Posts by Nicholas King

Jason Morgan said:Well, at most American universities since the credit reform... yes, they do.

Most of my colleagues conduct this kind of research independently through anonymous end-of-year surveys or by checking in with the eighth graders.

The real issue here—as a reaction to this imaginary scenario of student extortion where the primary demand is "unlimited absences"—is the question of why anyone would force a student to attend lectures in the first place; specifically, why attendance should (or shouldn't) have any bearing whatsoever on the grade they earn.

Testing knowledge is essentially a process equivalent to weighing someone—it's simply determining a state of being. Forcing students to show up to class and subsequently conditioning a passing or better grade on that physical presence is just like a situation where someone shows up to be weighed having achieved a perfect weight and boasting massive biceps, triceps, and all the other muscles—only to have the scale operator screw them over because they didn't do their workouts at 8:00 AM at the MuscleBuscle gym, but instead chose some other time at some other location.

It's pure feudalism.

Ironically, you've raised my blood pressure so much with your passive-aggressive tone and constant facepalming that you completely failed to realize I am actually against mandatory attendance just as much as you are—I certainly wasn't claiming, even in my wildest dreams, that attending class isn't mandatory under most of these professor-feudals.

That demand for unlimited absences, which is what started this whole conversation, isn't something students should be asking for as part of some imagined extortion scheme; it's quite possibly the most normal thing in the world.

Ronald Chavez2 said:How exactly would that play out? Picture a student representative standing up at the first lecture and telling the professor, "Look, here’s the deal: we have unlimited absences, we need the midterms a week in advance, the finals a month early, and you better let us throw spontaneous raves in your classroom, otherwise, we’re all tanking your evaluation scores—capisce?"

Personally, I don't think student surveys should be the primary metric for evaluating teachers, though perhaps they have a place. Why not implement age-appropriate feedback paired with external evaluations and long-term performance tracking? It seems to me that if you're going to use external evaluators, you really need baseline testing to understand what kind of environment the teachers are walking into; without that context, the exit data is pretty much meaningless.

Honestly, when you're dealing with college students, this is a completely reasonable demand.

I mean, why does a student actually HAVE to show up to every single lecture? If they show up to the midterm or the final exam having mastered all the material—so what? Is the response just, 'Sorry, kid, you missed class, so beat it'? That seems fundamentally flawed to me. 🤦

Conducting surveys among elementary schoolers is likely a terrible idea—and I’m specifically talking about any survey where the results would dictate a teacher's career without even a shred of oversight or nuance.

However, viewing high schoolers and college students—every single one of them, in my estimation—as nothing more than entitled brats who care about nothing except getting their diploma while couldn't care less about actual learning... well, seeing them as a bunch of kids who will inevitably use these surveys to screw over dedicated professors just for the hell of it is, frankly, pathetic. And it’s all the more telling when those kinds of descriptions are being voiced by the educators themselves.

Look, a survey isn't some flawless instrument, but it isn't a bad one either. Besides, it's always easy to just sit back and spit on everything.

BTW, of course student feedback from high school or college levels can, and perhaps should, lead to a teacher being let go in certain specific circumstances.

hiddendriver34 said:Nicholas King, how exactly would you go about doing an external evaluation of professors without actually grading their students? Would you just sit there reviewing their lesson plans and tests? That’s nothing but red tape; it wouldn't prove a thing. Or would you drop in on one of their classes to observe a lecture? One visit wouldn't tell you anything about how they teach the rest of the week. (And honestly, both of those things are already handled by academic advisors.)

What about evaluations on a website, similar to how patients rate their doctors? I actually think that’s not a bad idea at all—I truly believe students could do a fantastic job if they were evaluating professors based on specific categories. (I’m not quite as sure about parents, though.) I’m a big believer in using evaluations as a tool for self-reflection for anyone—I think we teachers should be evaluating our principals, and they should be evaluating us. In fact, I think your bosses, your subordinates, and even your clients should be evaluating you, regardless of what career you've chosen.

You might want to give my previous posts another read. I am a firm believer that you shouldn't mess with a teacher's autonomy. If anything, I think we should be given even more freedom in how we work. But for heaven's sake, that doesn't mean I'm against any kind of assessment of our performance.
All the best school systems in the world give their teachers a high level of autonomy. Take Finland (classic!), where they don't prescribe specific homework; teachers are completely free to choose it themselves.

Your whole argument starts from the assumption that teachers—even after all their training—don't know how to do their jobs. A lot of people in this country think just like you do. Their solution? Implement strict, heavy-handed control over teachers. That's how people who have zero clue how teaching actually works think. Creativity requires freedom, and only creative teaching is truly good teaching.
It would be wonderful if we could trust our teachers. That's the magic word.😉 It's what the Finnish do. And the Dutchman too.

Honestly, one would need some pretty severe cognitive impairments to draw that specific conclusion from my statements—and an even more profound struggle with basic debate skills to present it as an absolute, indisputable fact.

I simply don't have the time, nor the inclination, to sit here and lecture anyone on the elementary principles of logical reasoning.

Thanks for nothing. Goodbye.

hiddendriver34 said:Hmm, so we base it on the fact that they went to college for this and it's literally their profession? Like, assuming they actually know how to do the job?

Honestly, I'm just done arguing with people who hold the view that teachers are just random idiots off the street who can ONLY do something right if someone watches over their shoulder like a nervous apprentice.

And could you please walk me through what you mean by "getting defensive" about external evaluations? Who exactly is getting defensive?🤔 As far as I can tell, most teachers actually push for external testing—like the SATs or state exams—mostly because it takes some of the weight of a student's entire future off their shoulders.

Assumption is the mother of all screw-ups.

Look, students are subjective, parents are subjective—what do they really know about what makes a good, competent educator? I mean, if you listen to the people who train everyone who supposedly "knows how to do their job," you'll see just how many "qualified and capable" individuals manage to wedge themselves into the system only to start exercising their supposed "autonomy." What is the actual issue with external evaluations? It's the same standard applied to almost any other profession—it shouldn't be special treatment—so why does it cause such intense indignation and mental anguish?

I honestly don't have the energy to keep arguing against the view that teachers are just random idiots off the street who, if their every move isn't monitored like some apprentice, MIGHT actually manage to do something right.

Right. If you don't like Tit, you must love Hitler. If you don't grant a teacher the "autonomy" to conduct testing and grading, you consider them an idiot. That's some pretty impressive logic—one which I have neither the desire nor the intention to engage with.

And could you please elaborate on this bit about pushing back against external evaluation? Who exactly is pushing back?🤔

Well, look, your posts are essentially the essence of an elitist educator because someone dared to question a teacher's right to "autonomy."

As far as I know, most teachers advocate for external evaluation (like the SATs)

The SAT is, by today's standards here, an external evaluation of students (based on your sentence about "shifting responsibility," it seems you view it exclusively that way) — but I am talking about the external evaluation of teachers (BTW, it would be incredibly unfair to judge teachers solely, or even primarily, based on their students' SAT scores—but, it's also quite foolish that the SAT isn't currently used as an external metric for teachers at all—but, that's a whole different topic).

Take a look at your own sentences before you come back claiming that "most teachers advocate for external evaluation."

I actually find myself in complete and total agreement with your core points. It’s just that where you see autonomy, I see pure feudalism—because this supposed "freedom" is nothing more than a teacher's unwritten, self-assumed prerogative that isn't grounded in any actual policy. 😬

The way some people get all sanctimonious and defensive the second you even mention external evaluations is just more proof of the problem. It’s that exact "they can judge ME, and nobody else, so what do they care?" mentality. This attitude toward the teaching process is one of those Bastilles that any serious overhaul of the American education system would need to tear down.

If you can't stomach these reforms, then I suppose you have no business living here in the first place 🙂.

I honestly don't see how the abstract concept of learning outcomes—which, by the way, isn't some localized invention—has anything to do with whether or not I actually grasp the specifics of this particular reform.

What I’m laying out here isn't a matter of bias or personal prejudice; these are simply cold, hard facts, not subjective opinions.

Besides, here’s a little challenge for you all: this forum is absolutely crawling with educators—so why don't all those professionals whose knowledge assessments are subject to external oversight before they're even administered step up? I'd love to see them write down exactly how they define a grade given to a student in a clear and concrete way. Let’s just take a single grade like a "passing" mark, for instance.

That’s a pretty weak example you've got there.

Learning outcomes aren't some trendy buzzword—they're actually a way to ensure skills remain comparable and people stay mobile in the workforce. More importantly, they serve to dismantle the old-school feudalism still lurking in our schools, where teachers basically hold unchecked power to test knowledge and hand out grades however they see fit.

The second issue is that, in practice, these learning outcomes are nothing more than dead ink on a page. Knowledge assessments lack any kind of external validation, leaving grading entirely up to subjective whims—usually based on sentences that start with, "Well, they need to know this FOR ME..."

That little song 🙄 isn't just some trivial excess—it’s actually a perfect microcosm of the massive, gaping holes left by this so-called "reform" that its architects are so loudly boasting about.

Ideally, there should be some sort of exhaustive breakdown here detailing all the delusions and sheer incompetence reflected in both the "song" and the entire meeting itself—which, let's not forget, cost taxpayers a cool million dollars net—but honestly, I don't even know where to start. Instead, just try to imagine the pure parental horror when your kid comes home from this "reformed school" having achieved nothing more than some tragic little ditty like this... (and I'm not just talking about the brain-dead rhymes, but the completely botched rhythm too—for heaven's sake, at least count the syllables so you can see how the line "because school is life, that's who we are" ends up with an extra 🙂) as their sole educational milestone...

No, they sing it along with some choreographed dance routine and the burning of millions in taxpayer dollars.

Kakadu said:I can't speak for other military bases, but mine seems—perhaps with an excessive amount of anxiety (😬)—to be entirely preoccupied with Loomen

Alright, you self-proclaimed experts and experimentalists,
the frontline troops are arriving this September.

Loomen* is a fine name, I suppose,
as far as I know, things stay smooth there.

The mentors look after us, watching our backs,
though occasionally they hand out a few treats.

It’s a good thing we’re all here together,
since we really are the school of hard knocks.

We had a truly wonderful time,
see you all very soon!
🐔🐔🐔

To phrase—"go see a lawyer and find out if he thinks that amount is actionable"—doesn't mean they're telling you to just sue the owner directly.

Is that how you're reading it?

Who was it that actually suggested the OP file a lawsuit against her former owner? 😕

William Nelson4 said:Look, if the buyer is some expert in something totally irrelevant, they can just bring someone along who actually knows those things during the walkthrough. 😁
Pay a pro if you have to.

It’s like buying a used car—if you don't know your stuff, you bring a mechanic with you, and hey, there's way less cash on the line.

People buy property knowing they aren't experts, and then, like, a few years later (!?), they suddenly remember they want to sue the former owner.
Give me a break.

It’s pretty clear you didn't actually read the text, so I suppose I'll have to repeat the specific wording of the legal statute—which, by the way, makes zero mention of "bringing someone who knows the lessons" (and honestly, I'm still waiting for an answer on where exactly one learns "those lessons" in a standard American education):

It is considered that they could not have remained unknown to the buyer—those defects that a diligent individual with average knowledge and experience, being of the same profession and expertise as the buyer, could easily notice during a standard inspection of the premises.

So, it isn't always true that "ignorance is no excuse"...

William Nelson4 said:Suing the former owners?!

Look, they didn't hide anything, which means there was no setup. I mean, the device was right there in front of their faces when they were inspecting and buying the place, right? It wasn't exactly buried behind a brick wall and plastered over!

And then there's this whole, "we aren't from Washington, D.C., so we don't know how gas lines work"...
Ignorance isn't an excuse for anyone.

Honestly, I can't even begin to guess all the things people are going to "forget" about...

The mandatory relationship law doesn't quite align with your logic:

It is generally understood that they shouldn't have hidden defects that a diligent individual—someone with even average knowledge and experience in the same field as the buyer—could easily spot during a standard inspection.

If the buyer happens to be an expert in Sanskrit studies, I really have to wonder just how much they are expected to know about the specific layout of gas installations in an apartment building.

In what grade, in what specific class, or under which exact lesson would anyone learn that you aren't supposed to put a gas meter in a bathroom?

Just a quick heads-up: in this forum—and honestly, in pretty much any online space—addressing one another with "you" is more than just standard practice; it’s actually considered polite under basic netiquette. Using overly formal titles can sometimes even come across as a bit insulting or standoffish.

Regarding the actual issue at hand: I certainly get why the author is so frustrated by the situation she found herself in, but none of the people participating in this thread are responsible for what happened. Therefore, it feels a bit misplaced—and frankly, rather unpleasant—to take out that frustration on the messengers delivering the bad news.

Technically, you could sue anyone for anything, I suppose—but the reality is that every legal battle drags on for ages, and there is always the very real risk of losing, which would leave you facing even steeper costs than the ones you're dealing with now.

My suggestion? Pick up a copy of the law of obligations and take a close look at sections 402, 404, and 407. You need to weigh whether you could actually prove in court that the defect wasn't something a "reasonably competent person of your knowledge and expertise should have noticed during a standard inspection"—specifically regarding whether the "defect was known to the seller or could not have been unknown to them." If I’ve interpreted those sections correctly, your right to claim might also be subject to a two-year statute of limitations. Based on all that, decide for yourself if you really want to dive into such a long, expensive, and unpredictable legal adventure.

Larry Walker24 said:The exact same thing happened over at that school near Voltaic.

If my memory serves me right—and it usually does—the parents of this kid are both educators. Now, everyone is busy judging them based on their parenting skills, but I guess nobody thinks to question how effective they actually are as teachers...

mistydrifter55 said:I never once said we actually BOUGHT her a new cup just because she didn't like this one.
We went over to the cabinet where the other plastic cups are kept, and I just asked her which one of those she wanted to swap it with. The whole point was that she can't use glass—don't want anything breaking, blah blah blah.

But you people just love to overanalyze everything and build these ridiculous theories that make zero sense, all because they're trendy. 🍿

Even if you had gone out together to pick up a new one she actually liked—what’s the worst that could happen?

Aside from her having a perfect little sob story ready for when the princess starts crying, "it was never my way! You guys are the absolute WORST parents ever!!!11!!! 😬, this is one of those situations where these so-called principled types end up facepalming at their own reflection years later—once the kids have grown up and moved out—because of all the parental nonsense they put themselves through. It'll be like, man, what an idiot I was, making such a massive production out of a simple toothbrush cup....

I’m picturing an intern who buys something completely wrong—something so cheap you couldn't even buy a decent bottle of Napa Valley Cabernet for that price—realizes they messed up, and then, instead of just picking up something better, decides to follow some arbitrary "principle" where they just live with their mistake.

You can't seriously believe that a child is going to grow up to be some financially irresponsible fraud just because of a stupid ten-dollar glass.

Life is simply too short to spend it dealing with these kinds of rigid, self-righteous rule-followers.