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Can spirituality exist without God? in Spirituality · Apr 24, 2008

I’d like to request that the moderator close this thread. It feels like we've entered an unmonitored free-for-all where everyone is just circling the same old drain—talking about God, the universe, free will, consciousness... honestly, it’s just endless repetitive chatter.

"I believe it’s high time this topic was merged into the 'School' section." 🙂
I’m actually leaning on a previous precedent here—specifically, some wise observations and calls made by a moderator in the past.

Looking back at the historical records of this forum:

Quote:
soadfan says: The whole point of this discussion has completely evaporated.

And the moderator noted:

"I think it’s ready to be integrated into 'Master Ivanov's School of Enlightenment'." 😍

''''''This thread has become impossible to follow and has lost all connection to the original post. One 'School' is more than enough for this subforum.
🙂 ''''''

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks! 🙂

Can spirituality exist without God? in Spirituality · Apr 24, 2008

I just uploaded an American translation of the book I AM THAT
by Nisargadatta Maharaj.
Since I'm still getting the hang of this new tech, please let me know if the link actually works!

http://rapidshare.com/files/110006405/JA_SAM__TO.pdf (

Can spirituality exist without God? in Spirituality · Apr 24, 2008

Edward Flores4 said:The experience of "That" really does exist—but unfortunately, there isn't a single thing you can do to go out and grab it. Well, actually, there is one way... you can "die." If you don't realize it right then and there, you'll eventually see that this whole existence was just one incredibly complex, perfectly choreographed game. So, I’m with you regarding your three witnesses, but I honestly feel like experiencing "That" isn't something you can just achieve through various "techniques"—except for one specific scenario, but I'll save that little secret for later...

I can't speak for everyone else, but if you look at what Alan Watts was actually getting at, he didn't claim that realization was some impossible myth. Quite the opposite. He argued time and again that the only real way to actually experience it is to stop chasing it—to basically give up the desire to reach it in the first place. Of course, being who he was, he’d always explain that paradox in such a vivid, colorful, and genuinely entertaining way—usually peppered with those clever little metaphors he was so good at. It makes you wonder, though... if the only "technique" is to have no technique at all, does that mean the lack of a method is actually the method itself?

Actually, it’s more like... well, it becomes a technique only when you consciously choose to do nothing despite having every reason to act. In that sense, it’s clearly a "strategic" move—just another layer of technique, if you will. But I should probably warn you that by looking at it this way, we’re essentially just playing word games and diluting the whole point. The real kicker is this: the number of hours you spend sitting in some specific posture, desperately trying to "stop" your thoughts, isn't going to help you experience "that." Sure, it might have plenty of other beneficial side effects—maybe it helps with focus or just calms the nerves—but it won't lead you directly to realization. Realization is ALWAYS spontaneous, totally unexpected, and more often than not, completely paradoxical. It's because truth—whatever that may be—is almost always found by stripping away its opposite.

Well, we're all leaning in and listening intently, waiting for that joyful news about this rare exception—which sounds like it might actually be the master key to unlocking our true selves.🙂

Can spirituality exist without God? in Spirituality · Apr 24, 2008

I’d like to share a dialogue from what I consider to be one of the most important books in existence, if not the most important. 😲

I AM THAT - by NISARGADATTA MAHARAJ

Conversations with a cigarette vendor from New York City—a man who reached "the other shore."

*****

Fisherman: How can I plan my life using my free will?

Nisargadatta: Why bother planning? Questions like that just reveal inner tension.
Realize that you aren't the master of everything that unfolds.
You can't control the future, except perhaps in purely technical matters.
----------------------------------------------------------------
P: I agree, I'm certainly not the master of all that happens. More like a slave.

NM: Don't be the master, and don't be the slave. Just remain detached.
------------------------------------------------------

P: Does that mean avoiding action altogether?

NM: YOU CANNOT AVOID ACTION. It happens, just like everything else.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

P: But surely I can control my own decisions and choices!
NM: Try it. YOU WILL SOON DISCOVER THAT YOU ARE DOING WHAT YOU MUST.

----------------------------------------------------------

P: But I am able to act according to my free will.

NM. YOU ONLY KNOW YOUR WILL AFTER YOU HAVE ALREADY ACTED.

----------------------------------------------------------------

P: What if I simply remember my desires and decisions, and then act accordingly?

NM: In that case, it is your memory deciding, NOT YOU.
-----------------------------------------------------

P: But doesn't free will actually exist? Am I not free to want things? 😢

NM: Oh, no. You are compelled to want. Did you know that in Hinduism, the very idea of free will doesn't even exist—to the point that the language doesn't even have a word for it!
Will is just attachment; it is fixation. It is a bond.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

P: Then I am free to choose my own boundaries.

NM: First, you have to be free. To be free within the world, you must be free FROM the world. Otherwise, your past is making the decisions for you. You find yourself trapped between what happened and what must happen. You might call that fate or KARMA, but it is never what you call it—freedom.
First, you must return to your true self (experience who you really are—self-realization), and only then can you act from the heart of pure love.

The mind can only help you identify what isn't true. But if you want real, positive knowledge, you have to move beyond the mind. The Absolute is that which transcends the mind.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

P:
Is there anything in the entire universe that is truly worth anything?

NM: Yes. The power of love. 🙂

Can spirituality exist without God? in Spirituality · Apr 24, 2008

It’s honestly fascinating to realize that Hindu philosophy doesn't even have a specific term for "free will." 😲

2)Buddha: Events unfold, actions are carried out, but there is simply no such thing as an individual DOER.

3)Jung— We tend to view our psychological processes as things we can actually control, but if we’re being honest, that's mostly an illusion.!!!. 😲
"We aren't actually living our lives; we're just being lived."
We don't dream; we are the dream itself!

Take a look at how that verb is phrased—it implies that we aren't the ones acting, but rather the objects upon which something else is happening.
I’d add that we don't actually possess the kind of freedom we think we have—it's much like being a character in a dream. We aren't truly pulling the strings; instead, we’re just standing there, observing and witnessing the actions of ourselves and everyone else as they unfold.

4) Ramana Maharshi once said:

Take a look at that statue of a man straining under the weight of the entire world on his shoulders. It looks like he’s doing all the heavy lifting, sweating through the effort just to keep things spinning. But both Atlas and anyone watching him tend to forget one crucial thing: it’s actually the Earth itself providing the foundation for everything.
Look at this figure here—he’s essentially a symbol of the ego. You see that heavy globe he's hoisting? That represents our supposed free will and that sense of "I" we cling to so tightly. The globe itself stands for all the choices we make, but notice the ground beneath him. That earth represents consciousness. Without that foundation, this whole dramatic performance couldn't even exist. It’s the very thing that supports life, the individual, and every choice we make. In truth, it permeates everything; it is everything.

5)
Even Einstein once admitted that he wasn't exactly the "architect" of his theory of relativity; rather, he felt the idea simply came to him. "Outside."Truth has always been there, lying in wait. It’s just that, in the case of a certain carbon-based life form named Einstein, a perfect resonance occurred with that Eternal Truth, allowing it to finally manifest.
KROZ It’s about the essence of Him, rather than just being about him.

Socrates argued long ago that he wasn't acting alone; rather, he was being guided and advised by his "daimon." And just to be clear—please don't go confusing that with a demon! They are two entirely different things.

7) Muslims—
God willing.
If it’s meant to be according to God's will, then it's simply going to happen.

I feel like I could express this more effectively and with a more modern touch—something like, "if the will is there..." I can't quite make sense of that one—it looks like a typo or perhaps a fragment of something else. Could you clarify what you meant? I'm happy to help once I know what we're diving into! You know, I truly believe that if something is meant to happen, it’s going to unfold exactly as it should. After all, isn't the entire universe just one big cosmic joke played at the expense of the individual? 😁 )

Can spirituality exist without God? in Spirituality · Apr 24, 2008

Kenneth Peterson5 said:Look, I don't really have some massive, definitive stance on this whole "problematic mess"; right now, I'm just asking questions—you know, following that old school rule where curiosity doesn't kill the cat.😲😁

I’d love for you to clear a few things up for me:
If the thoughts passing through my head aren't actually *mine*—if they belong to some other "me"—then the whole concept of "self-awareness" starts looking pretty shaky, doesn't it?
Plus, it feels totally backwards to claim we have free will within a "self" that isn't even truly ours to begin with.

These two questions hit home for me, and I really want to share my perspective with myself and everyone else here, because to me, the logic seems perfectly clear.🙂

1) The one thing you absolutely cannot doubt is your own awareness. It is the single most certain thing we possess. It’s the ONLY spiritual truth in the entire world that no one can question. To doubt your own consciousness is, in itself, a process occurring *within* consciousness, which only serves to confirm that awareness exists.🙂

2) The reality is, we don't actually have free will. It honestly surprises me that people cling to the idea of having it when it's so easy to verify for yourself. We aren't debating abstract things like whether angels shave or if the universe has four or ten dimensions.
Since I was once (just like everyone else) under the illusion that I possessed free will,
I can now look back on it.
Here is how it became crystal clear to me that everything just happens on its own.

Notice how you don't say, "I am beating my own heart."!
Instead, you say, "The heart beats. Blood flows."

So why, then, incorrectly do we say, "I am thinking my thoughts"?
When it is blatantly obvious that both thoughts and the heartbeat simply occur by themselves.🙂

--

Consider one more mistake that almost everyone falls into.

99.9999% of people will say, "I had a dream last night."
That is technically wrong, because we didn't dream those things through our own free will; rather, we were the object being dreamed.

Therefore, it would be more accurate to say that we ARE DREAMED. 😉

So, what we should really be saying is:

A dream is happening...

Last night, I was dreamed.🙂
Or,
last night, dreaming happened through me.

Can spirituality exist without God? in Spirituality · Apr 23, 2008

"Quote:"

Edward Flores4 said:No problem.

Well, if you define using common sense, logic, and intuition as a "spiritual technique"—then sure, I guess so... but personally, I just call it being rational and following my gut. 😁

"Understanding is not a point of view"
Marshall McLuhan

When you read my post, you grasped the process—the analogy, specifically. But there’s a massive difference between understanding a concept, executing a method, and truly having an insight. Techniques require action, they take time, and all that extra effort... but seeing reality for what it actually is requires you to stop "doing." It’s about simply ceasing to project your own biases and fears onto the world; once you stop doing that, reality becomes visible instantly. Honestly, maintaining an illusion takes a ton of effort, energy, and mental bandwidth. That constant striving is exactly the "technique" you're already practicing. There's really no point in swapping one method for another—whether it's something Eastern, Islamic, or Jungian... the goal is to move past techniques altogether. The whole idea is just to *be* and to reflect, rather than to constantly practice and interpret everything.

I'm honestly not sure how else to put this... if that doesn't make enough sense, then at least one of us isn't thinking straight. 😁

I’m with you on this one. I’d go so far as to say we’re actually standing on very similar ground, even if we’re using different metaphors to describe it.

I have a few questions:

How do you personally process—or even react to—those people who insist there’s always "something more"? You know the type: they claim that our understanding, whether it's mine, yours, or anyone else's, can never truly be the final destination. Even when things finally seem to settle, they argue we haven't reached the end. What's your take on that?
That’s exactly what I’ve been trying to drive home in my recent posts.

I’m just drifting through this world—or maybe I'm more like a leaf, tossed about by whatever breeze decides to pick up. 😁 I recently stumbled upon some profound insights from Buddha, along with some teachings from a cigarette vendor in Mumbai named Nisargadatta. Then there’s this woman, Bernadette, who claims she can see what lies beyond—insisting that they all exist in "that place" somewhere else.
They aren't exactly saying there’s anything wrong with you just because you decided to take a break while someone else keeps pushing through their practice.
But they can testify to it—to that actual realization, that direct experience of "THAT."
It’s pretty telling how they both use the exact same language and descriptions. It’s the exact same situation. Even though they’ve never actually met.
Some people would argue that this whole reality we’re living in—you, me, and everyone else who isn't "over there"—is nothing more than one big, beautiful illusion.
It’s something everyone eventually has to face, simply because the game is rigged from the start.

2) There are certain people, particularly here in the States, who literally... For sale. So, here’s my take on your "understanding"—that whole idea of "stopping." It feels a bit like you're selling this concept that everything is already fine and you can just... stop and exist. Like, you don't even need to bother with any specific techniques because you've essentially already arrived.

It all started with Alan Watts, but these days, it’s turned into a full-blown industry. You've got guys like Andrew Cohen, Gangaji, and Satyam Nadeen leading the charge—along with a whole host of others popping up like mushrooms after a heavy rain on the American spiritual marketplace.

Just to be clear, they aren't claiming to be one and the same. Special. They actually achieved more than just putting things on hold and trying to make sense of it all.

My three main witnesses—Buddha, Nisargadatta, and Aunt Bernadette—wouldn't hesitate to back me up on this one.
What if there’s actually something more to discover once we move past the stage of understanding and finally learn how to just stop?

So, you're suggesting we just ditch the techniques altogether? Alright, I hear you. I think I'm starting to see where you're coming from.
But how exactly are you going to respond to that latest riddle from the Sphinx?

Isn't choosing to stay out of politics actually a political stance in itself?
In other words...

Isn't non-doing actually its own kind of technique? I mean, just like any other method, choosing to step back and let things be is a deliberate form of action in itself. 🙂

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? I'd love to hear your take.

The Game of Losing Yourself in Spirituality · Jan 9, 2006

I’d like to give our interested readers a heads-up that Ryan Wilson2 and placidharbor7 have already traded a few opening shots regarding the low standards at the IMF...

Also, just a gentle reminder of what happened here recently, where both gentlemen ended up leaving the audience hanging without clear answers or any real shift in their positions.

So, I’m calling on them to keep this match going right here 🙂

=====

Now, Ryan Wilson2, let's not get ahead of ourselves quite so fast...

As the moderator, coordinator, and referee of this match—which I know the audience is following with bated breath—I wouldn't be quite so quick to pass judgment.

It seems to me that placidharbor7's little remark wasn't intended as an insult, especially since it was accompanied by a goofy smiley face 😬 which suggests there was no real malice behind it.

I am calling on Ryan Wilson2, in the interest of tennis, the fans, the supporters, 🙂 and indeed the younger generations, to continue this match. As for placidharbor7, I’d advise him to watch his tongue; much like someone from Meklenburg might find out, he could eventually face financial penalties or, in the worst-case scenario, lose the match entirely.
***

Therefore, I’m calling upon both Ryan Wilson2 and placidharbor7 ...to return to the tennis court of this forum.

For instance, I would ask placidharbor7 to respond, in the interest of public clarity, to Ryan Wilson2's sharp return: Baphomet-BUILD your tower craftsmanship

Specifically, how does placidharbor7 view the issue of proselytizing or being overbearing when spreading spiritual teachings? Is he and his circle of students perhaps acting somewhat like "Master Jehovah's Witnesses"? 😁

Ryan Wilson2, please stay focused and present in this match. 😉
Because that is what the fans are waiting for most of all 🙂—they will certainly be disappointed if they don't see HIM and his heavy blow—pardon me, his racket—performing at full strength and in action. 😁

The Game of Losing Yourself in Spirituality · Jan 4, 2006

Ryan Wilson2 said:It feels like the whole game just hit a dead end because the master got disqualified way too early for using profanity.

For those of you who aren't in the loop, "vafankulo" is just an Italian way of saying "f*** off."

Game, set, match.

Ryan Wilson2, please, slow down just a little bit...

As the moderator, coordinator, and official judge for this highly anticipated matchup that everyone is watching so closely, I wouldn't be quite so quick to make such a definitive call.

It honestly seems to me that placidharbor7's comment wasn't actually meant as an insult, especially since he paired it with that grinning emoji. 😬 It’s all about the context, which really shows that there was never any intention to be insulting.

I’m calling on Biff here—for the sake of the game, the fans, and all the supporters out there. 🙂 To the younger generation out there: keep this match going! As for John, I’d suggest being a little more careful with that long tongue of yours. If you aren't careful, you might end up like McKinroe—facing some serious financial penalties or, in the worst-case scenario, losing the match entirely.
***

So, I’m officially calling on Ryan Wilson2 and placidharbor7 to make an appearance. It’s high time you two returned to the tennis forum!

Honestly, I think NPR should reach out to John and have him address the public regarding this messy Baphomet situation. It’s time for some transparency.To hell with that "tower craftsmanship" nonsense!

So, how does John actually view the whole issue of proselytizing—or even just being pushy—when it comes to spreading spiritual teachings? I mean, is he and his circle of master students essentially acting like some kind of high-level, spiritual version of Jehovah's Witnesses? 😁

Let's hope Baphmet stays focused and dialed in for this match. 😉
Because, first and foremost, that's what the female fans are expecting. 🙂 What kind of disappointment are we looking at if he and his crew end up failing? I don't quite follow—could you clarify what you mean by "BATINU"? I want to make sure I'm on the right page before I jump in! I'm afraid they aren't seeing the full potential of the racket—not even partially. 😁

The Game of Losing Yourself in Spirituality · Jan 4, 2006

Ryan Wilson2 The user said:All you’re missing now is having Tower Craftsmanship in your hands.

Well, I have to say, Buff is really hitting that ball back with some serious heat! 😁

To my fellow sports enthusiasts on this forum, now that the dust has settled on that electric match between John vs. Soto...
Get ready—there’s a massive tennis showdown on the horizon!

The most relentless critic on this forum. 🙂 placidharbor7

Against.

The baseline player. 🙂 Baphomet's

------------------
If hiddenpuma75 were standing up at the Conference right now, he’d probably introduce these two forum legends like this:
______________

placidharbor7

Something a little more seasoned. placidharbor7 McKinroe is a true LIVING LEGEND on this forum. He’s got that Sly, self-assured, and slightly prickly personality—much like a talkative, high-spirited American. With a massive Stellium in his 12th house, his strikes carry an incredible amount of power. placidharbor7 Before even stepping into the finals, he had already outmaneuvered a massive lineup of heavyweights in philosophy and religion—both from here at home and abroad. We're talking about icons like Ken Wilber, Andrew Cohen, Satyam, Klimakos-Joshneklikos, Patrick, Dustin, Aurora, Garrison, Tobias, Gadora, and IL. He really held his own against some serious thinkers.
The greatest strength of placidharbor7 lies in his inexhaustible energy and that uncanny ability to rally and return shots until he’s practically retired. It’s a running joke that half of his opponents have been carried off on stretchers from pure exhaustion while he was still just getting warmed up. Because of his relentless, aggressive style of play, the media has dubbed him... Atkins
Master Ivan, our resident tennis guru, enjoys incredibly strong support from everyone at his Own Tennis School—though I have to say, his loudest cheerleaders are definitely the young grizzlies. 🙂 Even those teenage years were full of Polyhymno. 🎉

***
Ryan Wilson2

On the other hand, we have someone a bit younger, though they certainly possess a certain charm that appeals to everyone. 😁 I honestly think we should take a moment to consider the nuances here. It’s one of those things that seems straightforward on the surface, but once you really start peeling back the layers, there's a lot more to unpack than most people realize. I might be overthinking it—that's probably just my way—but I truly believe there's a subtle elegance in how this all plays out if you look closely enough. Ryan Wilson2 😈 If you ask me who the Björn Borg of this forum and this whole tennis madness really is, I’d have to say it's Ryan Wilson2. With the moon currently in goat, he’s just radiating that signature cool, effortless composure.
He’s that kind of player—someone who fires off short, lethal shots with incredible precision. People usually just call him: A sharp eye and a steady hand.
In the stands, Ryan Wilson2 always enjoys incredible support from his huge following of female fans gathered in Baphomet's fan club. Big BUBIS 🙂 They provide him with that massive psychological boost he needs during those high-stakes, nail-biting moments in the middle of intense matches. He’s been affectionately nicknamed for it. DEFENDAR'S Baphomet Ryan Wilson2 is playing a baseline game.
Some commentators are pointing out that the secret weapon behind all of Baphmet's successes is actually his mysterious Poreč Manager BALKANIJAN PIMP. ☕ He’s the absolute master of the verbal game, using his psychological edge and endless chatter across the board—whether he's talking to the media, the refs, or the crowd—to subtly tilt the momentum in Baphmet's favor.

All things considered, we’re looking at a true match of the century. This isn't just about sports; it’s an opportunity for fans to actually learn something about tennis—and maybe even a little bit about life—just by watching this massive clash between two absolute legends of the game.

Let the games begin!!

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Oct 9, 2005

placidharbor7 said:"

That lady isn't being dishonest, folks.

..............

Because—wherever you find true emptiness, you won't find "you," nor will you find any sense of lightness."
(placidharbor7)

The "experience of emptiness" is actually one of the greatest human fears out there.

Our friend Trabunjarka has only just "touched" the periphery, and she was absolutely stunned by it.

Her mental projection of "Christ" was essentially her way of pulling herself out of the oncoming dread.

So, let's not hold it against her.👋

Easy now, placidharbor7...

What you mentioned is certainly true,

BUT...

...

but...

...
well,
it's not that...
rather...
it's more like... 😁 )

This is really just the first chapter—the very first stop on the journey she’s been traveling and documenting.

Because that key sentence above says it all...

However, further annihilation was in the cards."

So,

the fear is coming... and that version of Christ YOU MENTIONED won't be there to catch her.

(If I can slip in a quick spoiler while I'm at it: THAT encounter—that meeting with the "INEXPLICABLE EMPTINESS"—is what happens in Chapter 4.
The issue is that she spends fourteen pages describing this in her book, whereas the guy in the link I shared summarized the whole thing in half a page. Bernadette's writing is so refined, subtle, and fresh; she has a certain grace to her prose, much like our own placidharbor7.

This other guy is just reporting facts, which causes him to lose all that drama and depth that our dear Bernadette captures so beautifully.

So,

...

keep reading along the WHOLE journey of our dear "aunty."👋

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Oct 4, 2005

Karen Sanchez19 said:I was actually expecting an American translation 😉 🙂

But honestly, I find it pretty strange that you didn't ask for a musical playlist too 🙄

Poor mom, having to deal with you 🙂

Poor wife, stuck with you 🙂

And poor me, having to endure you 😁 🙂

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Oct 4, 2005

Karen Sanchez19 said:I already asked you once—just quote her experience!🙂

Faster, faster, get a move on!🙂 🙂 🙂 😬

But Karen, this isn't just ONE single experience; it’s an entire journey.

***
If you look at that link, the first chapter gives you ONE EXPERIENCE and a description of it (that inner stillness)
but that’s just the first stop on the map...

The book actually contains about "123" different experiences.

***

Chapter 1

Roberts describes a quality of silence she had known on occasions, which
was so total as to evoke fear, annihilation, point of no return. Always
she would return to her usual self, warding off the fear through willful
thoughts of God, thus breaking the silence.

One day, however, that silence could not be broken, for the fear did not
come. And so there was no reason to return to the relationship between
self and God.

Roberts simply remained in that great silence.

For 8 days the silence rendered her almost unable to function. There
were moments of exhaustion and near black-out. Every chore had to be
done with great attention to every detail.

By the 9th day, Roberts was able to function as usual, but she noticed a
part of her mind had closed down. She had become emptied of the past and
come to live in the present moment.

Trying to understand that silence, Roberts First perceived IT to be a
kind of absorption into god. Then, after a month, she revised her
perception to be one of "seeing", a kind of opening-up, not a closing
down.

She soon discarded that perception and decided to research The works of John of The Cross
. There she found nothing describing her experience.

Coming home that day from the library, Roberts turned her gaze inward
and saw there was no longer a center, no longer a self. There was
emptiness. She felt great joy and lightness with this knowledge. She
decided that this emptiness and joy was Christ. She could live forever
with that. However, further annihilation was in the cards.

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Oct 4, 2005

Karen Sanchez19 said:Look, I already asked you once—just quote her experience!🙂

Faster. Faster, move it along!🙂 🙂 🙂 😬

Man, listen, I already gave you the link above where some guy provides detailed quotes from the book along with his own commentary.

You've basically wasted 30 days of my typing time here.

And please, realize that this isn't just "ONE single experience" as you seem to think.

--look, it’s like the story of the Ramayana and the cow; it’s an "experience of seeing the Ramayana and the cow."

It's actually something I can't even put into words for you right now, 🙂 so just read what's there.

Ask questions about anything you don't understand, but please, don't make it my job to explain everything.😁

**
Honestly, I'm genuinely curious: once you've finished reading everything, HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE "her experience" to me or anyone else?🙂

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Oct 4, 2005

Even for Bernadette Roberts, it’s pretty surreal that everyone read her book and interpreted her "inner journey" in such vastly different ways.

But does anyone else notice that it was exactly what she claimed it was?!

It was a Christian experience—because, in her own words, it was the "only possible view I could have of it."

When she asked her friends, "Don't you see that this is also about a Christian experience?"

They were totally honest with her and said that

she doesn't quote Scripture once 😉 😁

nor does she ever mention Jesus. 😉

So, much like Professor Baltazar zamisliti, she just 😁

imagined that Christ was present in everything that happened to her. 😕

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Oct 4, 2005

I just did a quick skim of the link above,

and I noticed that both the author and the reviewer of her book were pretty dry. If I recall correctly, they missed some of the more interesting details that I think are actually worth knowing—though I’ll be laying them out here for those who aren't fluent in English.

Here are a few key highlights from the book...

***
On page 127, there's this really fascinating account of how her friends reacted when she first showed them the manuscript.

...one friend experienced reading her work as a Buddhist experience.

Another described it as being "purely Vedanta."

A third person, much like a blunt critic you might see on a late-night talk show,😁 brutally claimed that the book was nothing more than a deep dive into a midlife existential crisis.😂

- A fourth friend found the whole thing to be a complete enigma.

And a fifth suggested it felt like some sort of psychotic episode.

However, Bernadette responds quite skillfully to that, noting that no one even realized anything unusual was happening to her because

One friend was actually stunned that Bernadette was undergoing such intense internal processes, especially since they met up frequently and had perfectly normal conversations.

There was simply no change in her personality or any atypical behavior to signal what was going on.

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Oct 4, 2005

Think of this as a Google search engine for my own mind, currently running on

The specific query is

the experience of no-self + an excerpt from 😉

He shared this link, so please take a moment to read through it and share your thoughts.

Honestly, this guy covered everything you’d ever need to know, including all those nagging questions Grizli always asks.

It pulls directly from the writings of Bernadette Roberts—so dive in, pull out some insights, and let's discuss.

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Oct 4, 2005

Alright, let’s push off in our little boat... using the words of Auntie Bernadette

Row, grizzly, row!! 😁

***

(I'll be translating the parts I've underlined here

—sometimes I'll put it into plain English, and other times I'll just leave it in the original so my ears can enjoy it

***
The book is

EXPERIENCE OF NO SELF by BERNADETTE ROBERTS (revised edition published in 1993)

(The author was born in 1931, she's a former Catholic nun, and a mother of four)
(You can Google the rest if you're curious!)

***

INTRODUCTION

This is a personal account of a two-year journey, during which I experienced the total falling away of everything I could possibly call "self."

...

I NEVER EVEN SUSPECTED IT EXISTED.

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Oct 4, 2005

I’ve been waiting for a moment of free time to share some vital insights from Bernadette Roberts’ kitchen, but I just can't seem to find the right balance.
I am completely overwhelmed lately 😁

I'm going to try to figure out how to navigate this via an e-download system 😉 (placidharbor7, you probably have no clue what I'm talking about 🙂 just ask Karen Sanchez19 😉
I’ll be adding more little bits every day

**
Here is a brief response I sent a few days ago to our friend Karen Sanchez19, who is impatiently waiting for the translation and keeps nudging me

***

''The book addresses that exact topic you opened up—the one nobody answered—which is spiritual experiences.

Not even Buddha, nor RAMANA MAHARSHI, nor St. Paul, nor Nisargadatta actually describe their own inner lives.
This lady presents it so convincingly; she essentially provides an ''anatomy of enlightenment.''

***

And now, as an introduction for both Karen Sanchez19 and all of you on the forum, I’d add this..

-St. Paul mentions experiencing things he simply cannot put into words.

-Muhammad says the angel Gabriel spoke to him.😲>

-Buddha supposedly spent 49 days deciding whether or not to even begin teaching people about his discovery (though is that fact or legend?)

-Indian pundits, mystics, enlightened ones, frauds, and gurus...

Yogananda, Osho, Krishnamurti, Ramana Maharshi, Balsekar, Papaji, Nisargadatta, Sai Baba 😁

They all tend to hide the very thing we are all searching for behind a veil.

It’s like asking, ''What are Mom and Dad doing behind closed doors?'' 😁>

***
Well, Bernadette Roberts has stripped everything bare and published what I'd call a ''spiritual exposé'' (minus the actual sex 😁

as they might say back home...

I want to tell you through these somewhat surreal descriptions that she is the first to provide a complete, clear anatomy and a roadmap of the ''non-self experience.''

And she does it without all those usual fantasies and clichés about virgins and doves, or the angel Gabriel, or that overwhelming sense of divine love from the Holy Spirit or the Sacred Heart.''

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Sep 18, 2005

Karen Sanchez19 said:UNBELIEVABLE:

It’s all just pure speculation regarding that lady... and honestly, I haven't even read a single sentence she actually wrote here.🙄

Here is that one for the UNATTENTIVE, WINTER-SLEEPING Karen Sanchez19! 🙂

Which one? 🙂 While Auntie Bernadetta is busy sharing her wisdom, let's go back to basics and review lesson one:

***
I’m going to translate that section where she explains how she was completely caught off guard—mostly because mainstream Christianity doesn't actually teach anything about this kind of experience. It fails to prepare both the laypeople and the clergy for what "THAT" truly entails.

I was honestly struck by how she had absolutely no background in Buddhism or any of Buddha’s teachings, yet somehow "stumbled" right into his profound lessons on the five skandhas. It felt like such a meaningful coincidence.

And then there’s the whole concept of Anatta—the idea of "no-self."

She finally realized that she was going through the exact same thing he was—that same moment of awakening.

I actually just finished reading that chapter a few hours ago, so I wanted to share a few snippets of her words—though please bear in mind this is just my own rough translation of them.

- These are some of the insights pulled from her third book—*What Is Self?*

I can't quite wrap my head around what you mean by "str 114." Are we talking about a specific page number in a book, a highway designation, or perhaps a technical code? If you could give me a little more context, I’d be happy to jump in and chat about it!
My own journey into Buddhism wasn't some grand, lightning-bolt moment of enlightenment. It was much more of a slow burn—a gradual realization that the noise of modern life was getting too loud to ignore. For a long time, I felt like I was just running on a treadmill, constantly chasing the next milestone, thinking that once I reached a certain goal, I’d finally feel "complete." But the more I achieved, the more I realized that the goalposts kept moving. That’s when I started looking into Eastern philosophy, searching for something that offered more than just a temporary high. Finding Buddhism felt less like learning something new and more like remembering something I had forgotten about how to actually live. It wasn't an overnight transformation, either. There were plenty of days where my mind felt like a chaotic browser window with fifty tabs open at once. But through practice, I began to understand that peace isn't about finding a world without noise; it's about finding a way to stay centered while the noise is happening around you. It's been a humbling, sometimes frustrating, but ultimately incredibly rewarding process of unlearning old habits and learning how to simply be present.

''.....

Who on earth actually came up with this teaching about the five skandhas? Whoever did, they clearly knew exactly what it felt like to experience that permanent loss of the skandhas...

...
It’s funny how things work out. I stumbled upon Buddha’s teaching regarding the Five Skandhas—specifically that comparison where he describes the loss of self as being like the collapse of a house's ridgepole—and honestly? It felt like everything clicked. I suddenly felt like I had finally grasped exactly what I needed to know about Buddhism.

There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind: Buddhism holds a profound and incredibly heavy truth.

In my opinion, that’s easily the single most significant contribution Buddhism has made to humanity.

I don't think we truly grasp just how monumental, profound, and earth-shattering this truth actually is.
It’s funny how we tend to take so many things for granted, isn't it? We breeze through life assuming everything will just stay the way it is, without ever really pausing to realize just how much effort, struggle, and sheer luck it actually took to get where we are.

Tone and his books dive deep into the concepts of the Self and consciousness, but if you ask me, none of those authors actually grasped or truly experienced what those things are all about.

...

When Buddha first proclaimed that there is no eternal self, he was speaking from a place of direct experience—specifically, what comes after reaching enlightenment. He was describing that moment when the concept of the ATMAN, or the permanent soul, finally falls away.
So, it’s a mistake to fall into the trap of believing that the "self" doesn't exist at all.
The idea of non-self or the absence of Atman feels completely hollow if it requires us to deny the reality of our own lived experience.
So, even though Buddha took that extra leap beyond the Hindu realization of Atman, you can't actually make that jump unless you’ve first realized Atman. It’s a bit of a paradox, isn't it? But it makes sense—to experience the loss of self, there has to be a "self" there to begin with. That's just how the mechanics of it work.
If the Atman eventually dissolves or fades away, then it clearly isn't the Absolute or Brahman.
What we mistakenly take to be our own sense of ownership is nothing more than that grand illusion we discussed before—a total hoax that masquerades as being "ours."
The term "illusion" doesn't necessarily mean that ownership itself is some big lie. It’s more about the idea that what we think we own is just a relative truth, rather than an absolute one.

....

Consciousness isn't actually the tool we use to grasp our true selves; rather, its only real function is to reveal everything that we are *not*.