Posts by Nicholas King

urbantinker8 said:An outsider trying to lecture a professional on the specific educational methods a teacher should use during their own classroom hours is probably about as useful as an amateur trying to weigh in on the technical nuances of how a dentist treats a cavity.☕
I'm not really talking about simple complaints regarding a bad filling, a mediocre cup of coffee, or perhaps a misguided pedagogical choice.😉

But then again, 👋

I suppose I should probably just let you all quote my little "philosophical lecture" regarding educational standards—if you even care to listen. It seems like you might have accidentally sent an incomplete thought or a single word—"methods"—but even that alone raises some interesting questions for me. I suppose if we are talking about methodologies, there is always a tendency to get caught up in the sheer complexity of how things are executed, isn't there? Maybe the issue isn't the method itself, but rather the rigid application of it—though, I guess that’s a bit of a generalization. In my experience, people often cling to a specific way of doing things just because it's familiar, even when the results are clearly lackluster. It's a bit like watching someone try to fix a broken engine with a hammer when they really need a diagnostic computer; it's inefficient, frankly, and quite frustrating to witness. If you were intending to start a deeper discussion about specific approaches or frameworks, please do elaborate. I tend to prefer a more thorough breakdown of the "how" and "why" before jumping to conclusions—it's a bit tedious, I know, but I find it necessary to avoid making sweeping statements that don't hold water. Either you should apply what you've suggested—and let’s just set aside the whole debate of whether I actually know what I'm talking about or if I'm some kind of amateur—or you're simply lying. There really isn't a third option here.

On the contrary—when I actually took the time to present them with a selection of those famous authorities that you, well, apparently lack if you expect any actual miracles to happen—all I received was a resounding, deafening "I don't know."

When you stumble upon a situation where people can't even distinguish between a legitimate debate over dental techniques and mere whining about a botched procedure, it’s enough to make anyone seriously concerned about the state of things.

I suppose—and I might be wrong here, but it seems obvious—that unless someone has a degree in hospitality management and several years of experience working behind a bar, they aren't even qualified to tell a waiter that he served them vomit instead of a cup of coffee.

Emily Gonzalez51 said:And what's the actual goal here? Are we just going to drag this out indefinitely by insisting that teachers are both the cause and the cure for every single failure in the American school system?

Teacher Passive-Aggressiveness, Part III.

As long as you’re stuck thinking in terms of "us" versus "them"—as long as it's always "we against you" or "you against us"—there’s just no hope for actual happiness or even a decent conversation.

Emily Gonzalez51 said:Nobody should have to suffer because of someone else. But tell me, what would your "solution" actually look like?

To put it bluntly, if we follow your logic, all school problems would vanish simply by firing every incompetent teacher. Suddenly, Mike and Steve would stop fighting and smashing desks, everyone would miraculously start studying, and those losers from the PTSD-related organization wouldn't be hanging around the halls anymore. It’ll be such a utopia that the Department of Social Services won't even have a job left. 🤷

The Passive Aggression of the Education Department, Part II.

BTW—which incompetent teachers are we actually talking about here? I thought you claimed they didn't even exist—since, apparently, nobody has filed a single complaint?

Paul Wilson72 said:It’s funny how people love to complain about veteran professors who have been teaching for decades. But if someone actually suggested giving faculty similar pension benefits to what police officers get, the outcry would start all over again. You’d hear the same old tired arguments about how they aren't even doing any real work anyway...

I’ve tried explaining the reality of working in education to people outside the field, but it feels like a losing battle. It just goes to show that you can't convince someone of a truth they aren't interested in hearing. As the saying goes, "you can't feed a man who claims he isn't hungry."

If you didn't manage to grasp a single point from my previous post, there really wasn't a need to shout it to the heavens.

urbantinker8 said:I find it somewhat fascinating, I suppose, how the conclusion always seems to be that none of us learned a single useful thing in college, whether we're talking about our actual subject matter or the pedagogical side of teaching.🙄
We act like our specific subject is the only thing that matters, yet we struggle with lesson planning, don't work particularly hard, spend more time relaxing than prepping, demand impossible things from students, have no clue how to run a classroom, can't talk to kids effectively, and apparently don't know how to handle parents either. It’s almost as if we’re entirely unqualified for the jobs we hold.
But then again, if we're all so incompetent, where are all those "seasoned experts" hiding??😕
If you're all such master educators, why aren't you actually working in the school system trying to fix the educational framework instead of just typing away on internet forums?🤷

This is a textbook example of academic passive-aggression.

Who actually went around claiming that no one in the teaching profession isn't doing their job properly? Of course, no such claims were ever made—but then again, who cares? We’re going to react with that classic, predictable blend of union solidarity and cult-like psychology.

It all boils down to one simple reality: when I pointed out the fact that every single educator knows perfectly well they are sitting in the faculty lounge at the same table as people who, quite frankly, should be banned from teaching immediately, my response was—well, nothing. Just two silences and a tired, "No institution works; we are an institution, but we have no authority and our hands are tied, and blah, blah, blah..."

Meanwhile, everyone in these schools knows everything: they know who is just showing up to collect a paycheck and pension while counting down the minutes until they can go home to run the side business they actually live off of; they know who shows up in sweatpants; they know who drinks because they've given up on even bothering with the dress code; they know who was discharged from a psychiatric ward but refuses to take medical leave because their doctor suggested "occupational therapy"; they know who sits there idly while students run wild; and they know who fights retirement tooth and nail even though the kids are driving them absolutely insane...

But this silence is so deeply ingrained that people won't even break it on a (more-than-) anonymous forum.

And why is this silence so destructive? Because this kind of solidarity with the slackers throws all those countless hardworking professionals under the bus. By staying silent, educators are grouping themselves in the same bucket as the failures—including the Smith (there's always a Smith) whom the students actually adore and whose classroom atmosphere is wonderful despite being strict and demanding. She’s the only one who doesn't have issues with Mark from 8th grade, whom everyone else rolls their eyes at and kicks out of class daily, or that Jordan (there's always a Jordan) who exhausts himself trying to make sure even the very last student understands basic geometry, or that Perry (there's always a Perry) who organizes two million different extracurricular activities just to ensure the kids aren't hanging out by the wall in front of the local Walmart with some local troublemaker named Fisher.

shadowlynx102 said:Why is this even being tolerated? Honestly—it’s ridiculous. Either everyone gets a link in their signature, or absolutely nobody does! It’s a matter of basic principle, I suppose.

To put it simply—and I’ll be brief here—it’s because that’s what the boss says it is. Period.

It wasn't all that long ago—though it feels like an eternity now—that I actually reached out to ask for quite a bit. I suppose I should probably mention that this whole situation—if you can even call it that—is just incredibly intense. It’s honestly pretty wild how things are unfolding right now. An example of what a clean, commercial link looks like within a moderator's signature. Response. From the highest peak. Is this some sort of minor privilege granted to a moderator as a reward for their volunteer work—and let’s not even get started on the sheer contradiction inherent in the phrase "compensation for volunteering," because I'm certainly no hypocrite—but really, is that the case? 🙂Given that perspective, I suppose this entire discussion is essentially moot—pointless, really. This is a private forum, governed by its own set of rules, and that should be the end of it.

It is honestly quite baffling—if I’m being perfectly candid—why not a single moderator has taken advantage of the professional opportunities presented to them to, say, tuck a link to their own vacation rentals right into their signature. I mean, I guess it just hasn't crossed their minds, or perhaps they're just being overly cautious... but it does seem like a missed opportunity, doesn't it? 😬.

Kate Cox2 said:Look, I am not the principal of this school, and frankly, I couldn't care less how the administration decides to handle their internal affairs...
and that isn't even the point... you are getting hung up on things that are completely irrelevant...

The core issue was my observation regarding the comments from frupy and nosorog—that all your hard work is essentially wasted when you're dealing with parents who simply refuse to cooperate...

But since you are clearly such a brilliant individual with a rebuttal for absolutely everything—I am curious: how would *you* solve these systemic issues in the American education system when you have parents who are too busy being embarrassed by their children's behavior to actually help?

Why on earth would you misrepresent your own words? That is quite simply untrue.

You have stated, on more than one occasion, that schools lack certain famous authorities required to achieve miraculous results. My pointing out what is being blamed for "wrongdoing" is merely an attempt to illustrate just how much authority the school actually possesses, yet chooses not to exercise for various reasons or otherwise.

since you're clearly such a brilliant individual who has a rebuttal for absolutely everything—I'm curious, how exactly would you solve these educational issues regarding parents whose kids are acting out like total delinquents?

There really are only two paths here, which I think can be illustrated quite clearly by looking at a child getting into fights and a father subsequently suing the school.

A school can choose to be persistent—almost terrier-like, if you will—and utilize every single bit of existing authority they have (which, by the way, isn't exactly small; in this specific case, that could mean suing the father for threats, insisting on filing a police report for misconduct, or even pushing for Child Protective Services to get involved); furthermore, I suppose one could argue that "calling parents five, six, or seven times to come pick up their kid" also falls under current school powers—or, perhaps, they just decide to say, "look, we aren't going to deal with this headache for this amount of funding."

Both options are legitimate (and to be most serious: it is a perfectly valid stance to say, "I'm doing a half-hearted job because there is no mechanism to kick me in the teeth and put me on the street")—but, I find it rather unfair to whine about these supposed missing authorities (especially since, if asked directly, you don't seem to have any clue what those authorities actually are) and mostly just shed bitter tears—complaining about everyone indiscriminately without actually doing anything at all.

Emily Gonzalez51 said:Ugh, you are so exhausting. Just because people are aging or dealing with health issues doesn't mean they're doing a bad job; I specifically wrote that NO ONE had complained about anyone, as far as I know.

Besides, you'll be old one day too, and maybe even sick, so I don't get why you lack even a shred of basic empathy for a situation that is completely unavoidable.

Twisting my words to imply some sort of lack of compassion for the elderly is either pure rudeness or a terrifying inability to grasp basic reading comprehension. Pick one.

Having empathy for aging or illness has absolutely nothing to do with insisting on high-quality work. Someone's age or health status shouldn't be used as a variable in this discussion.

BTW, I really hope you aren't teaching English—just imagine showing the sentence "There are many old and sick professors who try as hard as they can." to some colleague in the linguistics department and asking if the phrase "well, it might not be great, but they can't do any better" is somehow implicitly baked into it.

BTW, of course I'm being difficult—anyone who refuses to join the "oh, life is so hard, there's nothing we can do" mutual ass-kissing circle is going to be labeled as difficult.

Kate Cox2 said:They showed up, asked everyone to just disperse peacefully... and there wasn't even a single official report filed. No paperwork, nothing.

There isn't any legal ground to stand on here, honestly. He can file whatever lawsuit he wants, but let’s be real—he isn't going to win a single thing.
Honestly, there isn't even any point in wasting my breath commenting on this second matter...

Exactly what I was thinking. It’s just incredibly frustrating because, frankly, it feels like absolutely none of our institutions are actually doing their jobs lately. Not one single agency seems to be taking any real action at all.
The school, acting as a single entity nested within several larger administrative bodies, possesses the formal authority to issue written warnings and reprimands. And they certainly go ahead and exercise that power. However, in my estimation, such measures carry absolutely no weight whatsoever; they are effectively meaningless gestures that fail to produce any actual change.

If I were to show up at your front door making threats—and then the police arrived and just "did nothing"—would you honestly sit there and tell me that filing a lawsuit makes no sense?

BTW, it would be pretty useful if we could get @drota over here to clarify whether an intervention like that can actually fly without any official reports being filed.

Kate Cox2 said:Of course, I don't expect anyone to suddenly achieve spiritual enlightenment overnight, but perhaps—just perhaps—people might take a moment to actually reflect on their own behavior.

The police were called—though, let's be honest, they didn't actually do a damn thing—and the countersuit was never even filed. To what end? I can't speak to exactly how NASA handles things in this specific instance, but I certainly know how they operate in others; you file a report, and of course, NASA just sits on its hands. Nothing changes. Things remain exactly as they were.

Could we perhaps get some specifics on this supposed "nothing"? I mean—did they just fail to show up entirely? Or did they arrive but neglected to file an official report? Maybe they didn't even issue a misdemeanor citation—even though, let’s be clear, making threats is a criminal offense in this country.

Did someone actually follow up with the precinct to check the status of the report you filed? Did anyone ask why a misdemeanor charge wasn't at least initiated?

the counterclaim wasn't filed—against what?

If his lawsuit is truly as baseless as you claim, then why is it even weighing on you?

Honestly, you should probably just hire an attorney, file your own suit regarding the threats, and handle it that way—why wouldn't you think that would be more effective than dealing with school suspensions or being summoned five, six, or seven times just to pick up your child?

Or, I suppose, maybe certain people just don't want the headache of confronting a "wild" parent. You know how it goes—that subtle attitude of, "Do you have any idea how much I earn?"... ☕

Kate Cox2 said:Look, if we actually passed a law stating that a child under the age of 14 or 16 shouldn't be left home alone, then we would logically need the police or some other federal agency to step in and ensure that child is actually with their parents, rather than just wandering the streets unsupervised.

And while we're on the subject, it wouldn't hurt to mandate parenting seminars for the adults involved, too.
I find myself agreeing with the sentiment regarding the lack of accountability here.🤷

Honestly, everything feels broken...😢 not a single institution in this country seems to be functioning the way they are supposed to.

And isn't a school considered an institution as well?

Emily Gonzalez51 said:My faculty is fairly old. We have plenty of aging and ailing professors who are doing their best. Nobody has specifically complained about anyone, or at least I haven't heard of it.

So, what kind of standard are we actually talking about here? I mean—if an instructor is old and unwell, does that suddenly make it irrelevant whether they’re actually incompetent or simply failing to show up at all? By that logic, our schools basically turn into some sort of charity ward, where students are essentially held hostage by a teacher's medical history.

I suppose you expect a high schooler or a college student to just shrug and say, "Well, you know, my math professor really tried his hardest, even if he was old and sick," and then somehow forgive the fact that the kid still can't add two fractions together?

Can you think of any other profession—especially in the private sector—where people are judged solely on how much they struggle within their own limited capacity rather than the actual quality of the work they produce?

Kate Cox2 said:To start with, maybe some kind of suspension...

If a kid screws up, the parents should be automatically called to come pick them up and take them home immediately. For many people, leaving work is going to be incredibly inconvenient, and then they’re stuck wondering what on earth their child is supposed to be doing for the next seven days while they're barred from school. If nothing else, perhaps that inconvenience might make them actually stop and think about why their child needs to be learning in the first place.

I mean, if you have to get pulled away from your job five, six, or seven times just to go fetch your kid from school, maybe it will finally sink in.🤷(Since, according to American law, children can't be left unsupervised at home until a certain age, a parent either has to stay home with the suspended child or find someone else to watch them.)

I don't know, that’s just the first thing that comes to mind. I’m sure a group of more brilliant minds could come up with much smarter ideas than mine.
But simply writing a warning or a reprimand on a piece of paper doesn't mean anything to these kids (or their parents). That is the only thing schools are allowed to do right now. It's the only sanction available.

And frankly, it's complete nonsense.

So, are you honestly suggesting that a father—one who actually instigated a fight involving his child—is going to suddenly become enlightened and reasonable after being hauled out of work half a dozen times?

I think you have to be kidding me...

i don't know

Exactly—you "don't know"—yet somehow that doesn't stop you from claiming the administration is helpless because they lack the "authority to take concrete action." Honestly, that is just incredibly unprofessional.

Did you call the police when the father stormed in and started making threats? Did you file a countersuit? Did you even notify NASA? The school has every single one of those powers at its disposal.

Kate Cox2 said:We recently dealt with a situation involving an eighth grader—he physically attacked another student, which sparked a full-blown fight. It wasn't an isolated incident; it was just the breaking point after a long string of disruptive behavior, including verbal abuse, arguing with teachers and peers, constant interruptions during lessons, and bullying younger kids.

He was issued a formal reprimand...

The very next day, the boy's father storms into the school. He starts threatening the homeroom teachers, barges into the Principal's office to intimidate her, and then goes as far as filing a lawsuit against the school.

I find myself wondering: where does this aggressive behavior stem from? Where does this level of sheer insolence come from, especially when it’s been going on for years? To me, the answer seems painfully obvious... one can clearly see where the child picked up such an attitude and these behavioral patterns.

That was frupy's point—you could organize five hundred different school projects focused on non-violence, tolerance, and cooperation, and you could talk to these students until you're blue in the face, but if the child returns to a home environment that actively encourages this kind of aggression, the efforts are essentially neutralized.

And what is the end result? Nothing. That student continues to bully his classmates, and the school is left powerless. A paper reprimand might as well be nothing more than last year's snow because we simply don't have the legal authority to take more concrete action.

On the flip side, you have those students who mess up, but they have parents at home who are self-aware enough to realize their child is in the wrong and are willing to work on teaching them appropriate behavior. In those cases—every project, every conversation, and all that hard work you put in actually feels meaningful.

It leads to a very logical question: what specific powers are schools lacking—powers they *should* actually possess—that would allow these cases to be resolved in the blink of an eye? I mean, let's get specific: what should a school be able to do, but currently isn't allowed to do?

Pedophiles? Schizophrenics??? 🤦

By all means, feel free to hand out an Academy Award for literally just reading something.

cosmicskipper39 said:I also have my doubts that the system just decided to pull that image down on its own without anyone flagging it...

I think you’re exaggerating 🙂here.

It's honestly much easier for a moderator to just yank a link than to deal with the headache of processing a formal report.

If you were fully aware of all that, then why did you even bother "setting up" this first one? 🤔

Are you talking about mine? Well, what I said was true 🤣.

I never actually considered that someone might take it seriously—at least, not until I saw that people actually do. 🙄.

I promise I won't joke around in such a primitive way anymore—the kind where some people are allowed to do it while others aren't.

Your approach wasn't primitive; if anything, I found it quite funny.

I don't really think it's a matter of "some being allowed and others not."

urbantinker8 said:🙄
I guess all this self-pity just stems from the fact that we've been catching heat from every single direction for years now. I’m really just speaking for myself here, though. I still genuinely love my job and I have no intention of walking away from it right now, but—yeah—I do feel pretty exhausted and honestly just worn down by the general atmosphere currently prevailing across the country.

This is simply not the case—you’ve taken what was a relatively benign post about the (lack of) rights held by educators and interpreted it as nothing less than pure hatred toward teachers. It reeks of that uncritical, old-school union solidarity, where people view the entire teaching profession more like a religious dogma than anything else.

Or perhaps you’d care to deny that when you’re sitting in the faculty lounge, you're sharing a table and with the very same kind of people you would probably try to keep at least 50 feet away from children if you had the chance tonight?

urbantinker8 said:I’m in on this.

I guess it’s probably just because you’ve never actually given it a shot before.

To put it bluntly—the more an activist describes their job as some high-stakes blend of open-heart surgery and building a spacecraft for NASA, the more they're going to attract equally extreme opinions from the "other side of the aisle."

Now, no sane person is going to deny the actual value that activism brings to the table, but this pervasive tendency toward self-pity—this constant need to play the martyr—is, I suppose, just plain senseless 😁.

Emily Gonzalez51 said:

Nicholas King As specified by Nicholas King:
There is a massive distinction between saying people aren't breaking a sweat and claiming they’re just sitting around sipping lattes. I don't see any evidence that the public school teachers are slacking off, so I certainly won't go as far as to say they're doing nothing all day.

Tvoj The bottom line is this: we’ve reached a verdict. As a school psychologist, I find myself in complete agreement with this position. The sheer lack of logic in these recent rulings is absolutely staggering. It’s like watching a slow-motion train wreck where nobody bothers to check the tracks..

Compared to psychologists, teachers are absolutely overworked. Five back-to-back 45-minute sessions of intense mental strain will drain a person dry, much like an empty gas tank on a long highway trip.

Honestly, I’m reading this and just laughing until I cry.

Emily Gonzalez51 said:Based on more than enough evidence. In every single one of the six schools where I worked as a psychologist, they didn't lift a finger.
And what about you—are you a school psychologist? Please, enlighten me: what exactly is it that you people even do?

Look, there is a massive, gaping chasm between "not breaking a sweat" and "just sitting around drinking coffee all day." I don't even see public school teachers "breaking a sweat" half the time, yet I wouldn't go so far as to say they’re just idling away the hours.

Your conclusion regarding my role as a school psychologist falls right into the same category of generalizations.