Jose Ramirez36 said:
My focus here was intended to address more subtle issues—the kind of problems that don't quite qualify as "crimes," yet can still trigger immense stress, drive people apart, or lead to fractured relationships (all of which can stem from an inability to forgive or, conversely, from being too subservient to a bruised ego). In this light, I find myself at odds with Mr. Voltaire.
When discussing more heinous crimes, I am not necessarily asserting that Voltaire is correct, but such cases certainly invite a much deeper discussion.
Alright, fine, because based on what you just said—that "it’s not their fault, it’s just their environment"—it sounds like you're basically arguing that nobody is actually responsible for their own actions.
I’d really like to emphasize the word "responsibility" here, rather than "guilt."
Personal responsibility isn't some level playing field. It’s impossible to compare someone who grew up surrounded by trauma and toxic motives to someone raised in a healthy, spiritually grounded environment where they were actually taught values like empathy and tolerance. I know I'm just looking at two extremes here, but the point still stands. At the start, we all begin on level ground—just humans with the exact same baseline potential. We try our best to live by values like love, tolerance, empathy, and understanding, genuinely believing they're worth cultivating within ourselves—but let’s be real, the environment we grow up in and the way we're raised inevitably corrupt those ideals, more or less, as we evolve.
I honestly think personal responsibility kicks in somewhere around that same age for everyone—roughly at the same time, regardless of how you were raised or what kind of environment you grew up in.
The moment we actually realize that our actions carry consequences, that’s when we finally become responsible for every single choice we make.
People who grew up in toxic environments or just never had the right upbringing tend to lack basic empathy—it’s like they aren't even capable of taking responsibility for their own actions.
Even if you strip away their humanity, they still know exactly what they're doing and the fallout they'll cause. At the end of the day, it's their own choice.
I honestly believe our primary responsibility lies in the environment we build and the legacy we leave behind for those following us, specifically through how we shape and raise the next generation.
You’re talking about being responsible for others, but I was actually asking about personal accountability. People lean on their circumstances way too often just to dodge the consequences of their own mistakes or bad behavior.
I guess you could say this doesn't have much to do with forgiveness, but still...
What does it actually mean to forgive?
Is the ultimate goal really just to make yourself feel good?
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Look, I’ll put it this way... instead of constantly talking about forgiveness, maybe we should focus on mindfulness—both toward ourselves and everyone else. It's more about actually accepting and understanding why people mess up in the first place.
To me, the word "forgiveness" just feels like a polite way of saying you're discarding someone—like you're erasing them or just canceling out what happened entirely. Personally, I’ve never been able to stomach that kind of logic.
I don't buy this whole idea of having sins wiped clean. You can't just erase them; you have to live with them, whether they're your own messes or someone else's. I think true peace comes from finding a way to carry that weight, not from pretending it never happened.
This thread was always more about those smaller, nagging issues—the kind that don't quite reach the level of actual crimes but still mess with your head. We’re talking about things that trigger stress, drive people apart, and leave relationships a total wreck, usually because someone's nursing a bruised ego instead of just practicing a little forgiveness. In that sense, I have to say I disagree with Voltaire.
When it comes to the most heinous crimes, I’m still not saying Voltaire is absolutely right, but there is definitely some room for debate in those kinds of situations.
It’s honestly ridiculous how people take Voltaire's words and use them to justify some of the most heinous crimes you can imagine.
If you look at things through a slightly more flexible lens, isn't every single action that ultimately triggers stress... a "crime"? 🤷
The way I see it, he’s basically saying that if you close your eyes, you're just clearing the path for more "crimes" to happen.
On this particular point, I find myself in agreement with you. "Forgiveness" might indeed be the imprecise term here, though acceptance and understanding are likely the essential first steps on the road toward it. To begin, one must attempt to understand (and accept), and then—depending entirely upon the circumstances of the "offense"—forgiveness either follows or it does not.
Consider, for instance, a scenario where Person A harms Person B. Person B might reach a level of understanding, yet if that "offense" is a recurring pattern, the likelihood of Person A being forgiven remains slim. Conversely, should Person A express genuine remorse, the probability of Person B granting forgiveness increases. In both instances, an offense occurred and understanding was sought, but the ultimate outcome of forgiveness remained contingent upon specific variables—variables that shift with every situation and depend heavily on the nature of the relationship itself—meaning we could likely debate this indefinitely without ever arriving at some universal formula or rule.
Ultimately, a more fitting title for this discussion might have been "Forgiveness vs. Understanding vs. Ego," but I suppose understanding and acceptance are so intrinsically linked to forgiveness that there was little sense in listing them separately.
Hmm, I think you're mostly right. Accepting someone isn't necessarily the same thing as forgiving them, but sometimes avoiding a fight—letting go of the ego—is just smarter if fighting is going to be counterproductive. It makes me think of a Warrior of the Light, someone who doesn't waste energy on every single skirmish, but instead weighs where it’s worth fighting and where it’s better to just stay quiet. That leaves me wondering: are there times when letting the ego take over is actually productive? I'd love to hear what you guys think.
Take a scenario where Person A hurts Person B. Person B might understand why it happened, but if Person A keeps pulling the same stunt over and over, chances are they won't be forgiven. On the flip side, if Person A actually owns up and says they're sorry, the odds of being forgiven shoot way up. In both cases, the hurt happened and there was understanding involved, but forgiveness itself depends on the specifics of the situation—which change every time depending on the relationship. We probably couldn't find a universal rule for it even if we sat here arguing forever.
Spot on. In that first scenario, Person A is being insensitive and repeating the same mistakes—so forgiveness is tough, though not impossible. In that case, forgiveness is more of a passive way to protect yourself from being swallowed by negative emotions, even if you aren't actively reacting to Person A. It's basically forgiving through distancing, just to maintain some emotional sanity.
In the second (nicer) version, Person A realizes they messed up, forgiveness happens naturally, and it clears the path for mutual respect and understanding—real potential for a solid friendship or relationship.
Is there anything you absolutely cannot forgive, and why? Do we actually gain anything by holding onto a grudge? Have any of you ever been vengeful? Does revenge actually make sense in certain situations?
p.s. As this conversation goes on, it's becoming pretty obvious that it's not just about forgiving, but also about actually saying the words, "I forgive you."