul is the instrument used to perceive God.

What is impossible for the mind (since it can't perceive anything without some sort of form), for intelligence (which struggles to assign itself an unsolvable task—or can it?), and for the physical body
(you can't use your hand to see your own eye), applies to spiritual phenomena too, plain and simple:

Only the soul can truly perceive the soul.

Some souls get lost in that loop. Some souls find inspiration. Some become spiritualized. And some are Divine.

Do you see now why this isn't really about having a debate?

Soul and Spirit in Spirituality · May 27, 2006

Sitting Bull said:Where exactly?

Think of Bill Gates, Spirit, and the Soul as three distinct manifestations within the spiritual realm.

...

From a purely spiritual perspective—they really are one and the same—but there are certainly nuances to how they differ.

Soul and Spirit in Spirituality · May 26, 2006

Sitting Bull said:Bill Gates/Self/The Absolute is ONE.

Of course—if you actually took the time to read, you'd see I already mentioned that right at the beginning.🙂