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Posts by ironmarlin1

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Double standards in health PDFs? in Feedback & Suggestions ·
Kimberly White63 said:But there is a law (the United States Penal Code) which states

More nonsense, really—as if the Green Party doesn't have enough absurdities to deal with already (is goat urine not quite enough of a remedy for you folks?). I have to wonder, who exactly is being insulted here? Your username? An insult only carries weight when it targets an actual individual, provided that person—with their real-world identity 🙂—is actually offended in front of others. Honestly, go ahead and try to sue someone; then you'll see just how much nonsense you're spewing.
Double standards in health PDFs? in Feedback & Suggestions ·
Kimberly White63 said:This post serves as such a perfect illustration of the exact point I was making earlier. My intention isn't to hawk products or promote some specific supplement or brand; rather, my objection was directed at those qualifications being tossed around in a single media outlet as if they were an established public forum.

I wasn't necessarily implying that you personally are out there peddling junk—though I suspect those corporate parasites who police people's ability to speak freely on their own platforms would have plenty to say about that, seeing as independent thought tends to disrupt their bottom line.

Ultimately, an electronic forum functions as a digital medium subject to the regulations governing electronic communications, which mandate that one must "respect human dignity, human rights, and fundamental freedoms while contributing to the respect of others' opinions and beliefs."

The reality is that there simply isn't a statute in existence that compels a person to show respect for someone else's opinion regarding whether the Holocaust actually happened. By that same logic, there is no law requiring us to respect anyone's decision to ingest literal garbage. This legal theory you're spinning seems to be describing something entirely different from the situation at hand, and I find myself wondering where on earth you managed to pick up such a distorted view.
Double standards in health PDFs? in Feedback & Suggestions ·
I honestly feel like, from everything I’ve been reading lately, Ryan Gomez4 is really overstating things—much like those clingy types over at the Green Party who try to ban anyone from posting on their boards just because they don't see eye-to-eye. The reality of the situation is pretty transparent: their little marketplace isn't quite large enough to sustain all the sales of various supplements they're trying to push through private messages, so naturally, they're looking to expand their reach. That’s why having some sort of established criteria, similar to what you see on the Health forums, is actually a good thing; it simply isn't right to let an entire community be subservient to their little business scheme involving those toxic concoctions.
Executioner moderating the philosophy section in Feedback & Suggestions ·
I honestly can’t wrap my head around why a moderator would hand out warnings just for pointing out that someone is derailing a thread. Take the discussion Emergence and the Creator Problem/Chance for instance; I simply pointed out that two users were just trolling aimlessly, and my post was wiped instantly. To make matters worse, I actually got flagged for being insulting just because I called them "maniacs."

Now, look, if I had been the one penalized while the moderator actually stepped in to deal with those posts, I wouldn't be complaining, but instead, those trolls stay up even though they have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. A few more posts from these "maniacs" trickled in before William Gonzalez3 finally decided to hand out warnings—and that was only after several days of trolling and specifically targeting later posts rather than when the disruption actually started.

Then there’s the thread Which is the only non-material phenomenon that cannot be doubted where hiddenpuma75 keeps dropping these kinds of posts just to provoke people for no reason at all: I reported one such post after noticing once again that the moderator wasn't doing their job, only for the post to be deleted without any penalty—since these warnings are apparently just meant for flagging derailment. It feels like there are several threads that have been arbitrarily moved to different sections because the moderator lacks a grasp on philosophy and just shoves everything under psychology. There was this one thread regarding suicide; he likely assumed that meant it fell under the umbrella of psychology. Perhaps it does, but that should be a philosophical stance requiring actual argumentation rather than just forcing an opinion by moving the entire thread. Is it even necessary to mention the philosophers from antiquity through to the modern era who have grappled with this question? I mean, most people have probably read Camus, though I suppose William Gonzalez3 might be the exception.
It isn’t actually a shortened cut; rather, it’s the expanded Italian version. 😁
It turns out there’s a DVD release featuring both versions. I wonder if anyone in a big city like Chicago might have a copy lying around somewhere?
The trouble is, I just can't stomach watching Burt deliver those lines in Italian when he's supposed to be giving such a raw, visceral performance. And as it stands, that specific version is the only one currently circulating online. 👎
I’m a firm believer in its merit, truly, but I just haven’t managed to carve out the hours to actually sit down with it—even though the book is sitting right there on my shelf, staring at me. One of these days, I suppose... 🙄
I mean, the movie itself is nothing short of brilliant; if memory serves, I caught it on PBS sometime last year, and honestly, I’d give anything to revisit it right this second, but life simply won't allow it. Tough luck. 😁

Besides, you can't exactly replicate the magic of seeing a young Claudia Cardinale on screen when you're just flipping through the pages of a book. 😁
I’ve been hunting for this for quite some time now, though I suppose my persistence might be bordering on the obsessive. Does anyone happen to know where I might track down this film, specifically in its original English version? I am strictly looking for the English audio—no Italian versions for me, please! 🙄 If any of you savvy souls have stumbled upon a digital source or a reliable site, would you mind sending me a private message? I’m not entirely certain what the house rules are here regarding links to online downloads, so I figured I'd play it safe. 👎
PDF: Social Science in Chaos in Feedback & Suggestions ·
I seem to recall starting a thread there where Abyssus responded to my question with such blatant rudeness, even though nobody had provoked her or said a single offensive thing. If I have any grievance at all with the moderators, it’s their tendency to sit back and tolerate idiots who treat the forum like a therapy session for their own personal drama. To be fair, I’m not a regular presence there, but that particular experience left quite a bitter taste in my mouth.
On objective existence and objectivism in Philosophy ·
James Lee77 said:It’s not like I’m saying truth is "unreachable," it’s more like any description we come up with is just incomplete. There are experiences out there that simply can't be put into words.

And as for why I’m convinced there’s an actual truth out there, I think I already touched on it here:

If truth was just a matter of consensus, then there wouldn't be any real difference between academic peer reviews, church councils, or political conventions. You'd just have a bunch of people who happen to hold authority under the current political climate getting together to vote on what the truth should be.

But that isn't truth, no matter how much they agree. Truth isn't found in a consensus; it's about stating what actually is.

Fair enough, I think I follow your train of thought. You're touching on science and the idea that something like the theory of evolution isn't just a shared opinion, but something grounded in undeniable evidence. However, my focus is more specifically on the philosophical side of things—the question of whether referring to an object in nature is somehow (ontologically?) relative. Much like Quineov's "Gavagai" thought experiment.
On objective existence and objectivism in Philosophy ·
James Lee77 said:I mean, I don't think so.
You can't ignore the fact that objects, in that sense, are just part of an imagination used to explain our experiences. So, I guess your whole idea about "real things" is kind of off.

I'm lost. 🤷

If that’s the case, how can you argue that "truth" is a thing we just happen to be unable to grasp? It feels like a bit of a logical knot to me—if you claim truth is unreachable, then you're essentially saying it doesn't exist at all, which contradicts your own premise.🤷
On objective existence and objectivism in Philosophy ·
James Lee77 said:I always used to say "more or less" when I was trying to give a true description. Honestly, it feels like no description is ever actually complete. Even when you think you've nailed it, there’s always some extra stuff left out that you didn't mention. I guess that means the best of us might just be talking in circles. Truth. I guess I'm just getting started... maybe? Hang on, let me get my thoughts together. I'll be right back! Just keeping it real. No lies here....but never even once. The whole truth..

So, here's how I see it: reality is just insanely complex. Like, infinitely layered. Any way you try to describe it, you're really just getting one tiny, partial slice of that massive complexity. I guess depending on which specific part of this crazy mess you decide to focus on, certain perspectives might seem more useful or relevant than others. But honestly? None of them give you the full picture. Not even close.

I guess it’s becoming pretty obvious that there can be more than one right way to describe something—but that doesn't mean reality itself isn't just one single thing.
It’s not just about being wrong; the real problem is that your whole argument relies on the idea that even lies have some kind of mathematical structure. I mean, if you’re going to insist that there's this "beautiful" math baked right into nature, then you basically have to admit that every single flawed theory throughout history also had its own "beautiful" structure. Like, take an electron orbiting a nucleus, for instance. Honestly? I don't see anything elegant about Pi or e at all. 🤷

Look, I mean, "beauty" alone isn't really enough to get the job done—but maybe it's still a necessary starting point? I guess. 🤷
I was kind of aiming for the idea that what we’ve been calling an electron isn't actually an electron. Like, maybe think about how the Boeing model of the atom works.

That description was totally half-baked and, honestly, kind of wrong. Even the current version feels like it's missing a bunch of stuff. And who knows, maybe it’s still not even fully accurate? I guess.

But do you honestly believe that a complete description is even possible in principle?

It becomes increasingly obvious that there are sometimes multiple ways to accurately describe something—yet that doesn't imply that reality itself is somehow fragmented or non-singular.

If the very concept of existence and the objects within it is relative, then a complete description simply cannot exist, not even as a theoretical possibility.

That was an incomplete description, and partially inaccurate at that. And frankly, the current one is incomplete too. For all we know, it might also be somewhat inaccurate.

You can't ignore the fact that, in this context, objects are essentially constructs of the imagination used to make sense of our experiences. Because of that, I suspect your thesis regarding "real things" is fundamentally flawed.
On objective existence and objectivism in Philosophy ·
James Lee77 said:Totally. But language isn't "the thing itself." A description—whether it's words, sentences, sketches, or math formulas—tries to mirror the structure of the actual object. If the description is actually true, then its structure should be pretty close to the structure of the real thing.
The problem is, since we can also just say things that aren't true, the structure of a description can be totally random. In those cases, it doesn't match any real structure at all.
Is an electron from the early 1900s the exact same thing as an electron today?

Of course it is. I mean, physics relies on the whole idea that an electron today is the same as an electron was right after the Big Bang.
I don't see how anyone could trust physical theories if they didn't believe in the permanence of physical objects (including laws of physics, too).🤷
Are we just using some metaphysical glue to stick words onto real objects, or are they just part of whatever theory we have right now?

It’s not about "glue." It’s more that the structures in our descriptions correspond to—or are similar to—the structures of reality.

Sure, you could argue that reality doesn't actually have any structure and that every structure we see is just something humans made up. I don't buy that, though. 🤷 If that were true, the difference between a "true" invention and a "false" one would be purely conventional—like, truth would just be whatever the majority thinks, or whatever people in power decide it is. But I don't believe that—I really think a single person can be right (telling the truth) even when they're going against the crowd or the people in charge.

It’s not just that complication, though; the real problem for your argument is that even falsehoods possess their own mathematical structures. If you insist on clinging to this idea of a "beautiful" mathematics embedded within the fabric of nature, then you have to concede that all those erroneous theories throughout history also possessed a certain "beautiful" structural integrity. Take the old model of an electron orbiting a nucleus, for instance. To be perfectly honest, I don't see anything remotely elegant about the number pi or the constant e.🤷

Of course. In fact, all physical theories rest upon the fundamental assumption that an electron today is essentially the same entity as an electron was at the dawn of the twentieth century, or even shortly after the Big Bang.
I struggle to see how anyone who doubts that continuity—that persistent stability of physical objects and laws—could possibly believe in the truth of any physical theory. 🤷 It isn't about just forcing things to fit; it's the idea that the structures used in our descriptions correspond to, or rather, mimic the structures of reality.

My point was specifically that what we were referring to as an electron wasn't actually an electron. Look at the Boeing model of the atom, for example. How can we claim to be referring to something that doesn't truly exist? If you rely on a description—mathematical or otherwise—as the vehicle through which we make references, then it becomes impossible to refer to something that lacks that underlying reality.

Certainly, one could argue that reality possesses no inherent structure whatsoever and that every structure we perceive is merely a human invention. Personally, I don't buy that. 🤷 Under that logic, the distinction between a true invention and a false one would be purely conventional—truth would simply become a matter of consensus, perhaps defined by whatever the majority believes or by whoever holds political power at the moment. But I reject that; I believe a single individual can be right, speaking the truth, even when they find themselves at odds with the masses or the powers that be.

But what happens when you're faced with two equivalent theories—two different models that both perfectly account for our observations? If you insist that there must be one singular, true description, how on earth are we supposed to choose? To me, it seems a unique, definitive description could only exist if there were some Great Mind that had meticulously choreographed everything in one specific way. However, much like that discussion on natural sciences where I saw no logical reason to prefer the number three over seven, there is no decisive way to choose here either. Concepts like "existence" and "objects" are somewhat relative; that doesn't mean they can be inaccurate, but it does mean there isn't necessarily one solitary, absolute truth waiting to be found.
On objective existence and objectivism in Philosophy ·
fadedbison17 said:I'm curious, John Doe—did we actually manage to answer your original question? And if so, what's your final take on it?

What we have here is the idea that all of this is essentially just a useful fiction, a convenient little narrative designed to make sense of our lived experiences.
On objective existence and objectivism in Philosophy ·
James Lee77 said:I don't really care about the specifics here—I just used a number as the simplest example. What I'm trying to get at is that math deals with stuff that is inherently part of nature (it’s not just some random thing humans made up). Basically, I mean math deals with things that are totally real, rather than just being a matter of convention.

As far as I’m concerned, whether we’re talking about a kitchen table, a redwood tree, a train station, or even molecules, atoms, and electrons, they are all just as much "inventions" as numbers are. We essentially conjure these concepts up to make sense of our daily experiences. To claim something is truly real, you have to be able to point to it through language, but there's a catch: the very language we choose is dictated by our current theories of reality or our scientific models. For instance, is an electron as understood at the dawn of the twentieth century actually the same thing as the electron we discuss today? Are we merely applying a sort of metaphysical glue, sticking labels onto objects in reality, or are those objects simply constructs within our prevailing theory?
On objective existence and objectivism in Philosophy ·
fadedbison17 said:Look, it wasn't meant to be a deep dive. I was trying to explain this to someone who doesn't have a clue what I'm talking about, not someone with their own established view. If I recall correctly, you mentioned something along the lines of not knowing what abstractions even are.
Epistemology is an entire branch of philosophy... there's no way I can squeeze all of that into a few posts, nor does it even occur to me to try.

I'd suggest checking out that book I mentioned before (Introduction to Rationalism). Once you've had a chance to read it, I'd be more than happy to hash this out with you.
No offense intended!!! 🙂

Look, I know perfectly well what epistemology is, but nobody actually asked for a freshman survey course on the subject; they wanted answers to specific questions. As for abstractions, my point was simply that within this particular context, we really ought to define what they signify, because it's such a fuzzy, imprecise term—and if you ask me, it acts as a convenient little loophole used to smuggle in all sorts of nonsense under the guise of equivocation ☕).

I’d suggest picking up the book I mentioned earlier (Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology). Once you’ve had a chance to go through it, I would be more than happy to sit down and hash this out with you properly.
No offense intended!!! 🙂

Well, if we follow that logic, I suppose I should start sending you links to various epistemology textbooks so we can just endlessly trade reading lists instead of actually discussing the ideas we’ve gathered from them. 🤷 Though, looking at the reviews for that book on Amazon, I noticed someone citing a passage regarding the split between the analytic and the synthetic, claiming that the distinction "is accepted, in some form, by virtually every influential contemporary philosopher." To me, that seems quite extraordinary, considering the author of that book appears to be largely unacquainted with modern philosophy. 🤷 Not to mention, as far as I can tell, Objectivism is more of a cult-like movement than a serious philosophical system.
On objective existence and objectivism in Philosophy ·
James Lee77 said:The whole idea was that numbers—and really, all of math—aren't actually built into nature, but are just something humans project onto the world to describe it.
But look, if there's a real difference between hydrogen and helium out there in the universe, and that difference is nothing more than a difference in the number of something, then that theory totally falls apart.
Basically, numbers exist just as much as crows do.

What exactly do you mean when you claim that numbers are inherent to nature? Are you simply asserting their existence? And honestly, why wouldn't we apply Occam’s razor here to limit ourselves—or perhaps expand our scope, depending on how you look at it—strictly to sets?
On objective existence and objectivism in Philosophy ·
fadedbison17 said:Let me break down how abstractions actually work, then you can draw your own conclusions about what they are.

If humans (like me) didn't have minds, nothing would matter—the word everything and something would mean the exact same thing. There wouldn't be any distinction between, say, a wall, a cabinet, or the sky. You couldn't tell anything apart.
Luckily, my brain "slices" reality into objects. When I look at a cabinet, I see the edge separating it from the wall and the floor—my mind creates that distinction, allowing me to view that object (the cabinet) as something separate from everything else.

Once I mastered those boundaries (the edges), all I have left are objects. A cabinet is an object, a wall is an object, the sky is an object, a table is an object, a chair is an object... but that doesn't tell me much, so I give each one a different label. That’s where abstraction kicks in.

To exaggerate: when I was a kid, I saw something that had a flat surface where people sit. I asked my mom, "What's that?" and she gave me a name for it—a chair. Way to go, me—I made an abstraction! 🙂

What really happened was that I spotted a new object that looked different from anything I'd seen before.

But abstraction isn't just a name. When I saw the chair and Mom told me what it was, I had to link that info together. Basically, I took the most similar trait shared by other objects (a flat surface) and found the biggest difference compared to other flat things (people sit on this). So, I tied the name (the abstraction) to the physical object (the chair).

Hopefully, that clears up what an abstraction is and how it functions.

If that makes sense—which I hope it does—then it's also clear that "chair" is just a word describing the basic traits of an object. The word itself doesn't exist in the wild; it's just an explanation or a label for what I'm seeing.

I suspect there is a fundamental error in that reasoning. You suggest that the mind "dissects" reality itself, but it strikes me that you might be conflating our subjective experience with objective reality (please, do correct me if my logic falters here). A human being dissects their *experience*. To conclude that by doing so, we are somehow penetrating the core of reality without any pre-existing conceptual framework seems, to my mind, an entirely unjustified leap.

No, abstraction isn't merely a label. When I see a chair and my mother tells me, "That is a chair," I am forced to synthesize those data points in some way. What actually occurs is that I identify the most salient characteristic shared with other objects—in this case, a flat surface—and then isolate the primary difference between it and other flat surfaces (namely, that people sit on it). In this manner, I bridge the gap between the abstraction (the name) and the concrete object (the chair).

That’s fine, but does it not follow that when you employ such an abstraction in speech, you are attempting to refer to something else? If that is the case, are you referring to the abstraction itself when you speak, or are you referring to the actual chair? If it’s the latter, where do these abstractions reside, and what exactly are they? You’ve provided a relatively straightforward example to illustrate abstraction, but I suspect that once we peel back the layers, your position becomes rather precarious. Consider, for instance, a scenario where someone commits a murder—an anonymous perpetrator—and you declare that the individual was "insane." You have provided a description of the person, but what precisely are you referring to? Is that judgment itself inherently untrue?

If this makes sense (which I hope it does), then it should also be clear that "chair" is simply a word used to describe the fundamental characteristics of a particular object. The word itself doesn't exist in a vacuum; it functions merely as a descriptor or a tag for what I am observing.

Perhaps, though it remains somewhat unclear how you actually manage to refer to things; you've largely just explained the mechanism by which we might grasp the meaning of a word.
On objective existence and objectivism in Philosophy ·
Even when we start talking about them, what does one even mean by "abstractions"? To me, it doesn't feel any more sophisticated than just admitting, "I haven't got a clue." If someone tries to claim that a number is merely an abstraction, I don't think they can possibly mean what kresho2 is suggesting here:

Abstractions are simply the descriptions we humans use to label or identify things that exist in the world.

Because, let’s be honest, numbers aren't adjectives or descriptive labels—and neither are elements like helium or hydrogen. 🤷
On objective existence and objectivism in Philosophy ·
swiftcobra15 said: First, a little joke: I once asked an old sailor who had crossed the equator dozens of times what it actually looks like. He just shot back, "It looks like any other stretch of ocean to me!"

Immanuel Kant essentially took Protagoras' idea and refined it, arguing that

By doing this, he philosophically dismantled the possibility of true objectivism, yet so many people still "philosophize" as if Immanuel Kant never even existed.

Numbers are certainly more "objective" than simple digits, but at the end of the day, both are human constructs.

It was Immanuel Kant who essentially took Protagoras's famous postulate and refined it into this idea:

We can only perceive things through our own unique human lens.

In doing so, he philosophically dismantled the possibility of any absolute objectivism,
yet you still see plenty of people "philosophizing" as if Immanuel Kant had never even walked the earth.

Numbers are certainly more "objective" than mere digits, but let's be honest, both are constructs of the human mind. [/FONT]
You know, I was actually thinking about Kant when I wrote that earlier. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say he made all objectivism impossible—especially considering the school of thought championed by Ayn Rand 😁, whose movement was literally called Objectivism 😉. Rather, I’d argue that he simply demonstrated that "objectivity" isn't quite what humanity originally thought it was. 👍
On objective existence and objectivism in Philosophy ·
Mark Torres14 said:Look, David, I think I was pretty clear. When I talk about "judgment," I mean it doesn't exist outside of a human being. My starting point is simple: "Man is the measure of all things."
But within how we perceive those judgments, there are objective values based on empiricism and things you can actually verify. Basically, an objective reality exists independently of us, but an objective "judgment" about that reality can only be made by a person.
That only implies the existence of God if we force a split between values and facts. Why even accept that division?

Because facts are meaningless without some kind of value attached to them. There is no dichotomy—if there were, then "God would be the measure of all things." Facts and values are one and the same. And in my view, the human being is the starting point that provides subjectivity to that "one."

👍

Because facts are essentially meaningless if they aren't anchored to some form of value. There isn't actually a dichotomy at play here, because if there were, then "God would be the measure of all things." "Facts and values" are two sides of the same coin. As I see it, the human being is the foundational point that injects subjectivity into that single entity.

I honestly don't see anything in that argument that I find disagreeable. "Facts" and "values" are effectively one and the same. To put it another way, scientific facts are themselves the byproduct of certain underlying values, yet we don't go around labeling them as subjective. My whole point is simply that this distinction isn't nearly as clear-cut as some people would prefer it to be.