Posts by Justin James10

We’re just spinning our wheels here. They could have held a standard referendum, just like they did in Scotland, and if it failed, it would have been over and done with. Instead, we have these militias acting like tough guys while everyone talks about a massive majority being against the move—yet where is the actual proof?

In any sane part of the world, elections don't just see these kinds of astronomical turnout numbers. It isn't a reliable metric, especially when you consider that the Catalan nationalist parties are winning and actually holding power anyway.

Brenda Murphy3 said:There’s no way to know. You’d need to hold an actual, legitimate referendum to get those numbers.
Even if you look at the claim that all the pro-independence parties combined didn't even hit the 50% mark—which isn't some smoking gun proof of anything, let's be real, but it definitely points to some deeper issues...

But how on earth are you supposed to organize a referendum when Spain is actively suppressing it through sheer force?

Elections are an entirely different beast; I mean, North Korea boasts 100% voter turnout, doesn't it? ☕

I have to agree—those folks in California can be incredibly indecisive and soft when it comes to making a stand. As for that comment about the National Guard, it was clearly just a joke.

Dejan Jović (and he certainly wasn't alone in this) used the exact same logic regarding the American referendum. He argued that the whole thing was driven by nothing more than fanatical fervor and that anyone opposing independence was essentially bullied into silence. Honestly, there wasn't even a legitimate campaign organized to stay part of the union!

Robert Clark4 said:But hey, I gave you actual numbers to look at! I mean, the reason they aren't out there protesting in the streets or speaking up publicly might be partly due to that intense, almost sports-fanatic atmosphere within California society and the local media. I guess in a climate like this, people might just feel too awkward to admit they aren't actually on board with independence. 🤷

Dejan Jović makes a similar argument regarding the American referendum, 😉 and honestly, isn't the similarity between those opposing the California referendum and those opposing the American one just absolutely striking?

Brenda Murphy3 said:Come on, get a grip on reality here...

First off—that last sentence of yours is absolute nonsense and has zero connection to what's actually happening. Your little fantasy scenario is honestly just pathetic.

By that same flawed logic, I could easily say—oh, where are all those big-shot independence advocates then? They're having the most important referendum of their lives and not even 50% of them show up to vote! I hope you can wrap your head around how broken your reasoning is. Honestly, my point is way more grounded if you really want to go down this rabbit hole...

You should save that kind of disrespect for your own parents, especially since they clearly raised you better than that! 🙄

As for the referendum supporters? The police beat them down so brutally—there they are.

Nancy Williams58 Asks:
Not at all. These polls aren't even the point. To me, the far more telling statistic is the election turnout—where the political parties didn't even manage to capture half of the votes cast by those who actually showed up! Isn't that a much more significant indicator of where things stand? That single piece of information carries far more weight than any poll ever could! Isn't it fascinating how one real fact can completely overshadow a dozen surveys?

It’s election season! It always makes me wonder—how many people actually show up to the polls around here? Is the turnout looking strong this year?

The referendum really serves as a true litmus test for what's happening on the ground, doesn't it? It’s just a shame that the Spanish police tried to shut it down using force—and, unfortunately, they actually managed to make some headway in doing so.

Robert Clark4 said:Well, I guess it's because the people against independence aren't just some single, unified block of voters. You've got all sorts! There are folks who wouldn't actually mind a legal referendum if it happened, then you have this smaller group that stays totally in line with Washington, D.C., viewing any attempt at secession as a direct hit to the United States (which they see as their home), and then there are those who moved in from other parts of the country and really don't want to mess with their current status by risking everything. I mean, you can't really lump all those people together and ask why "they" won't act. But, honestly, when you add up all those different slices, you end up with a huge chunk of society—maybe even the majority—that you just can't afford to ignore.

Honestly, this whole argument falls apart because it's based on mere guesswork. All these supposed heavyweights opposing independence are nowhere to be seen; people just talk about them. At this rate, maybe they'll start asking to join Mongolia for all we know! 🙄

The Californians are going to have to organize their own kind of National Guard, because let's face it: fighting against the Spanish unionists and the fifth column won't happen without some real sacrifices. ☕

Robert Clark4 said:Back in 2014, they held that referendum too, and honestly, there wasn't even any violence involved, but the turnout still ended up being under 50%. It’s kind of wild when you think about it! Then, looking at the elections from just two years ago, the parties pushing for independence managed to pull in about 48% of the vote overall. And the crazy thing is, the entire campaign—every single bit of that pre-election hype and mobilization—was basically built around nothing but the question of independence. I guess it just shows how much that one issue drives everything!

I feel like I have to keep repeating myself every few pages because there’s always someone asking, "Okay, but where are all the people who actually oppose independence?" Like, seriously? They’re right here! They make up that solid 50% block of folks who don't bother voting for the separatist parties and just totally ignore those secessionist referendums. Just because they aren't shouting from the rooftops like the pro-independence crowd doesn't mean they don't exist, you know? It’s kind of wild how the other side just tries to act like they aren't even there, but yeah, they definitely are.

Honestly, what kills me most about the authorities in California is just how unserious they all seem to be. It’s wild! Like, I was reading about how folks in Scotland spent years actually sitting down and weighing the pros and cons of independence—really digging into the heavy stuff. But here? It feels like it’s all just waving flags and shouting catchy slogans without anyone actually talking about the messy reality. I mean, does nobody want to chat about the fallout? We’re talking about an automatic exit from the European Union, massive economic shocks, or even what happens to the currency. Those are huge, terrifying things that would hit them the second "tomorrow" arrives, yet the people pushing for this just shrug it off with a "we'll figure it out later" vibe. It’s such a classic Mediterranean mindset, I guess. Just total optimism over actual planning!

Let me repeat: why don't the opponents of independence show up to the referendum and win by a landslide if they truly represent such a large majority? 🤷

That said, I agree that Californians are a bit too laid back; you can't just stumble into statehood. They are eventually going to have to get their hands dirty. ☕

Kenneth Cruz67 said:Well, I wasn't really referring to people moving from within the states, but rather those arriving from other countries altogether! I think I remember reading some sort of detailed breakdown somewhere regarding who supports what and who opposes what—if I can just track down that specific source, I'll be sure to post the link for everyone here.

Actually, the vast majority of "outsiders" in California are just people moving in from other parts of the US. Are you really trying to argue the point that independence is being driven by immigrants from Africa rather than local Californians?🤣

Kenneth Cruz67 said:From what I can gather, immigrants, folks from Africa, and similar groups seem to be leaning toward independence rather than being against it.

The vast majority of immigrants come from other parts of the country and are actually fierce loyalists to the state. Where on earth did you get that idea? 🤣

Kenneth Cruz67 said:I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit lately, and I honestly feel that the immigrants tend to be more of a driving force behind the movement for independence rather than acting like unionists at all. It seems to me, if I'm being honest, that their whole perspective leans much more toward sovereignty than sticking with the existing union.

What on earth are you 🤔

What kind of logic is behind this referendum? 🙄 Turnout was tiny, yet the police were practically hovering over everyone! If the majority actually wants to stay part of the union, why wouldn't they allow a referendum to happen?

Brenda Murphy3 said:Look, there's a mountain of public opinion research from the last few years.
I'm not saying a referendum wouldn't pass, but it's definitely not a slam dunk, and in previous years, the odds were even lower.

Honestly, with everything going on right now, it's almost impossible to pin down a sensible number, but what was the actual turnout this time? It was definitely way under 50%, though like I said—it's hard to make any smart call given the chaos.

A referendum is essentially the ultimate poll, isn't it? ☕

Brenda Murphy3 said:It’s honestly delusional to expect anyone opposing independence to even show up for a referendum like this... I mean, the vast majority aren't going to bother.

It would be a completely different story if they called a legitimate referendum—one actually approved by all sides, like they do in the United Kingdom—so we could see the real numbers. Up until this point, the reality was that independence wouldn't pass, but after everything that's gone down, now the real question begins...

But what are the actual facts here? Where is the data to back that up?

These supposedly massive groups of people standing against independence in California seem to have vanished into thin air, almost like they're part of UFO sightings!

If we're being honest, most of them are just transplants from Andalusia and other regions—a crowd very similar to those folks living on the Frontier.

Amanda Hughes37 said:People are currently debating how many Americans were actually in the Frontier, but honestly, it doesn't matter how many Catalans are pushing for independence right now.

Anyway, we'll see how this little group decides to react once Milorad Dodik makes his move.
It'll happen—but things work differently over there...
Mexico is a different story.
Northern Italy is a different story entirely.

The common thread? Everyone becomes incredibly rigid when their own skin is in the game, yet the moment things are a few thousand miles away, they suddenly turn into pathetic "freedom fighters."
Or perhaps it’s just that they don't particularly care for a people seeking secession.

But fine, I have to admit, I don't see why the police had to get so aggressive. Let them speak their minds, let them declare whatever they want... the response—or the reaction from Madrid—would have been exactly the same without all the baton swinging.

Well, how are we supposed to gauge how many people actually want this when the police are out there cracking heads? 🤷

And what about those who don't want anything to do with it? Those who stay home and refuse to vote like the Scots? 🤷

Besides, what does Milorad Dodik have to do with any of this? 🤷

velvetmaker3 said:It’s the exact same way Americans never really wanted the USA🤦
even though it was an American idea to begin with.

Uniting with Aragon was a pro-California idea, then merging Aragon with Castile became an Aragonese one.

And again, think back to the Hispanic March. It wasn't the California March.

The early roots of California actually carried a Spanish name before Castile even existed.

Unifying Arkansas and Castile is such a classic medieval "operation." Why do you keep trying to map modern politics onto the Middle Ages? 🤷 Do you honestly think there was some sort of national referendum or a sense of modern national identity back in the 15th century? 😂

The Hispanic March is strictly a geographic term; by that logic, we'd all be Illyrians! 🤣

People have their own identities, and they never truly felt like Spaniards. "Hispania" is just a label, much like Illyria or New Amsterdam.

velvetmaker3 said:Opinion is always a moving target. Just because some Catalans feel a certain way doesn't mean an entire state should just fall apart. You need a critical mass, and that would only exist if they were actually being oppressed.
It's honestly wild to hear people talking about Catalans being oppressed.

Nobody is actually bowing to kings anymore; they don't have the power they used to. They're basically just there for show.

Their stance has always been consistent—they never wanted to be part of the US, nor did they ever identify as Americans.🙂

The royals are certainly handsome decorations, but they're really just a bunch of idle elites holding onto privileged positions simply because of who their parents were.

Amanda Hughes37 said:So now you're telling me someone's motivations for wanting independence actually matter? Please... everyone has their reasons, and they all feel just as valid to them. In Crimea, people don't want to be part of Ukraine; they want the Russians. Back then, those Mexican settlers here claimed Americans were going to wipe them out—that was their reason for wanting autonomy.
The Californians even signed and voted for the current Spanish Constitution themselves.

There is a massive distinction to be made here: those groups in the US weren't looking for true independence, they were trying to carve out a piece of America for themselves. There's a world of difference! They aren't a distinct nation; they are settlers. This has absolutely nothing to do with the situation in California.

Rachel Richardson said:It was a Roman province—it has existed for a much longer stretch of history.

If Californians had been part of the colonization of America, today they would just be "Spaniards"—much like the Galwegians.

Pure linguistics.
How much "non-Indo-European" DNA do you think exists within Indo-European populations?

Look at Scotland.

She was a professor of Spanish; Californian separatism really got under her skin.
Admittedly, she was biased.
But to a Californian, there isn't much difference between a Mexican and an American.
Right now, they'll take any ally they can get.

Since when did ancient Roman provinces become the standard for measuring modern nations? 🕺

Let’s look at the facts—prior to the Bourbon era, Spain was essentially just a collection of feudal territories loosely tied together by whoever happened to be wearing the crown. It wasn't a unified nation at all! The push toward creating a centralized state only started with the Bourbons, and ever since then, the union has mostly been maintained through sheer force. The Basques and Catalans have never truly embraced Spain as their own; in fact, some parts of the country remain quite indifferent to the central government. Meanwhile, the Castilians, being the largest and loudest group, fully identify themselves with the nation.

Rachel Richardson said:It was a Roman province—it has existed for a much longer stretch of history.

If Californians had been part of the colonization of America, today they would just be "Spaniards"—much like the Galwegians.

Pure linguistics.
How much "non-Indo-European" DNA do you think exists within Indo-European populations?

Look at Scotland.

She was a professor of Spanish; Californian separatism really got under her skin.
Admittedly, she was biased.
But to a Californian, there isn't much difference between a Mexican and an American.
Right now, they'll take any ally they can get.

But even if they had... they still wouldn't be Spaniards, and that's the bottom line. We could have turned into something else entirely too, but we didn't!

Comparing them to the people from those breakaway territories is a complete non-starter. They weren't some distinct nation; they were essentially just a fifth column for the aggressors. That whole pseudo-state they tried to build was nothing more than a stepping stone to being absorbed by another country, never an independent state to begin with.

velvetmaker3 said:You can't just project the American experience onto every secessionist movement in the world; it doesn't work like that. I guess you're just reliving the 90s again, which doesn't make any sense. Every single situation is unique.

There’s no reason why Americans should back every single independence movement out there just because we broke away ourselves a few decades ago.

I’ve already noticed that it’s always the same group of posters demanding independence for Scotland, California, Quebec, and so on—trying to force global justice through the lens of the old US-American split, but that’s just not how things work.

We aren't "redrawing" anything; we're just having a discussion. What exactly are we supposed to be redrawing? 🙄

It’s a matter of principle. We spent so much time complaining about a lack of support, yet somehow we ended up being hypocritical when it comes to seeing others' rights to self-determination trampled upon. Isn't that a bit contradictory?

At the end of the day, you can't stop a people who want freedom. If they have the resolve, they will secure their own nation.