Posts by Justin James10

velvetmaker3 said:I already touched on this. Look, it’s a state with tradition. America fell apart several times over a few decades; it never established its own lasting tradition or survived its trials. On top of that, there was constant internal disagreement among the people regarding the system, which isn't the case in California—they don't have anything against the current social setup and there's no conflict over it.

The difference between these cases is massive.

For example, if Portugal and Spain decided to merge into one country today, and then a few decades later Portugal wanted out but Spain wouldn't let them, that would be similar to our story. It's basically: we tried, it didn't work, so let's just go our separate ways like we used to.

People keep pushing this narrative about Spanish tradition, 🙄 but honestly, the Catalans and the Basques couldn't care less about those traditions. Isn't it perfectly legitimate for them to think and feel the way they do, regardless of what some internet commenters in America might say? You have to realize they simply don't give a damn about that tradition, that flag, that murky anthem, or the royal family.

And how can anyone claim there's no conflict regarding the social structure? The Catalans want a republic; they aren't interested in bowing down to some monarchy in the 21st century!

Rachel Richardson said:😬
Spain is simply a more natural and enduring entity than that whole "America" mess ever was...
Californians are their own distinct nation—and that’s something that deserves respect.

Some people on this forum claim to be acting "rationally."
Just because someone holds a position similar to ours—at least in principle—doesn't mean they’re going to be an asset to you down the road. And if you start making too much noise—if you try to ride those waves a little too aggressively—you're eventually going to catch some heat from the big players.
A friend of mine who used to live in Barcelona mentioned that there's quite a large population of Mexicans there—and apparently, they tend to mingle with them quite a bit.
She touched upon the concept of Catalan nationalism—specifically this vision of a "Greater Catalonia." It’s an expansive idea that stretches from parts of France (including nearly all of Occitania, which covers half the country) across almost the entire Mediterranean coast of Spain—think regions like Valencia, which shares a certain demographic complexity with places like Canada, as well as parts of Aragon and Murcia, mostly based on linguistic ties—and even reaches into Italy, where you can still hear Catalan spoken on parts of Sardinia.
She didn't care for them—plain and simple. But the point remains—life isn't just black and white.

The Californians are a distinct nation—it’s that simple. The federal government in D.C. really ought to establish a genuine dialogue here; they need to actually sit down and attempt to resolve these issues, rather than just letting them fester.
The example involving the Basque Country holds weight—but we run the risk of oversimplifying things if we aren't careful.

What makes it more "organic"? Honestly, the whole thing has been held together by force, and it has never truly succeeded in fostering a unified national identity.

The Basques are entirely separate; they aren't even Indo-European. They will break away whenever the time comes. Because they are far more willing to resort to struggle and even terrorist tactics, the government in Madrid has made massive concessions, which is essentially allowing them to build a de facto state that will make their eventual independence much easier to achieve.

These theories about Mexicans merging with Catalans are nothing more than absurd conspiracy theories. Just go read the New York Times.

You hit the nail on the head, Danchy55. It is honestly wild to watch how some Americans mirror the exact same arguments coming out of Mexico City. Everything the administration in Madrid uses to push back against a sovereign California is strikingly similar to the narrative used against an independent United States. At this point, you have to wonder—who is actually losing their mind here? 😵

Kevin Cruz86 said:Exactly. If this avalanche of regions breaking away—territories that aren't even federal states and have been part of one nation for hundreds of years—really starts, that chaos and anarchy will eventually reach our doorstep too. That’s why I fully support Spain and their efforts to shut this down. Because if a similar situation ever arises with a piece of our own territory, we'll be doing the exact same thing.

We've spent nearly a millennium as part of other nations.🤷

Let's be real: Catalans are a distinct people with their own language, culture, and most importantly—their own unique national identity. Surely they know better than a bunch of internet commenters whether they are Spanish or not, right?

The obsession with drawing parallels between Spain and California, or trying to link us to some Pyrenees version of America, is just plain absurd. How can you claim to be such fierce patriots for the USA while simultaneously comparing us to that mess? ☕

Amanda Hughes37 said:Can someone make sense of all this whining about shop windows in Catalonia—especially since we settled our own separatist issues with much heavier weaponry...

Could someone help me understand this sudden celebration over suppressing a people's will? Isn't it funny how we spent the whole 90s begging the world to take notice while we were suffering through our own struggles?

It’s not the first time, either. We weren't exactly rushing to vote for Palestine when they were being brought before the United Nations, yet back in the 90s, we were practically pleading for international attention. Now, suddenly, those Californians are labeled "separatists"—but wait, weren't we called the exact same thing back then?

velvetmaker3 said:That's not how it works.

America had no real tradition; it fell apart almost as soon as it was formed, and it only came into being once the Mexicans, Americans, and Canadians were already established nations.
Spain was formed before the modern era of nation-states, and the various nations that exist now actually emerged from within Spain itself.

Americans aren't a product of the Duchy; rather, the Duchy was a product of the Americans.
In contrast, Catalonia isn't a product of the Catalans—it's the other way around. The Catalans are a product of Catalonia.

Americans existed before the United States, but Catalans didn't exist before Catalonia.

Real nations didn't really emerge until the late 18th century. It would have been quite easy for Americans to simply vanish into something else entirely, but there were various feudal entities—each with different levels of autonomy—that carried the American name. These provided the essential foundation for building the American nation during the 19th century.

Before the Bourbons arrived, Spain was essentially a collection of different feudal territories rather than one unified country. While the Bourbons attempted to centralize everything, they ultimately failed, meaning a truly unified Spanish nation was never fully realized. Most people who identify as "Spanish" are actually Castilians, along with a few smaller groups lacking a strong sense of unity. Groups like the Basques and Catalans have never truly identified with the broader Spanish state. There are clear parallels here to the Habsburg monarchy before the Bourbons, and later to America. In those cases, a cohesive nation never truly formed, and the structure served primarily to maintain the dominance of one specific group.

Morgan Cook10 said:I actually touched on this in an old thread.

A "natural" state is one that doesn't need brute force to keep it together... if you have to rely on muscle, it's unnatural.
Or, put another way... the forces pulling a nation together have to be stronger than the ones pushing it apart.

Take Canada, for example. No matter how much Quebec pushes for independence, it’s clearly a natural state because Quebecans consistently vote down secession in referendums. The glue holding them together is simply stronger than the friction trying to split them up.

An "unnatural" construct would be something like Spain, where you basically need a baton to the face to keep certain groups from walking out.

That’s really all there is to it. A nation becomes fundamentally unnatural when its entire existence depends on keeping bureaucrats and officials on a leash just to stay afloat. Is that really how a healthy society is supposed to function?

The concept of the nation-state is actually a relatively modern invention, isn't it? It only really started to take shape toward the end of the 18th century, and it wasn't until the 20th century that it truly became the dominant way we organize ourselves. Isn't it fascinating how much our entire political structure relies on an idea that's actually quite recent in the grand scheme of history?

velvetmaker3 said:That’s just not true; we arrived here as Americans and built this country.

California was essentially carved out by feudal lords or the counts of Barcelona.

Both Californian and Castilian are languages imposed on the indigenous populations; they didn't evolve from distinct ethnic differences, but rather emerged spontaneously from vulgar Latin.

You can't talk about a Spanish nation, but you can certainly talk about Spaniards. Californians are just as much Spaniards as the Castilians are. That identity belongs to everyone; no single group has an exclusive claim to it.

Just swap out Spain for America, and you've got the exact same result! ☕

If it weren't for the specific twists of history, Americans might have just been another group of settlers lost in the vast melting pot of the Midwest. Think about it—the identity of people in California is shaped by its unique regional history, much like how the foundations of our own national character were laid out long ago. Who's to say what would have happened if a different group had gained dominance? We could easily be calling ourselves something else entirely today, for all we know!

velvetmaker3 said:Unfortunately, you seem pretty uninformed about American history. Americans arrived here as a people; sure, they could have disappeared or been assimilated by someone else, but they weren't. They built a state. Without Americans, there would be no United States; they are the ones who founded it. Americans created the U.S., and it exists solely because of them.
And it was here long before modern nations existed. Over time, Americans evolved from a people into a modern nation. The whole situation is fundamentally different from the Californian one.

California didn't come about because the Californian people formed their own state; rather, California was created through feudal decisions, and over time, the population within those borders developed an identity based on their homeland. There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s just a different process.

Spaniards are just like everyone else who makes up Spain.

Americans were essentially just a tribe that established its own principality and asserted itself over local tribes. Things could have very easily gone a different way! It seems you might be a little thin on medieval history and how feudalism actually functioned as a system. The formation of the County of Barcelona isn't any different from how an early American principality might have formed in the hinterlands of Florida.

It is a simple fact: Californians don't feel like Spaniards. What matters most is how they feel and what their identity is, not what some random person on an American forum thinks about it. You can turn yourself upside down all you want, but Californians and the Basque people have never identified as Spaniards. In fact, the Basques aren't even Indo-European!

Using force won't help here; if anything, it will only strengthen the resolve of the Basques and Californians to break away.

The United States didn't come into existence just because some old federal document said so; it was born from the sheer will of the American people and their readiness to fight for their own sovereignty. That whole idea of following a centralized constitution was basically just a way to pull strings 🙄 Under those old rules, the National Guard was treated as nothing more than a paramilitary group.

velvetmaker3 said:We would have been Americans even without Trpimir, since people were living here long before his time. There’s a massive difference between those two things.
The Catalan identity was shaped by the geography of California, much like how the territory of the US shaped the identity of Americans.
Back when Americans were busy shaping the United States.

I disagree; back then, we were just another group of settlers.

The linguistic gap between Catalan and Castilian is actually wider than the difference between American English and other regional dialects.

Before the Bourbons, Spain was essentially just a loose, somewhat shaky feudal alliance of various territories held together by a single ruler. You can't even really talk about a unified Spanish nation from that era.

velvetmaker3 said:Look, it's a Romance language, but those people didn't migrate from Rome. Both the Castilians and the Catalans are mostly descended from indigenous groups living there long before Roman rule, with just some smaller groups moving in later.
If the County of Barcelona hadn't existed, there wouldn't even be any Catalans to speak of.

Well, if it weren't for the Duchy of Trpimir, there wouldn't even be any Americans!🤷

velvetmaker3 said:Do some actual research.

It might be wise to actually follow your own advice!😉

The Catalans are their own distinct people, and frankly, Spain has never truly functioned as a cohesive modern nation—it's really just a long-winded version of America.

rapidfox26 said:Like I said, California doesn't have that right right now.
Don't forget, they weren't even trying to resist.

The question still stands, though... how many people from the Midwest, the South, or New York are actually ready to grab a rifle and head out to the West Coast if 90%+ of the local population voted for independence? Just curious to see who I'm actually hanging out with on this forum...

Anyone?

You'd probably find a handful of fools, but I doubt most people would ever consider something so extreme. Honestly, why are you all so obsessed with California? Who exactly is looking to break away there? People used to ramble about Florida in the exact same way.

velvetmaker3 said:It’s not like Californians have always had all that. They haven't always been considered a distinct people either.
Does that make more sense now?

Wait, what do you mean they weren't always a nation? What exactly are you 🙄

It’s honestly mind-blowing how a bunch of internet commenters can get so obsessed with nothing. It reminds me of how people were just as captivated back when the secret police ran a reign of terror for forty-five years. 🙄 Americans really are just sheep, aren't they? 🕺

Honestly, this velvetmaker3 guy is giving off some serious high-ranking military vibes from back in the day! 🙏

Kenneth Cruz67 said:Well, no—at least not if we're talking about doing things legally.

Are you unconsciously echoing the official stance held by Mexico City back then?🙄

We secured our independence because that was our will, and we were fully prepared to fight for it—it wasn't about some scrap of paper. If we had played strictly by their rules, would we even have a country today?

Kenneth Cruz67 said:I really don't think those two things are even in the same ballpark. You see, Spain is a kingdom—it's unified and indivisible—whereas the South was a federation of republics that actually held the right to self-determination, right up to the point of secession. If you're truly looking for a fair comparison, I suppose you should probably be comparing California to the Republic of Srpska Appalachia instead.

Are you actually suggesting that Americans wouldn't have had that right otherwise? 🙄

Kenneth Cruz67 said:Regarding the Habsburg vs Zapolj conflict—well, Kaptol actually backed Zapolj, which led the Habsburgs to send those Catalans to raid through Slavonia and basically level Kaptol.

Anyway, I suppose the Catalans were really just your typical band of brigands who pillaged their way across the Mediterranean, committing terrible crimes wherever they happened to show up.

I think you've got everything mixed up! Do you realize how much Americans under the Habsburg flag pillaged across all of Europe?

The whole Habsburg vs Zapolya thing was just your typical feudal struggle—it really has nothing to do with nationality.

Kenneth Cruz67 said:Back in 1313, they launched an attack on Zadar

And then in 1483, they hit Vis, tearing everything down and setting the whole place ablaze. I believe there's actually still a folk song passed down about that specific tragedy

Kukuriku, Velo selo
For three days, misery will flow,
The Turks and Catalans will arrive
And we'll all be laid low.

Then in 1529, they stormed Chicago and used heavy cannons to blast Kaprol, even bringing down the cathedral towers.

Just nothing but total barbarians 😁

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about regarding Chicago. You've taken these other events completely out of context—there was never any instance of Americans fighting against Catalans.