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Forgiveness vs. Ego: How do you let go?

Started by Jose Ramirez36 · · 👁 5 views · 73 replies

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Participants Jose Ramirez36jademarlin26wiredjackal4Austin RuizThomas Garcia71steelranger96Rachel Cruz11Lawrence Bailey77Sam Hayesshadownomad13wearyowl29Sandra Parker3AFrank Williams7hiddenhound3dustyraven26Drew Flores3Brenda Adams2Sarah WellsPeter Phillips32Kenneth Parker15Thomas Davis6wearyhawk83vividtinker17 …
Jose Ramirez36 Jose Ramirez36 NewcomerOP
8 messages
joined Jan 2011
#1 ·
Lately—well, perhaps "lately" is an understatement, as this has been weighing on me for quite some time now—I have found myself feeling rather stressed. It has led me to wonder: is the fault lying with my environment, or is it simply my own internal reaction to the circumstances that trigger this tension?

It brings to mind a specific period during my high school years—a stretch of several months where I had adopted what one might call an almost relentlessly positive outlook. Back then, I held the conviction that people were fundamentally good at their core; that love, empathy, tolerance, and understanding ought to take precedence over the ego. By this, of course, I am referring primarily to our interpersonal connections. If a conflict arose, or if someone should happen to offend me—whether by design or mere accident—I would simply forgive them in that very moment and let it go.

Over time, however, I drifted away from that mindset toward something more... conventional—a state where the ego plays a far more prominent role. I didn't even notice the transition; I certainly didn't give it much thought at the time. Now, looking back after all these years, it seems to me that during that phase of constant forgiveness, I was significantly more carefree and composed. I moved through a larger social circle, and there was a certain pervasive positivity within my own mind.

One might argue that forgiveness is merely an escape from reality, given that it doesn't actually rectify the external event that caused the initial sting—that bruise to the ego, as it were. But then again, does that truly matter if the act of forgiving allows the individual to feel better and more optimistic? At least, that was certainly my experience when I lived by that particular philosophy.

I find myself curious about how others approach this. Do you weigh your relationships and friendships based on a sense of equilibrium—feeling that both parties must receive an equal measure of benefit? Or is that less important to you than minimizing the sensitivity of your ego and simply forgiving whatever causes friction?
jademarlin26 jademarlin26 Active Member
158 messages
joined Sep 2008
#2 ·
Jose Ramirez36 said:Lately—well, perhaps "lately" is an understatement, as this has been weighing on me for quite some time now—I have found myself feeling rather stressed. It has led me to wonder: is the fault lying with my environment, or is it simply my own internal reaction to the circumstances that trigger this tension?

It brings to mind a specific period during my high school years—a stretch of several months where I had adopted what one might call an almost relentlessly positive outlook. Back then, I held the conviction that people were fundamentally good at their core; that love, empathy, tolerance, and understanding ought to take precedence over the ego. By this, of course, I am referring primarily to our interpersonal connections. If a conflict arose, or if someone should happen to offend me—whether by design or mere accident—I would simply forgive them in that very moment and let it go.

Over time, however, I drifted away from that mindset toward something more... conventional—a state where the ego plays a far more prominent role. I didn't even notice the transition; I certainly didn't give it much thought at the time. Now, looking back after all these years, it seems to me that during that phase of constant forgiveness, I was significantly more carefree and composed. I moved through a larger social circle, and there was a certain pervasive positivity within my own mind.

One might argue that forgiveness is merely an escape from reality, given that it doesn't actually rectify the external event that caused the initial sting—that bruise to the ego, as it were. But then again, does that truly matter if the act of forgiving allows the individual to feel better and more optimistic? At least, that was certainly my experience when I lived by that particular philosophy.

I find myself curious about how others approach this. Do you weigh your relationships and friendships based on a sense of equilibrium—feeling that both parties must receive an equal measure of benefit? Or is that less important to you than minimizing the sensitivity of your ego and simply forgiving whatever causes friction?

Since there is no scale to weigh emotional investment, it is best not to dwell on it. One shouldn't exhaust themselves over trivialities by obsessing over whether a relationship is perfectly balanced. If it works for you, fine. If it doesn't, move on. Perhaps you will eventually stumble upon a connection that requires no compromise at all.
wiredjackal4 wiredjackal4 Newcomer
5 messages
joined Dec 2010
#3 ·
Petty grievances.
Jose Ramirez36 Jose Ramirez36 NewcomerOP
8 messages
joined Jan 2011
#4 ·
It really depends on how sensitive an individual happens to be—one's own temperament is such a fickle thing, isn't it?—but regardless, I appreciate the input. It suggests to me that the core issue lies more within my own perception of my surroundings than in the actual events occurring around me; in other words, the friction isn't coming from the world itself, but from my own reaction to it.
Austin Ruiz Austin Ruiz Newcomer
2 messages
joined Jan 2011
#5 ·
I’ve been asking myself that very same question lately—and honestly, there is a certain beauty, at least in the short term, to creating that little bubble of positivity and forgiveness.
However... (though we all knew that 😉 was coming), sweeping things under the rug isn't the same thing as actually building self-confidence. In fact, I suspect that bubble is destined to burst eventually—you simply cannot outrun your own feelings forever.
The reality is that true self-work is grueling—perhaps the hardest task of all—which is why so many of us gravitate toward the easier way out.

Based on what you’ve shared, it seems we’re wrestling with much the same issue, though I don't believe there's a simple mathematical formula to solve it. It’s about finding that delicate equilibrium between our internal needs and external pressures—balancing what we ought to want with what we are actually capable of receiving in the moment. That is where true contentment resides. 😉
Thomas Garcia71 Thomas Garcia71 Member
14 messages
joined Jul 2010
#6 ·
Then it hit me... I remember back in high school, there was this stretch of a few months where I’d totally adopted these super positive habits and just a different way of looking at everything around me. Back then, I really believed people were inherently good at their core... you know? That love, compassion, tolerance, and empathy should always win out over the ego. Mostly thinking about how we deal with each other, obviously. If any drama popped up, or if someone bumped into me or said something rude—whether they meant to or not—I’d just forgive them right then and there and let it go...

I was just surrounded by a lot of good people, and honestly, my headspace was just full of positivity.

That’s actually how I feel right now, and it works for me. When you step back and look at the big picture, there's just no point in picking fights over every little thing or holding grudges against everyone... You've gotta live your life the best way you can, focusing on your own peace and staying positive and stuff like that.

Even with the people I wouldn't want to run into ever again, or people I wouldn't even suggest meeting to anyone else... I don't hold it against them. I don't carry around this heavy resentment or anything... they aren't the cause of all the world's problems, so you just have to move on.

So yeah, that's where I'm at. I try to forgive everyone and just keep moving forward. I weigh out those moments of conflict really carefully, and they happen pretty rarely... having a clear conscience is such a beautiful thing.
steelranger96 steelranger96 Newcomer
2 messages
joined Jan 2011
#7 ·
Jose Ramirez36 said:Lately—well, perhaps "lately" is an understatement, as this has been weighing on me for quite some time now—I have found myself feeling rather stressed. It has led me to wonder: is the fault lying with my environment, or is it simply my own internal reaction to the circumstances that trigger this tension?

It brings to mind a specific period during my high school years—a stretch of several months where I had adopted what one might call an almost relentlessly positive outlook. Back then, I held the conviction that people were fundamentally good at their core; that love, empathy, tolerance, and understanding ought to take precedence over the ego. By this, of course, I am referring primarily to our interpersonal connections. If a conflict arose, or if someone should happen to offend me—whether by design or mere accident—I would simply forgive them in that very moment and let it go.

Over time, however, I drifted away from that mindset toward something more... conventional—a state where the ego plays a far more prominent role. I didn't even notice the transition; I certainly didn't give it much thought at the time. Now, looking back after all these years, it seems to me that during that phase of constant forgiveness, I was significantly more carefree and composed. I moved through a larger social circle, and there was a certain pervasive positivity within my own mind.

One might argue that forgiveness is merely an escape from reality, given that it doesn't actually rectify the external event that caused the initial sting—that bruise to the ego, as it were. But then again, does that truly matter if the act of forgiving allows the individual to feel better and more optimistic? At least, that was certainly my experience when I lived by that particular philosophy.

I find myself curious about how others approach this. Do you weigh your relationships and friendships based on a sense of equilibrium—feeling that both parties must receive an equal measure of benefit? Or is that less important to you than minimizing the sensitivity of your ego and simply forgiving whatever causes friction?


Thomas Garcia71 said:
Then it hit me... I remember back in high school, there was this stretch of a few months where I’d totally adopted these super positive habits and just a different way of looking at everything around me. Back then, I really believed people were inherently good at their core... you know? That love, compassion, tolerance, and empathy should always win out over the ego. Mostly thinking about how we deal with each other, obviously. If any drama popped up, or if someone bumped into me or said something rude—whether they meant to or not—I’d just forgive them right then and there and let it go...

I was just surrounded by a lot of good people, and honestly, my headspace was just full of positivity.

That’s actually how I feel right now, and it works for me. When you step back and look at the big picture, there's just no point in picking fights over every little thing or holding grudges against everyone... You've gotta live your life the best way you can, focusing on your own peace and staying positive and stuff like that.

Even with the people I wouldn't want to run into ever again, or people I wouldn't even suggest meeting to anyone else... I don't hold it against them. I don't carry around this heavy resentment or anything... they aren't the cause of all the world's problems, so you just have to move on.

So yeah, that's where I'm at. I try to forgive everyone and just keep moving forward. I weigh out those moments of conflict really carefully, and they happen pretty rarely... having a clear conscience is such a beautiful thing.

Great topic, and some really interesting thoughts here...

We all go through this daily, really... the only difference is how aware we are of our own ego's deceptions—those illusions our perception relies on, which the ego creates to "protect" itself from perceived slights. In reality, those slights are just cracks that allow a person to enter their Spirit, into the realm of God. Forgiveness is the hardest, yet most effective way to escape not the problem itself, but the ego that manufactures the problem in the first place. If we're dealing with a heavy conflict or an injustice, it's still wise to forgive, because the person we think caused us pain is actually causing harm to themselves, driven by their own egoic judgments... it just reflects back onto us. Thus, the illusion only becomes reality once we experience it as such.
When we are ruled by the ego, we judge the world solely through our own narrow lenses. Exclusivity and narrow-mindedness are the cancers of any relationship or communication, and ultimately, they stunt our spiritual growth... because it's through our connections with others that we truly progress, being "tested" and growing, rather than staying isolated within our own four walls.🤷



Various thoughts on forgiveness:

"When I hate, I deprive myself of something; when I love, I become richer for what I love. Forgiveness is the reclaiming of alienated property—misanthropy is merely extended suicide; egoism is the greatest misery of a creature."
Friedrich von Schiller

"One should forgive enemies incessantly, for that is precisely what irritates them most."
Oscar Wilde

"Always forgive others, but never yourself."
Seneca

"True healing only begins once we find the strength to forgive those who hurt us most."
Alan Paton

''To err is human; to forgive, divine.''
An old proverb

"A woman might overlook a man's darkest vices, but she will never forgive another woman, even for her greatest virtues."
Jovan Dučić

"When women love us, they'll excuse anything—even our crimes. But when that love fades, nothing is excusable anymore. Not even our best qualities."
Honoré de Balzac

"A person is never more beautiful than in the moment they are begging for forgiveness, or when they are the ones granting it."
Jean Paul

"There is nothing quite as degrading as loving someone so much that you actually find it in you to forgive them."
Jerry Hall


On the nature of the ego:

''Society constructs the ego because an ego is something that can be managed and steered. You can manipulate an ego. But the true Self? That’s impossible to control. No one has ever managed to bend the actual Self to their will—it just can't be done.
...
The ego is constantly hunting for drama. Why? Because without attention, the ego starves. It feeds on being noticed.
That’s why even a heated argument or a fight is somehow 'good' for it; at least people are looking at you. If someone loves you, fine. If they don't, even being hated or yelled at is better than being ignored. As long as the attention is flowing, the ego stays fed. But if you’re invisible—if nobody thinks you matter or hold any weight—how is the ego supposed to survive? It craves that external validation.
...
Don't mistake the ego for your identity. It isn't yours. The ego is a social construct—it belongs to the collective, not the individual. It exists to give you a slot in the social ladder, a little rank to cling to. If you get too comfortable playing that role, you'll completely miss the chance to discover your true Self. And that's where the misery starts. How can you find real happiness living a scripted, plastic life? How can you feel genuine bliss when everything is a facade? This ego creates endless layers of suffering. Honestly, the ego is a living hell.
...
And here's the thing: there is no way to just 'drop' the ego. It’s not that simple.
If you try to force it away, you’ll just end up creating a more sophisticated, sneaky version of it—one that whispers, "Look at how humble I've become."
Don't fall for that trap. Trying to act humble is just the ego wearing a mask... it hasn't actually died.
Stop trying to be humble.
You can't manufacture humility through sheer willpower. No one can. Real humility isn't something you build; it happens naturally when the ego finally clears out of the way. It’s not a performance; it’s just the shadow cast by your true center.
A truly humble person doesn't go around thinking about how humble they are, nor do they act superior.
They are simply... simple.
They aren't even conscious of their own modesty.
Because the moment you realize, "Oh, I'm being so humble right now," the ego has already moved back in.
Just look at all the people claiming to be humble... there are millions of them. They bow low and act submissive, but if you watch closely, they are actually the most subtle egoists you'll ever meet. For them, humility is just a new way to get fed. They announce their modesty just so they can sit there and wait for you to notice and praise them.
What is the ego, really? It’s just a hierarchy designed to say, "I am different, and I am above you."

It’s incredibly easy to spot everyone else's ego. But pointing fingers won't help anyone.
Instead, try looking inward.
Just observe your own ego.

from: ''Beyond the Frontier of the Mind'', Osho


Anyway, here is a lovely song that captures this perfectly.
Rachel Cruz11 Rachel Cruz11 Newcomer
3 messages
joined Oct 2010
#8 ·
Letting things go, staying indifferent... maintaining composure and peace. You shouldn't pay too much mind to other people's provocations or outbursts, because honestly, that’s just their way of hunting for attention and trying to act important.

I used to get angry, and I guess I just wasted so much energy that way. Now, I mostly just laugh at it all. Why so serious? 😉

Of course, you shouldn't let someone make a fool out of you... you just laugh. Maybe state your opinion calmly without getting heated, letting your arguments and the facts speak for themselves. There are always those people who think they are always right; when you run into individuals like that, just keep driving. It seems unnecessary to waste energy on someone who refuses to understand anything or anyone who shows zero interest in hearing a different perspective...
Lawrence Bailey77 Lawrence Bailey77 Regular
302 messages
joined Mar 2015
#9 ·
I haven't really read much lately...

It’s been nearly a year, and I suppose I've finally had this thought drift into my mind: maybe I should forgive the person who nearly killed me. To be honest, though, I feel hollow—dead, if I'm being perfectly candid, as if I'm standing on the very threshold of death itself.

For a fleeting second, just the mere thought of it made my heart flutter; I felt a tiny, sudden spark of goodness within myself, but I quickly cooled off.

The thing is, nobody has actually asked for my forgiveness, nor has anyone truly expressed any remorse.

I have come to the conclusion that it is simply part of the human condition to err. 👍

In any case, the final judgment belongs to a higher court. 👎
Sam Hayes Sam Hayes Active Member
97 messages
joined Mar 2011
#10 ·
I’ve come to realize that I don't actually understand what the word 'forgiveness' really means. In the past, I probably would have just called it making up with someone...
shadownomad13 shadownomad13 Newcomer
1 message
joined Jan 2011
#11 ·
A woman will always forgive a guy if he actually gave it a shot, but she’ll never let him live it down if he blew the chance she gave him.
Jose Ramirez36 Jose Ramirez36 NewcomerOP
8 messages
joined Jan 2011
#12 ·
Intriguing perspectives 🙂 Honestly, it is quite refreshing to see others who approach things through a similar lens—it would likely make for a far more beautiful world if more people could simply rein in their egos and carve out some mental space for forgiveness, whether directed at others or, perhaps more importantly, at themselves.

People are essentially products of their circumstances; they aren't inherently "bad," but rather shaped by the environments they were raised in—an environment where material progress is prioritized while spiritual growth is almost entirely neglected (which, if you ask me, is a much deeper systemic issue than the average person cares to realize)—combined with upbringing and various hardships that ultimately forge individuals incapable of seeing past their own self-interest. One shouldn't allow such people to cause harm; after all, they are actually battling much larger internal struggles than those capable of forgiving them, which serves as yet another reason to extend grace.

Thomas Garcia71 said:
Then it hit me... I remember back in high school, there was this stretch of a few months where I’d totally adopted these super positive habits and just a different way of looking at everything around me. Back then, I really believed people were inherently good at their core... you know? That love, compassion, tolerance, and empathy should always win out over the ego. Mostly thinking about how we deal with each other, obviously. If any drama popped up, or if someone bumped into me or said something rude—whether they meant to or not—I’d just forgive them right then and there and let it go...

I was just surrounded by a lot of good people, and honestly, my headspace was just full of positivity.

That’s actually how I feel right now, and it works for me. When you step back and look at the big picture, there's just no point in picking fights over every little thing or holding grudges against everyone... You've gotta live your life the best way you can, focusing on your own peace and staying positive and stuff like that.

Even with the people I wouldn't want to run into ever again, or people I wouldn't even suggest meeting to anyone else... I don't hold it against them. I don't carry around this heavy resentment or anything... they aren't the cause of all the world's problems, so you just have to move on.

So yeah, that's where I'm at. I try to forgive everyone and just keep moving forward. I weigh out those moments of conflict really carefully, and they happen pretty rarely... having a clear conscience is such a beautiful thing.

That’s the essence of it. I am not entirely sure how I drifted away from this mindset, but lately, I have begun returning to it, and in a very short span of time, I have already managed to rectify numerous mistakes made during the period when my ego held more sway over me. Once again, I feel at peace.

@ steelranger96 — Thank you for the interesting quotes. I find the one by Schiller particularly compelling. 🙂
wearyowl29 wearyowl29 Regular
715 messages
joined Feb 2014
#13 ·
Sam Hayes said:I’ve come to realize that I don't actually understand what the word 'forgiveness' really means. In the past, I probably would have just called it making up with someone...

See, making up implies you had a fight first...🤷
Sandra Parker3 Sandra Parker3 Regular
419 messages
joined Oct 2007
#14 ·
Jose Ramirez36 said:Intriguing perspectives 🙂 Honestly, it is quite refreshing to see others who approach things through a similar lens—it would likely make for a far more beautiful world if more people could simply rein in their egos and carve out some mental space for forgiveness, whether directed at others or, perhaps more importantly, at themselves.

People are essentially products of their circumstances; they aren't inherently "bad," but rather shaped by the environments they were raised in—an environment where material progress is prioritized while spiritual growth is almost entirely neglected (which, if you ask me, is a much deeper systemic issue than the average person cares to realize)—combined with upbringing and various hardships that ultimately forge individuals incapable of seeing past their own self-interest. One shouldn't allow such people to cause harm; after all, they are actually battling much larger internal struggles than those capable of forgiving them, which serves as yet another reason to extend grace.

That’s the essence of it. I am not entirely sure how I drifted away from this mindset, but lately, I have begun returning to it, and in a very short span of time, I have already managed to rectify numerous mistakes made during the period when my ego held more sway over me. Once again, I feel at peace.

@ steelranger96 — Thank you for the interesting quotes. I find the one by Schiller particularly compelling. 🙂

But where does personal responsibility actually kick in?

@ steelranger96 - Thanks for the interesting quotes. I'm particularly fond of the one by Schiller. 🙂

How about this one:

"He who forgives a crime becomes an accomplice to it."








Voltaire







Jose Ramirez36 Jose Ramirez36 NewcomerOP
8 messages
joined Jan 2011
#15 ·
Sandra Parker3 said:But where does personal responsibility actually kick in?

@ steelranger96 - Thanks for the interesting quotes. I'm particularly fond of the one by Schiller. 🙂

How about this one:

"He who forgives a crime becomes an accomplice to it."



Personal responsibility—well, it’s a matter of individual nuance, isn't it? It hinges upon the specific circumstances under which a person matures and evolves. One cannot reasonably expect the same level of accountability from someone raised in a traumatic environment—burdened by warped motives and distorted ideals—as one might from someone nurtured in a positive, spiritual atmosphere where values like empathy and tolerance were woven into their very foundation. I am merely presenting two extremes here, of course, but I maintain my belief that we all begin—as living, breathing human beings—with an equal predisposition toward embracing love, compassion, and understanding as virtues worth cultivating. However, our surroundings and our upbringing inevitably corrupt that potential to varying degrees during our development. Therefore, I would argue that our primary personal responsibility lies in the world we build for those who follow us—the environment we leave for future generations and the way we choose to shape them.

Sandra Parker3 said:But where does personal responsibility actually kick in?

@ steelranger96 - Thanks for the interesting quotes. I'm particularly fond of the one by Schiller. 🙂

How about this one:

"He who forgives a crime becomes an accomplice to it."



My focus here was intended to address more subtle issues—the kind of problems that don't quite qualify as "crimes," yet can still trigger immense stress, drive people apart, or lead to fractured relationships (all of which can stem from an inability to forgive or, conversely, from being too subservient to a bruised ego). In this light, I find myself at odds with Mr. Voltaire.

When discussing more heinous crimes, I am not necessarily asserting that Voltaire is correct, but such cases certainly invite a much deeper discussion.
A Anonymous Veteran
3.6K messages
joined May 2005
#16 ·
"Keep forgiving your enemies relentlessly, because nothing gets under their skin quite like that...!"
Or something to that effect.
My hero, Oscar Wilde.🙂
Me? I’m just a bit of a pushover who refuses to hold a grudge against anyone.
In my book, everything is forgiven right from the get-go.
The people out there who go out of their way to insult, hurt, or—God forbid—humiliate those around them aren't usually doing it on purpose. It's not some grand, calculated scheme.
It’s just their pathetic little defense mechanism, a way to survive while they struggle against this brutal, unforgiving world.
They lash out, they snap, and they strike at whoever happens to be standing nearby.
Honestly, it doesn't bother me. Most people are acting out of some version of that. I've grown used to it. It really doesn't phase me.
They can't touch me.
I won't let them get to me.
If anything, I find myself trying to comfort them and calm them down.
Kill them with kindness.
We all have the potential to be healers.
We can all choose to be compassionate.
Just lend a hand to your neighbor.
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Just one of my million thoughts... but I'm not losing any sleep over it.🙂
Frank Williams7 Frank Williams7 Member
46 messages
joined Jan 2011
#17 ·
And a truly humble person isn't playing at being humble or acting egoistic.
They’re just... simple.
They don't even realize they're doing it.
The second you start thinking, "Man, I'm pretty humble," the ego has already moved in.
Just look at people who claim to be humble. There are millions of them out there. They bow low, they act meek, but if you actually watch them, they’re some of the most subtle egoists you'll ever meet. Humility is just their fuel. They announce, "I'm so humble," while staring you down, waiting for you to give them a gold star for it.
So, what is ego? It's just a hierarchy in your head saying, "Nobody else measures up to me."

It’s incredibly easy to spot everyone else's ego. But that doesn't matter. You can't fix them.
Try looking at your own ego instead.
Just watch it happen.

Thanks for this, it's pure gold! 🙂 "He is simply simple..."I've actually run into one or two people like that in my life. 🙂

Forgiveness is definitely a release. I can think of two specific examples of nightmare bosses in high-level positions where I was stuck dealing with their malice without any way to pull away or set boundaries. One was particularly toxic—everyone who could avoid her did, and once I switched jobs, I heard she’d been suspended anyway. She was basically the embodiment of evil in a corporate suit. When it started getting to me, I felt trapped: either quit or do something about it. Instead, I told myself: 'Forget it. Whatever. I accept you exactly as you are.' Right then, at least half of my anxiety regarding her just evaporated. The rest became manageable, almost like by accepting her, I had stripped away all that negative energy she was trying to dump on me. She became irrelevant. And even though I was relieved to finally leave that job, she didn't get the satisfaction of hurting my other female colleagues the way she used to.

So yeah—I forgive myself and others in huge amounts, whenever I remember to do it. Good topic. 🙂
Sandra Parker3 Sandra Parker3 Regular
419 messages
joined Oct 2007
#18 ·
Jose Ramirez36 said:


Personal responsibility—well, it’s a matter of individual nuance, isn't it? It hinges upon the specific circumstances under which a person matures and evolves. One cannot reasonably expect the same level of accountability from someone raised in a traumatic environment—burdened by warped motives and distorted ideals—as one might from someone nurtured in a positive, spiritual atmosphere where values like empathy and tolerance were woven into their very foundation. I am merely presenting two extremes here, of course, but I maintain my belief that we all begin—as living, breathing human beings—with an equal predisposition toward embracing love, compassion, and understanding as virtues worth cultivating. However, our surroundings and our upbringing inevitably corrupt that potential to varying degrees during our development. Therefore, I would argue that our primary personal responsibility lies in the world we build for those who follow us—the environment we leave for future generations and the way we choose to shape them.

My focus here was intended to address more subtle issues—the kind of problems that don't quite qualify as "crimes," yet can still trigger immense stress, drive people apart, or lead to fractured relationships (all of which can stem from an inability to forgive or, conversely, from being too subservient to a bruised ego). In this light, I find myself at odds with Mr. Voltaire.

When discussing more heinous crimes, I am not necessarily asserting that Voltaire is correct, but such cases certainly invite a much deeper discussion.

Personal responsibility—well, it’s a matter of individual nuance, isn't it? It hinges upon the specific circumstances under which a person matures and evolves. One cannot reasonably expect the same level of accountability from someone raised in a traumatic environment—burdened by warped motives and distorted ideals—as one might from someone nurtured in a positive, spiritual atmosphere where values like empathy and tolerance were woven into their very foundation. I am merely presenting two extremes here, of course, but I maintain my belief that we all begin—as living, breathing human beings—with an equal predisposition toward embracing love, compassion, and understanding as virtues worth cultivating. However, our surroundings and our upbringing inevitably corrupt that potential to varying degrees during our development. Therefore, I would argue that our primary personal responsibility lies in the world we build for those who follow us—the environment we leave for future generations and the way we choose to shape them.

My focus here was intended to address more subtle issues—the kind of problems that don't quite qualify as "crimes," yet can still trigger immense stress, drive people apart, or lead to fractured relationships (all of which can stem from an inability to forgive or, conversely, from being too subservient to a bruised ego). In this light, I find myself at odds with Mr. Voltaire.

When discussing more heinous crimes, I am not necessarily asserting that Voltaire is correct, but such cases certainly invite a much deeper discussion.

My focus here was intended to address more subtle issues—the kind of problems that don't quite qualify as "crimes," yet can still trigger immense stress, drive people apart, or lead to fractured relationships (all of which can stem from an inability to forgive or, conversely, from being too subservient to a bruised ego). In this light, I find myself at odds with Mr. Voltaire.

When discussing more heinous crimes, I am not necessarily asserting that Voltaire is correct, but such cases certainly invite a much deeper discussion.
Alright, fine, because based on what you just said—that "it’s not their fault, it’s just their environment"—it sounds like you're basically arguing that nobody is actually responsible for their own actions.
I’d really like to emphasize the word "responsibility" here, rather than "guilt."

Personal responsibility isn't some level playing field. It’s impossible to compare someone who grew up surrounded by trauma and toxic motives to someone raised in a healthy, spiritually grounded environment where they were actually taught values like empathy and tolerance. I know I'm just looking at two extremes here, but the point still stands. At the start, we all begin on level ground—just humans with the exact same baseline potential. We try our best to live by values like love, tolerance, empathy, and understanding, genuinely believing they're worth cultivating within ourselves—but let’s be real, the environment we grow up in and the way we're raised inevitably corrupt those ideals, more or less, as we evolve.

I honestly think personal responsibility kicks in somewhere around that same age for everyone—roughly at the same time, regardless of how you were raised or what kind of environment you grew up in.

The moment we actually realize that our actions carry consequences, that’s when we finally become responsible for every single choice we make.

People who grew up in toxic environments or just never had the right upbringing tend to lack basic empathy—it’s like they aren't even capable of taking responsibility for their own actions.

Even if you strip away their humanity, they still know exactly what they're doing and the fallout they'll cause. At the end of the day, it's their own choice.

I honestly believe our primary responsibility lies in the environment we build and the legacy we leave behind for those following us, specifically through how we shape and raise the next generation.

You’re talking about being responsible for others, but I was actually asking about personal accountability. People lean on their circumstances way too often just to dodge the consequences of their own mistakes or bad behavior.

I guess you could say this doesn't have much to do with forgiveness, but still...
What does it actually mean to forgive?
Is the ultimate goal really just to make yourself feel good?
je

Look, I’ll put it this way... instead of constantly talking about forgiveness, maybe we should focus on mindfulness—both toward ourselves and everyone else. It's more about actually accepting and understanding why people mess up in the first place.
To me, the word "forgiveness" just feels like a polite way of saying you're discarding someone—like you're erasing them or just canceling out what happened entirely. Personally, I’ve never been able to stomach that kind of logic.
I don't buy this whole idea of having sins wiped clean. You can't just erase them; you have to live with them, whether they're your own messes or someone else's. I think true peace comes from finding a way to carry that weight, not from pretending it never happened.

This thread was always more about those smaller, nagging issues—the kind that don't quite reach the level of actual crimes but still mess with your head. We’re talking about things that trigger stress, drive people apart, and leave relationships a total wreck, usually because someone's nursing a bruised ego instead of just practicing a little forgiveness. In that sense, I have to say I disagree with Voltaire.

When it comes to the most heinous crimes, I’m still not saying Voltaire is absolutely right, but there is definitely some room for debate in those kinds of situations.

It’s honestly ridiculous how people take Voltaire's words and use them to justify some of the most heinous crimes you can imagine.
If you look at things through a slightly more flexible lens, isn't every single action that ultimately triggers stress... a "crime"? 🤷

The way I see it, he’s basically saying that if you close your eyes, you're just clearing the path for more "crimes" to happen.
Sandra Parker3 Sandra Parker3 Regular
419 messages
joined Oct 2007
#19 ·
Anonymous said:"Keep forgiving your enemies relentlessly, because nothing gets under their skin quite like that...!"
Or something to that effect.
My hero, Oscar Wilde.🙂
Me? I’m just a bit of a pushover who refuses to hold a grudge against anyone.
In my book, everything is forgiven right from the get-go.
The people out there who go out of their way to insult, hurt, or—God forbid—humiliate those around them aren't usually doing it on purpose. It's not some grand, calculated scheme.
It’s just their pathetic little defense mechanism, a way to survive while they struggle against this brutal, unforgiving world.
They lash out, they snap, and they strike at whoever happens to be standing nearby.
Honestly, it doesn't bother me. Most people are acting out of some version of that. I've grown used to it. It really doesn't phase me.
They can't touch me.
I won't let them get to me.
If anything, I find myself trying to comfort them and calm them down.
Kill them with kindness.
We all have the potential to be healers.
We can all choose to be compassionate.
Just lend a hand to your neighbor.
"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."
Just one of my million thoughts... but I'm not losing any sleep over it.🙂

Oscar is great, but he misses the mark sometimes, or people just misread him 😁

The move is to ignore your enemies, and once you pull that off, you actually find some peace.

The goal should be finding our own inner peace, not making sure our enemies stay pissed off.

People who go out of their way to insult, hurt, or—God forbid—humiliate those close to them aren't doing it on purpose or with a calculated plan.
It's just their pathetic little defense mechanism as they struggle to survive in this brutal, cruel world.
They lash out, kick, and strike at anyone within reach.
It doesn't bother me. Almost everyone is like that deep down. I'm used to it. Honestly, it doesn't phase me one bit.
They can't touch me.
I won't let them get to me.

You keep saying it, over and over... but you don't really sound like you believe it.🤷
hiddenhound3 hiddenhound3 Regular
309 messages
joined Feb 2018
#20 ·
Jose Ramirez36 said:Lately—well, perhaps "lately" is an understatement, as this has been weighing on me for quite some time now—I have found myself feeling rather stressed. It has led me to wonder: is the fault lying with my environment, or is it simply my own internal reaction to the circumstances that trigger this tension?

It brings to mind a specific period during my high school years—a stretch of several months where I had adopted what one might call an almost relentlessly positive outlook. Back then, I held the conviction that people were fundamentally good at their core; that love, empathy, tolerance, and understanding ought to take precedence over the ego. By this, of course, I am referring primarily to our interpersonal connections. If a conflict arose, or if someone should happen to offend me—whether by design or mere accident—I would simply forgive them in that very moment and let it go.

Over time, however, I drifted away from that mindset toward something more... conventional—a state where the ego plays a far more prominent role. I didn't even notice the transition; I certainly didn't give it much thought at the time. Now, looking back after all these years, it seems to me that during that phase of constant forgiveness, I was significantly more carefree and composed. I moved through a larger social circle, and there was a certain pervasive positivity within my own mind.

One might argue that forgiveness is merely an escape from reality, given that it doesn't actually rectify the external event that caused the initial sting—that bruise to the ego, as it were. But then again, does that truly matter if the act of forgiving allows the individual to feel better and more optimistic? At least, that was certainly my experience when I lived by that particular philosophy.

I find myself curious about how others approach this. Do you weigh your relationships and friendships based on a sense of equilibrium—feeling that both parties must receive an equal measure of benefit? Or is that less important to you than minimizing the sensitivity of your ego and simply forgiving whatever causes friction?

While it is true that people can often behave like cattle, it seems unfair to generalize based on those rare instances of brilliance. As a species, humanity has largely proven itself unworthy of trust. Most individuals are driven strictly by self-interest and the pursuit of profit in whatever form it takes; those who possess genuine benevolence or consideration as part of their fundamental character are exceedingly rare, and even when they do exist, their virtues are frequently overlooked or undervalued.

I am curious to know how others view this matter. When evaluating relationships and friendships, do you weigh them based on whether both parties are receiving an equal benefit, or is that secondary to your goal of minimizing ego and simply forgiving whatever causes offense?

I have never found it necessary to measure, weigh, or trade in the currency of friendship and emotional connections. I find great interest in observing the people who pass through my life, attempting to evaluate them based on their conduct, their speech, their manners, and their body language. While I maintain a certain level of caution, I generally harbor no grudges and never demand that others offer explanations or apologies, even when they certainly deserve to. I am neither vindictive nor overly sentimental; rather, I view every situation that has the potential to hurt me as a personal test or a simple lesson. Those who cause harm to me ultimately inflict more damage upon themselves and their own karma than they ever could upon mine. I do not imbue the act of forgiveness with any romanticized or noble connotations; quite simply, everyone acts according to what they are capable of or what they must do. If a person can live with their own inner rage, who am I to sit in judgment? 🤷

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