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Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Sep 18, 2005

grizli said:UNBELIEVABLE:

It’s all just pure speculation about this lady... and I haven't even read a single sentence she wrote right here in this thread...🙄

Good grief, how can someone be so careless—honestly, it feels almost ungrateful to the universe!🙄 😠

Right there on the very first page, you have a whole collection of other people's hard work laid out for you. There are three different links provided regarding her (one is even a recent interview).

And on that same opening page of this thread, hiddenpuma75 actually translated page 114 of her book, where SHE explains exactly why Buddha is so significant and what his major breakthrough actually was.

(Post from Aug 31, 4:25 PM)

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Sep 17, 2005

Melissa Bennett4 said:What exactly do you have from all that?

Well, what the goddess Eris had was a bit of boredom. She didn't feel like spending the evening alone, so she kicked off this whole game where she hides herself behind ten thousand different things.

🙂

The real kicker is that she actually forgot she did it just to make the game more interesting. 😉

👋

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Sep 17, 2005

hiddenpuma75 said:Good grief, why on earth is the title emphasizing "mother of four" so blatantly?
The title itself is just being descriptive.

It’s all about baiting the people who are easily misled. 🙂

Different folks respond to different hooks—various vibes, crystal resets, you name it.

Some people resonate with

flowers,
others are swayed by a nice dinner and sweet talk,
some go for the balance in their Chase account,
and then there are those who are just looking for a thrill. 🙂

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Sep 17, 2005

John said:🙂 Look, hiddenpuma75, there's really no need to worry about translating everything from English.
Just share what’s in the original; everyone here will be able to follow along just fine.😎

It isn't actually a struggle to translate from English—whether I'm translating or just transcribing the original—it's more that I feel this mental resistance when trying to "patch together" pieces of a book that was meant to be a single, cohesive journey.

If you are going to mention those profound, true insights that emerged under the watchful, violent eyes of surrounding religious factions, then every single word and thought of those MAGNIFICENT SUPERHUMANS needs to be weighed with extreme care.

Sometimes high-level cryptography is a necessity—it was just so DAMN HARD TO TESTIFY TO ONE'S AWAKENING during those earlier, serene eras.👋

But Bernadette Roberts is quite a modern woman.

Her language is straightforward, and her descriptions of "THAT" experience are detailed and honest.
She uses real-life examples, conversations with neighbors and friends, and even includes the critiques and questions directed at her.

There aren't any tired Christian clichés used here; no talk of virgins, doves, or the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...

I'm certain you've noticed, much like I have in my own ignorance, how many American believers and their writers—even in their best works—tend to lean heavily on...

all that emotion, repetitive phrasing, and performative sentimentality that doesn't actually mean much.

That's just a certain style of writing...

"The Holy Spirit and the grace of Jesus Christ showed me how much God loves me."

Or perhaps someone adds a little philosophical seasoning:

"Through the agency of the Holy Spirit, the ontology of man in the person of Jesus Christ found a definitive direction which, through the mystery of the Eucharist, leads all souls toward divine salvation."🙄

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Sep 16, 2005

Until a person truly reaches that moment of realization, neither the Bible nor the Quran can offer them any real help.

But once that breakthrough happens? Honestly, they won't even need the Bible or the Quran anymore.

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Sep 16, 2005

ambereagle642 said:Honestly, how does hiddenpuma75 seem to know everything there is to know!?

🙂

Being able to feel genuine wonder is actually one of the first signs of waking up!
And the second sign? It’s being able to write clearly and concisely.

Luke, please accept my sincere praise

and I'll give you extra credit just for your dedication. 😁

Consider this your diploma in smiling. 😁

👋

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Sep 16, 2005

Karen Sanchez19 said:Bored yet?😕

You seem to have forgotten that even the goddess Eris found herself feeling a bit lonely tonight—so she decided on some ABSOLUTE chaos and went hiding within ten thousand different things just to keep us on our toes.🙂

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Sep 16, 2005

If that Zen master hadn't passed away, he’d probably just interrupt Brother Vance or those other philosophers of ours mid-sentence (you know, that whole "nothingness and everything" crew 🙂)

And he would have delivered all this wisdom with such effortless grace, almost like...

A splash.
A sudden leap.
Buck!

As for Karen Sanchez19—our resident Zen master, though perhaps a bit lost in the late 20th century

She laid out that sense of UNRAVELING like this...

ABSOLUTE.
Pure boredom.
Click the forum! 🙂

And then there's aurora aurea

God.
Light, darkness, angels, and now even the teeth...
And then he’d just flood us with a million blue-colored quotes 😁

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Sep 16, 2005

Enchi used to absolutely love a good serving of Plotinus’s soup. She’d often ask me to write it out for her again, so I figured I’d offer a warm bowl to all of you too:''

***

I really want to introduce you to a dear friend of mine. I think our conversation could be much richer if we brought some clarity through the lens of..

In my humble opinion

the only truly enlightened philosopher in the West

So...

Plotinus says

(And please, for the thousandth and first time, don't confuse him with Plato—though I know 999 out of 1000 people will!)

(Just a quick note—Plotinus actually refers to ultimate truth, that supreme reality, as THE ONE)

(To draw a parallel with Eastern thought, we have the concept of the Tao from ancient sages who left us the treasure known as the Tao Te Ching)

Anyway,

Plotinus 🙂

1) THE ONE is not a personal God (whom Plotinus respectfully refers to as the Cosmic Soul)

2)THE ONE is that first, most primal thing—existing even before Being itself

3) THE ONE isn't even "one," nor is it even "singular"

4) THE ONE is impossible to describe because it is radically simple—simpler than unity itself...

Attempting to describe THE ONE is practically "profanity," according to a cautious Plotinus

5) In our very essence, we are THE ONE overflowing into this experience.

We humans are simply the Love of THE ONE for the clear Light of what IT is.

6) The soul isn't "in" the universe; rather, the universe is "in" the soul.

7) Similarly, THE ONE isn't found within any being or phenomenon; instead, all phenomena exist WITHIN THE ONE.

8) THE ONE is an activity, yet in itself, it serves no function.

9) THE ONE is perfect because it seeks nothing and needs nothing... and yet, Plotinus suggests that THE ONE is alluring, which we might imagine as a constant state of SUPER-SATURATION.
And yet, this "super-saturated overflowing" of THE ONE is still—simply—THE ONE.

10) Plotinus calls awakening "the flight of the Alone to the Alone"

(Much like how a Zen master speaks of red flowers blooming RED)

11) Plotinus drives home the point about THE ONE with this paradox:

THE ONE IS IMMANENT THROUGH ITS VERY TRANSCENDENCE

12) But...

THE ONE TRANSCENDS TRANSCENDENCE ITSELF 😲

....

****

Man, this guy Plotinus is just way too brilliant for his own good—a total genius and a bit of a wild card myself!

So, I'll leave you to it. Take a little breather from the subtle depth of his words and the implications they stir up...

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Sep 16, 2005

So, let’s tread carefully here and try navigating by the maps drawn by those who have already made this journey—people who described this exact same experience.

One term that's become pretty popular among us is...

The Kingdom of Heaven (out West)

Over on the East Coast, they call that Adventist.

Nonduality (Nondual Consciousness)

But at the end of the day, by definition—and I mean by default—he simply can't be captured using our dualistic human language.

It’s just something you can do on your own. It’s going to happen.

***
Chögyam Trungpa refers to this state as nondual consciousness.

"Tantra" or "Luminosity"? Which one captures it better?

While other Buddhists might reach for that familiar, well-known term—Nirvana—to describe it...

***

Paramahansa Yogananda refers to it as the Cosmic Soul.

The old master Plotinus simply referred to it as "the ONE."

I’d probably translate that as "ONENESS," though I suppose you could also go with "UNITY" or even just "SINGULARITY."

***
Our "patron saint."

Raman Maharshi wrote:

The world is nothing more than an illusion.
Brahman is the only true reality.
The entire world is simply Brahman.

We could honestly sit here and debate this topic until we both hit retirement age.

I have a feeling that once you get to that third sentence, both the philosophers and my brother are going to start lecturing me about how it completely contradicts the first two.

The third sentence describes the ultimate state of nondual realization—that profound moment where the formless merges completely with the manifested world around us.
The Tao, the One, the Absolute—it completely transcends all realms of existence, yet somehow, it simultaneously encompasses every single one of them. 🙂

**

If that Zen master had actually been around to hear Brother Vas or our local philosophers preach, he probably would have just walked off the stage mid-sentence. Honestly, listening to those "nothingness and nobody" types is enough to make anyone want to head for the exit! 🙂)

And he delivered all that wisdom with such elegance, just like...

I'm just checking in.
Don't jump the gun.
Buck!

Karen Sanchez19 — Zen Master CORAVA KOKA, late 20th century era.

He wrote that exactly the same way as...

Absolutely.
I'm bored out of my mind.
Click through to the forum! 🙂

A golden dawn.

God.
Light, darkness, angels... and now we’re all just grinding our teeth.
And then he just went ahead and dropped a million blue-colored quotes all at once. 😁

***
Meister Eckhart—honestly, he might just be the greatest Christian practitioner to ever walk the earth.
It’s what people call the nondual level.

The Deitas—or the Godhead, if you want to be precise—is that level of existence that sits even higher than what we typically mean when we just say "God."

Eckhart famously offered up his most profound prayer:

God, please, just set me free! ''

Zarko recommended this prayer to our climate activist and basically "cursed" him by saying it had to be his very last one.

When Eckhart talks about prayer, he’s really calling for us to break free from this concept of God that belongs to Thomas Aquinas—that version of God built entirely on logic, intellect, and theological reasoning. It’s that "God of the theologians," if you will, the one we try to trap within our own mental frameworks and rationalizations.

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Sep 16, 2005

Soto and Ivan placed their orders for the main course a while ago, straight from Bernadette Roberts' kitchen

But since hiddenpuma75 is acting as head chef, he’s currently tied up with our Verizon guests and a mountain of other orders

- so, while my dear guests and friends wait 🙂 for that main course, I ask for your patience given how packed the restaurant is. In the meantime, I’ll be serving an important appetizer ordered by our friend Karen Sanchez19

In fact, my waiter noted that when Karen Sanchez19 looked over the menu, she asked with genuine confusion:

''OWNERSHIP? WHAT ON EARTH DOES "OWNERSHIP" EVEN MEAN NOW?'' 😕

***
So, for the appetizer, I suggest 🙂 ''fried Termites'' 😁 and a little session of "termiteology" 😁 where we, like those very termites, break down the tiniest components of the terms we use

***

Bernadette Roberts refers to the non-dual level as "no-self," mainly because she couldn't find any trace of herself when she ''looked inward,'' and she simply didn't know what else to call it.

Her choice of words, however, was a bit unfortunate, because the concept of

NON-SELF makes it sound as if self-awareness has been annihilated, which is absolutely NOT the case.

Of course, plenty of other terms exist, but the Termites attack every single one. No concept is safe from the logical flaws and the relentless gnawing of the termites generated by the MOTHER OF ALL TERMS AND TERMITES

THE MIND.

**

Because, as Karen Sanchez19 so despondently and resignedly remarked

-IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO SAY THAT —or, as hiddenpuma75 put it in different words

only this statement is true:

A=A

And anyone who dares to leave the solid ground of that certainty to sail into the ocean of labeling and speculation risks being devoured by the sharks of reason.

***

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Sep 1, 2005

Daigu said:Buddha experienced NOTHING, hiddenpuma75.
Which means Sister Bernadette couldn't have had the same experience.

The double negatives in our language feel a bit clunky—honestly, I think English handles those nuances much more smoothly.

anyway

My current understanding of this whole "not knowing" thing leads me to this:

Buddha experienced NOTHING, Daigu.
Therefore, the late, honorable Sister Bernadette could have absolutely experienced the same thing.

(And she described THAT state incredibly vividly and convincingly; her first and finest work, EXPERIENCE of NO SELF, is the best testament to that.)

I REALLY THINK IT'S TOO EARLY TO JUDGE BERNADETTE BEFORE READING HER CLEAR, COMPREHENSIVE, AND COMPELLING DESCRIPTION
''of the experience of NO SELF.''

(In my upcoming posts, I'll try to share a few key chapters, but as I mentioned, life is keeping me pretty busy right now, so please bear with me!)

👋

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Sep 1, 2005

Karen Sanchez19 said:Man, why did redrider63 make us wait under the spray of Niagara Falls? By the time he finally showed up, we were practically covered in pigeon droppings from waiting so long!

🙂

He was 50 minutes late.😉 🙂 🙂

Basically, if you're meeting up with Karen Sanchez19, you should probably tell her you want to meet 50 minutes before you actually intend to show up.

JUST DON'T LET HER KNOW THAT'S THE PLAN. 🙂

(Otherwise, she’d probably end up being 100 minutes late herself. 🙂 )

***
It reminds me of when a struggling amateur golfer once asked me:

"How can I actually improve my game?"

-hiddenpuma75: "Listen, stop trying to play the shots you *think* are good. Instead, try playing the ones you think are weak—they'll likely turn out to be much better moves than what you originally intended." 😁

I gave him some pretty wise advice there. 🙂

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Sep 1, 2005

Karen Sanchez19 said:What kind of "self" are we even talking about here?..

If you’re referring to the true Self—the ATMAN (the Absolute, God)—then there isn't much to lose. What exactly do you have in mind??

The issue is that the spiritual community is plagued by total terminological confusion.

And honestly, hardly anyone—whether they are seasoned DUHOVNJAKs, newcomers, or even established masters—bothers to study Kabbalah. It is essentially the mathematics of spirituality, providing a precise place for everything under the heavens within a perfect hieroglyph known as the Tree of Life.

It’s a clever idea, but frankly, half of it is wrong and a bit crude, if I may say so.

The Tree of Life, through its ten emanations, serves as a blueprint of the universe as designed by the Architect—showing how it is, how it is perceived, and how things ought to be viewed correctly.

Think of the Tree of Life as a "cabinet" with ten shelves; you can place every single thing, concept, or idea onto a specific shelf, ensuring you don't confuse anyone else.

It’s quite beautiful and useful, but it has one tiny catch.

Mathematics is the final veil standing before the image of Truth.🙂

Accordingly, Kabbalah and its glyph, the Tree of Life, represent the ultimate veil preceding the image of spiritual truth (because, just as math governs the physical world, Kabbalah governs the spiritual realm).

The problem is that Kabbalah is just as rigorous as mathematics; it requires a lifetime of dedicated study.
But why spend years studying Kabbalah when you can become a Reiki master in two or three years, perform a few tricks, and charge people hundreds or even thousands of dollars for various "initiations"?

***
Still, it’s a good question to ask: what actually constitutes the "self"?

Our friend Bernadette Roberts worked hard to answer this in her third book, *What Is Self*, spanning 216 pages of serious inquiry without any chat rooms or emojis.🙂

Everyone seems to think they know exactly what is meant when they say "I," "Self," "Ego," "Consciousness," "Enlightenment," or "God"—and then they claim victory and move on to prosperity...

When in reality, they don't know at all!!

So, Bernadette diligently demonstrates

what the "self" truly is

by examining various spiritual traditions, such as

Hinduism,
Jungian psychology,
Buddhism,

her own experiences,

and more.

For instance, she begins her discussion with a vital premise:

"Because the terms 'self' and 'consciousness' express THE SAME EXPERIENCES (as noted by hiddenpuma75),

and since nothing can be said of one that cannot be said of the other, we use these terms interchangeably and affirm that the true nature of self IS consciousness."

(This reminds me that I was actually the one who started this thread

asking how you all would translate the distinction between CONSCIOUSNESS and AWARENESS into American English,

since they aren't quite the same thing in the teachings of Nisargadatta, yet we seem stuck with just one word to cover it all.)

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Sep 1, 2005

Quote:

Karen Sanchez19 says to redrider63:

Who actually thinks redrider63 said that? I mean, seriously... :''
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even though Buddha took that extra step beyond the Hindu realization of ATMAN, you simply can't make that leap unless you've first realized ATMAN yourself. It’s just how things work—to experience the loss of self, there has to be a "self" there to begin with.

'So, Karen Sanchez19 is asking redrider63 because they thought the following was actually a quote from them:

What kind of nonsense is this now...

If you’re focusing on the true Self—on ATMAN, the Absolute, or God—then really, what is there to lose? What exactly do you mean by that?

Who on earth is out there deciding what counts as trash and what doesn't?

I honestly can't quite wrap my head around what Auntie is getting at.😕

Karen Sanchez19, I honestly don't know what I did to offend you, but man, you really went for the jugular!

Honestly, you’re the only person here who actually manages to get under my skin.
Neither Klimakosov, nor Master Lame, nor John, nor anyone else—not even those die-hard IL fans who always seem to be getting a laugh out of me—can actually pull it off.

What exactly is the secret behind this magical influence you have over my soul? 😈

Maybe it’s just because you’re my favorite person here—you really are our little mascot! 🙂

***
Just a heads-up for Karen Sanchez19—you know, the one who manages to show up 45 minutes late to every single meeting while simultaneously losing her phone so nobody can actually reach her. 😠

Just so everyone else is in the loop.

The top Quote that Karen Sanchez19 keeps citing—which she’s convinced was actually written by reddrider63—is quite something.
It’s definitely not redrider63's keyboard that did this.

So, hiddenpuma7 is actually quoting Bernadette Roberts from her work—specifically that deep dive into "what is self." It’s pretty fascinating stuff when you really sit with it.

It’s all laid out beautifully in those introductory posts by hiddenpuma75—provided, of course, that you actually know how to read. It’s much easier to just speculate about the absolute than it is to actually sit down and look at what’s written on the page.

***
And you, redrider63, might want to be a little more careful with how you quote things... you're starting to leave people feeling a bit confused.

It feels like you often find yourself just quoting things rather than actually offering your own take on them.
It’s exactly like that—that’s how you were acting in that thread I started, the one about where the individual ends and everything else begins.

He went and quoted my entire post, but did it in such a way that he just lifted the whole thing word-for-word—without even giving me credit or putting his own name on it! He basically just slapped his own handle at the bottom and called it his own.

Look, I know you weren't trying to rip anyone off.
🙄

Maybe you were just looking for a way to recreate that feeling you enjoyed so much.

Or maybe you were planning on saying something else and just lost your train of thought?

Or, if anyone actually knows what you meant by that... please, do tell! 🙂

But that’s just not how you handle things. You end up leaving people completely in the dark, creating this unnecessary confusion for folks who don't even realize what's actually going on.

**
Please, let’s learn how to properly use the quote function. When you reply, take a moment to actually comment on what you’re quoting—tell us why you’re bringing it up or clarify exactly who you are addressing. Let's try to keep our threads organized and, more importantly, let's maintain some decorum. Be polite and stay classy.

What exactly is the deal with the daycare lady?
If anyone’s struggling with how to use the quote function, don't sweat it—just reach out to our wonderful moderator, Auntie Blaise, and she'll get you sorted. 🙂

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Aug 31, 2005

ambereagle642 says:''

------------

I’d like to add a little more to this somewhat skewed perspective regarding our one and only, truly incomparable placidharbor7. In my view, he just can't seem to break free from—or rather, confront—that fourth or fifth stubborn Zen-Bull that keeps holding him back. It’s not even us doing it; the Bull is simply hovering there, refusing to let him find his footing or move an inch forward. He needs to look those fierce eyes straight in the face and finally "conquer" them if he ever hopes to make any real progress.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
placidharbor7 says: There is no DEVOTION without "recognizing" the Self, nor can it exist without "realizing" ONENESS.
And let me tell you, brothers and sisters, that is a crucial MOMENT.
It is that healing FLASH OF RECOGNITION regarding everything and anything, which must first be acknowledged within your own being before you can truly grasp and practice TRUE DEVOTION. Not that pitiful, forced version practiced by our sister Bernadette. That meager, traditional Christian kind.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you had actually read her book instead of just cherry-picking snippets out of context like this, you’d realize she is saying the exact same thing.

The label 'Christian mystic' seems to be your sticking point—it's such a possessive attribute for you to fixate on. If you could get past that, maybe you might actually find something worth praising in her words!

🙄 😁

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Aug 31, 2005

ambereagle642 said:You're absolutely right, John! I couldn't agree more. 😁

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Aug 31, 2005

"Quote:"

Master John said:BERNADETTE ROBERTS - A Believer in the Emptiness of the Mind
_________________________________

Mrs. Roberts is such a devoted, steadfast believer. I honestly think her true mission in this blessed life is to keep people like our old school mentor, Master Klimakos, firmly anchored within the bounds of Christian doctrine. She’ll hold onto those traditional teachings with everything she's got—staying consistent and unyielding—until that good man finally loses his grip on reality and goes completely mad.

It’s hard to ignore the fallout from Mr. Roberts' intense little skirmish. You can see the effects on that Master quite clearly—it's almost a bit tragic, isn't it? But really, why even try to hide it?
It seems to me that some of you are being far too hard on the virtuous Lady, treating her with a level of scrutiny she certainly hasn't earned—and honestly, I think you're being just as unfair to our enlightened Master Parsifal. Perhaps a few others in this group are guilty of the same thing, too.

That’s exactly why we should take a moment to dive into the wonderful, endless chatter of this lovely lady—it's a necessary distraction from the rigid, stuffy traditions of those heavy-handed institutional schools of enlightenment.
Roberts.

Let's be honest, Mrs. Roberts doesn't exactly start "rambling" right out of the gate—she lays it all out right there in the introduction.
Well, as the painter Tintoretto used to say, "The further you step, the deeper the sea becomes." I think that applies perfectly here. We have to face the fact that our sovereign little observer is going to start struggling somewhere around the 25-cubit mark from the surface.

Since Master Parsifal didn't immediately lose his cool after those harsh remarks—and since Master Klimakos is being even more aggressive about it—why don't we all just join forces and take down one more of those Christian golden hens? I suppose calling it a "golden calf" would be too cliché, so let's stick with the hen.
_______________________ 👋

Mrs. Roberts says, among other things:

Consciousness acts as both a veil that conceals the abyss and a bridge that spans it. Once we’ve finally made it to the other side, naturally, the bridge becomes obsolete. That’s why I don't think it matters if we begin this long trek carrying our little kits of holy cards, ringing gongs and bells, clutching sacred texts, or leaning heavily on intense religious fervor. It all serves its purpose for a time, even if it isn't the destination itself.

So, all you really have to do is just "kickstart" your spiritual journey.
Flirting—whatever the method. It honestly doesn't matter if you’re using your own specialized toolkit to get by, whether that involves things like tarot cards, meditation bells, heavy religious texts, or just leaning into peace and spiritual vibes. Hehe.

"All that 'spiritual' maneuvering, along with all the stumbling and foolishness inherent in this whole wandering endeavor, is completely acceptable," our clever little workshop specialist points out.

So, my dear Masters, Mistresses, and everyone else following along—before you dive into your diligent little notes, please make sure to notice one thing: Mrs. Roberts doesn't mention that legitimate "option" anywhere or in any way. She completely ignores the actual substance in favor of just rambling about "spirituality."
So, what she’s really saying is that she holds her silly, nonsensical little antics in the highest regard—treating them as if they're somehow beyond reproach or high quality. As if that’s the only way she can function, haha.

It also signals her complete lack of awareness regarding the personal and global "consequences" stemming from this practice she favors so much.
It’s honestly a bit exhausting to deal with how much of "humanity" seems to obsess over the supposed "necessity" and "meaning" behind chasing every single spiritual rabbit hole out there. It feels like people are constantly scrambling toward some new enlightened goal, whereas our author clearly reached a much more grounded, greener stage of understanding long ago—simply by having the wisdom to know when to step back and let things be, rather than forcing her way into places she didn't need to go.

Everything we go through should ultimately serve the purpose of growth and deep transformation. It’s all about that final, total surrender—letting go of the rigid images we hold of ourselves and the narrow concepts we cling to, until we arrive at a life defined by selfless giving. Once you reach that point where there is truly nothing left to surrender and nothing left to offer, you finally reach the end of the path. That is when consciousness itself ends, along with our small, personal ideas of what God might be. Honestly, once you catch even a single glimpse of the true Godhead, you wouldn't ever want a version of God back.

"Surrender"—though some might say that's a bit of an overstatement—is what this spirited Christian woman is preaching to us. According to her, it’s the absolute baseline, the non-negotiable prerequisite if you want to actually pull off her recommended version of the Christian way of life.

Just some random thoughts, dear Lady Roberts.

Playing out this whole "surrender" routine gesture by gesture—especially before you’re actually ready—is nothing more than an exercise in coddling your own ego. It’s just a way to stroke that very "self" we're talking about; the same one that clings so desperately to all those mental images and concepts of yours. Heh.
That whole idea of "devotion" driven by logic and willpower? Honestly, it’s about as useful as shoving a hot chili pepper up a donkey's backside just to get it to sit still.

To all my dear Masters, Mistresses, aspiring practitioners, and students of this incredible school: please make sure to add this one crucial point to your diligent notes. True devotion isn't just a feeling you chase—it is entirely possible and achievable, but it can only be born from genuine realization. We are talking about that profound moment of insight. It is only after reaching that ultimate understanding that true devotion becomes real.
That’s exactly how Master John used to teach us back in the day.

Do you really disagree with what I just said in my last insight? Honestly, we’re just holding ourselves back—it’s hard to even lie to ourselves when we're being this stubborn.

True devotion is impossible without first recognizing that we are all kin, and it remains out of reach until we truly grasp the fundamental Unity of all things.
And that right there is a significant trend, brothers and sisters.
It’s that healing flash of recognition—that sudden clarity regarding everything and anything—that has to be firmly established within your very being first. Only then can you truly grasp and live out True Superiority. I'm certainly not talking about that meager, forced version our Sister Bernadette tries to push. That pathetic Christian take just doesn't cut it.

Stephan: In what ways does the journey toward the Experience of no self within the Christian contemplative tradition diverge from the paths outlined in Hindu and Buddhist teachings?

Bernadette Roberts: I honestly feel like the window might have closed on me truly grasping how other faiths interpret this specific passage. Because if you aren't prepared to surrender your entire existence—your very consciousness—to a personal God whom you love and trust, then what exactly is the point of the surrender?

Has our dear Lady Roberts ever even heard of the "Iron Gauntlet Challenge"? Honestly, we’ve been gliding through her shallow little ramblings at our local community college like a hot knife through butter—and it hasn't even been a full year. Who exactly does she think we are?

Unless you’ve truly surrendered every single ounce of your being—unless you have completely "poured out" your entire consciousness... well, hehe.

To whom or for whom?
Who is actually the one doing the paying? Or rather, who is footing the bill?
For what purpose?
Why?
How exactly?
How long is too long?
Is it a daybreak, or just another long night?
But just how much are we talking about here?
Is anyone actually measuring this fairly?
.........................................

Mrs. Roberts is going to be owing you all answers to your questions for a long, long time.
I can't help but chuckle at how wildly optimistic Master John is being—assuming he’ll actually grasp the essence of what you're even asking him in the first place! Hehe.

Why even bother with the act of surrendering? People often get hung up on the idea that losing the ego or dissolving the self is the whole point. But honestly, that's just a side effect of the process. Losing yourself isn't the actual objective or the ultimate destination—it’s just something that happens along the way.

It’s really just the same old story, isn't it? A classic case of "same old, same old."
Mrs. Choking Christian—who’s basically acting like some sort of rogue disciple of Master Klimakos—is completely flipping everything we know about the "Spiritual Path and Life" on its head. Honestly, watching her try to reinterpret those core experiences is like watching someone stumble through a bar at closing time.

Oh, the tragedy of it all! Honestly, I can't say I’m surprised that Master Klimakos is dealing with this kind of supernatural spiritual constipation. It’s like one of those old sayings—just hang in there, buddy, you're still breathing!

Maybe this aligns with the perspective found in Mahayana Buddhism as well. In that tradition, the ultimate mission is to liberate every living being from their suffering, viewing the dissolution of the ego—the experience of no self—as a vital stepping stone toward achieving that much larger, more compassionate purpose.

Since when did Mahayana Buddhism suddenly decide it needed a specific, set-in-stone goal? Seriously, my goodness, people! It feels like we're just making up rules now.
It feels like we’re all standing here trying to puff out our chests and act like tough guys—pardon me, I suppose we're all supposed to be masculine "Masters" here, right? I guess that's just what happens when we all have that noble, lofty spiritual "goal" staring us right in the face.

The goal and true spirituality are like two old friends hanging out together—they go hand in hand with everything from the devil’s tridents to the scent of liturgical incense. It’s what defines a real lady and a true gentleman.
How can we even let someone like Christian—our very own Iron Lady—be such an embarrassment? It’s honestly pathetic to listen to her blathering on about some supposed "higher purpose." And don't even get me started on how she weaponizes all that bitter, nasty rhetoric from this world just to make her point.

No matter how you look at it, there’s barely any distance between having a "goal" and finding true MEANING. It's such a razor-thin margin that any overeager missionary can easily slip through the cracks.

This perspective aligns perfectly with the Christian longing to ensure that every soul finds salvation. From where I stand, if you don't have a personal God to lean on, a Buddhist essentially needs a much more robust, unshakable faith in the "unconditioned and unbegotten." It’s a different kind of strength compared to what’s required of a Christian contemplative, who views their spiritual journey as a direct act of God—something being done *to* them, rather than anything they are accomplishing through their own effort.

Master John really needs to take a breather tonight from all these high-minded theories people are throwing around. It’s getting a bit much. And honestly, it isn't just about what was said here—Master John was also spinning quite a tale earlier regarding our dear Sister Bernadette, who has always been such an inspiration to Master Klimakos.

The snow is truly a miracle of our Christian faith, yet Master John stands all alone and quite vulnerable.
So, I am asking all of you to step up and help us protect Master Klimakos from this stagnation and paralysis. Let’s get him back on his feet. Thank God he hasn't been struck by AIDS yet, though given how this medical service operates, it could have easily happened.

The lovely Lady Roberts—in case you weren't aware—is also so sweetly identified by her Christian name, haha. She is the sole sweetness in the heart of this mute cyclone and the source of all this endless bickering.

Dear honored guests and listeners, Master John realizes that those twenty-five laps around the bags might already be far beyond your reach. No matter. Just take Master John at his word.

The Master has seen the enlightened Lady Roberts struggle and writhe many times, and she wasn't even halfway there. What would Tintoretto say about that? He’d probably just make a quick sketch of the lady. "A Lady in Agony," perhaps is what the painter would call it.

She struggles and writhes, Bernadette, and she blames him so piercingly that Master John’s very manhood stood erect at the mention of those eras:

"Klimakoseeeeeeee, Klimakoseeeeee! Spaaaaasiiiiii meeeeeee, spaaaaaaasiiiiii meeeeee."🙂 🙄 😎

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Aug 31, 2005

Glowing reviews and firsthand accounts from readers regarding the book EXPERIENCE of no SELF

Born in 1931, she occasionally hosts spiritual retreats

A COMPREHENSIVE INTERVIEW WITH BERNADETTE ROBERTS provides the best insight for Master John into just how much weight this former nun actually carries

Mother of four experiences the same enlightenment as Buddha in Spirituality · Aug 31, 2005

hiddenpuma75 said:There have been plenty of moments in my life that left an impression on me—some were profound, others were just okay—but...

Regarding "spirituality"—whatever that might actually mean—it’s really got me thinking.

Regarding that "goose grab" (as John puts it).

Three authors and their wisdom.

Once upon a time...

Vesna Krmpotić shares her moving testimony: A Mountain Above the Clouds.

And then he goes, "He stopped me."

Nisargadatta Maharaj (Life and Words)—honestly, I’m at a loss for which to value more.

***
Then there’s Bernadette Roberts—a mother of four and a former nun—who provides this incredibly clear, sincere, and deeply convincing account. She goes into exhaustive detail, laying out exactly what happens when a person finally lets go of that "last thing" they cling to: that ultimate sense of certainty, the stubborn belief that there is a solid "yes" or an objective reality to hold onto. 😲

The sensation of "I AM."

Actually, Experience of no self was her very first book.

The mere fact that she didn't want it, didn't seek it out, and didn't even know it was coming—yet it happened to her anyway—is honestly pretty staggering.

***
Master John...

I took note of that question you posted regarding her.

I'll get those four or five key pages translated for you and everyone else.

Unfortunately, I've got some pretty heavy lifting to do over the next four or five days. My schedule is looking a bit packed with more pressing matters, but I’m really hoping to get back to this very soon.
Please, feel free to give me a nudge if you really want me to dive back in. I have to admit, though—paraphrasing someone else's words isn't exactly my favorite way to spend my time!
So, if you're looking for more, just say the word! Otherwise, I might just "accidentally" forget that there’s still more work left to be done on the translation. 😁 )

***
Now, if I were to take a quick, surface-level look at this and try to translate it—just to see what might actually be worth our time—what do you think would be the most important takeaway?

For me, my wife, and even the wise ones among us, there is something incredibly striking and deeply symbolic about how two seemingly distinct systems of ancient wisdom converge. It’s truly fascinating to see how Chinese I Ching and the Kabbalistic Tree of Life align so perfectly, despite the fact that these two traditions have no idea the other even exists.

The sheer symmetry and consistency we see here serve as a powerful testament to the truth behind both systems. 😉

It’s actually quite similar to what happens when a Christian manages to grasp and truly realize the very things Buddha taught—even if they never stepped foot in a temple or spent a single second studying Buddhism.
This event is truly massive—it’s a game-changer for Buddhism, Christianity, and honestly, anyone out there searching for the truth.

So, it’s actually happening. It's finally becoming a reality. ANNATE In the Christian tradition, there is one particular element that I hold quite dear. To me, it feels like that vital lifeline—the one thing that might actually prevent the greatest spiritual tragedy on Earth by helping Christianity find its way back to itself and undergo a true revitalization.

***

I’m going to translate that specific part where she describes her total confusion—that feeling of being completely blindsided because traditional Christianity doesn't teach about this kind of experience. It fails to prepare both the laity and the clergy for "THAT."

It really struck me how much she knew nothing about Buddhism or even the teachings of Buddha—which made it all the more fascinating when she "stumbled" upon his concepts regarding the "skandhas."

I’m also leaning toward that idea of Anatta—the concept of no self.

She finally realized that she was going through the exact same thing—the same cycle that hits him, just as much as it hits her. 😲

I was just sitting here reading through that chapter a few hours ago, and I wanted to share a few snippets of her words. I've put together my own translation of them for you all.

These are some excerpts from her third book—so, what exactly is the "self"?

str 114
My own journey toward discovering Buddha wasn't some sudden, lightning-bolt moment of clarity. It was more of a slow burn—a gradual realization that the noise of everyday life was drowning out something much deeper. For a long time, I was just running on autopilot, trying to find stability in all the wrong places. It started with a quiet curiosity, almost by accident. I began looking for ways to make sense of the chaos, searching for a way to find some inner stillness amidst the constant hustle of American life. What I eventually stumbled upon wasn't just a philosophy; it was a completely different way of perceiving reality itself. The more I delved into these teachings, the more I realized how much of my "self" was actually just a collection of habits, reactions, and social conditioning. Learning about the Experience of no self was particularly challenging—and honestly, a little humbling. It’s one thing to read about it in a book, but it's quite another to sit there and realize that the "me" I've been protecting so fiercely might not be as solid as I thought. It hasn't been an easy path, and I certainly haven't mastered anything yet. There are plenty of days where I fall right back into old patterns. But even in those moments, there's a newfound sense of grace. This discovery hasn't changed my external world, but it has fundamentally shifted how I inhabit it. It’s less about finding answers and more about learning how to sit comfortably with the questions.

''.....

Whoever first came up with this teaching about the five Skandhas clearly had firsthand experience with that permanent sense of losing them altogether.

...
Whatever happens, I feel like I finally stumbled upon exactly what I was looking for. I came across Buddha’s teachings regarding the Five Skandhas and his comparison of losing the sense of self to the collapse of a house's ridgepole. Honestly, it felt like everything clicked—it provided every single piece of insight I needed to understand Buddhism.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind: Buddhism holds a profound, far-reaching, and incredibly heavy truth.

In my view, that stands as Buddhism's most significant contribution to humanity.

I don't think we truly grasp just how monumental, massive, and profound this truth really is..
It’s easy to take certain things for granted, failing to realize just how difficult they actually are to attain..

Countless books have been written about the self and consciousness, yet none of those authors truly understood or lived what it actually entails....

...

When Buddha proclaimed that there is no eternal self (soul), he was speaking after having experienced enlightenment—that is, after the moment when the ATMAN (the self) fell away.
Therefore, it is a mistake to believe that the self doesn't exist at all;
The concept of "non-self" or "no-atman" makes no sense if it doesn't negate an experience that actually exists.
So, even though Buddha went one step further than the Hindu realization of ATMAN, nobody can take that leap without first realizing the ATMAN. To experience the loss of the self, it has to exist first. That's just how the universe works..
Since the Atman eventually falls away, it clearly isn't the Absolute or Brahman.
What we perceive as our "self" is undoubtedly the illusion we discussed earlier—an illusion that *is* the self.
However, using the term "illusion" doesn't mean the self is a lie; it simply means it is a relative truth rather than an absolute one..

....

Consciousness isn't the medium through which we perceive the self; consciousness can only perceive what it is NOT..