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Home › Sports › Formula 1 › Mexico City GP: Nov. 5-7, 2021

Mexico City GP: Nov. 5-7, 2021

Started by shadowmarlin22 · · 👁 16 views · 235 replies

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Participants shadowmarlin22cosmicridge5fadedwalker18Jason Campbell70silverviper44Susan Davis7Jacob Castillo70Douglas Roberts49Timothy Castillo6wiredseal7Raymond Anderson4Linda Peterson43William Gomez5Elizabeth MendozaAmanda Kellycrimsonjackal16Kyle Lopez2rapidstag2ruggedhawk20Sam Clark75ruggedcyclist56Drew Bennett68George Miller2wiredcyclist …
graniteharbor502 graniteharbor502 Regular
443 messages
joined Apr 2016
#161 ·
Sam Clark75 said:This really feels like a recurring theme throughout this season whenever Lujo finds himself stuck behind Norris, leaving him with absolutely no way to make a move. Or perhaps one must wonder if Lujo and Bottas are simply being far too timid to deal with a young kid or perhaps even dealing with the unpredictable nature of Ricco’s setup—though both theories remain equally plausible. If we consider the alternative scenario, where a driver is forced to squeeze the gap to stay close, they might find themselves too compromised by dirty air to actually execute an overtake. In such a case, Sergio Perez would likely have spent the final laps trailing Lujo all the way to the outskirts of town without ever managing to pass him.

As we approach the end of the season, I find myself wondering how fascinating it would be to conduct a formal analysis regarding how many overtakes actually occurred during the closing stages of these races. Without having the hard data in front of me, my personal impression of the season has been that track position is largely decided right at the starting lights; after that, the ultimate result seems to hinge primarily on strategy, weather conditions, and pit stop execution, along with any inevitable errors that occur in those moments. Even in those high-stakes thrillers where everyone is chasing until the checkered flag, there often isn't much passing left to do. The one exception that comes to mind is Bahrain, where Max Verstappen managed to overtake Lujo toward the end, though he subsequently had to relinquish that position, and a second attempt simply wouldn't materialize.

It was Lewis Hamilton who overtook Max Verstappen on the track itself during the race in Spain, whereas Max Verstappen was the one to overtake Lewis Hamilton in France.

Raymond Anderson4 said:Bottas went straight through to the first corner, so he could have easily veered to the left before Max arrived on his tail; instead, Bottas just let Max slip past without a fight. He could have at least closed the door, forcing Max to try the right side or something else entirely. Anything would have been preferable to what actually transpired here.
Even Max himself noted that he found the optimal racing line, which allowed him to brake much later. Had Max been positioned further to the right, he wouldn't have had that braking advantage, and given the angle of attack, Lewis Hamilton likely would have emerged in the lead after the first three corners.

How exactly is one supposed to close the door on a track that wide? 🤷
image

If Bottas had moved to the right, Max would have simply squeezed into the gap between them, creating a situation where Mercedes would be risking a collision between Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton—a risk that arguably favors Max, considering his standing in the championship.
wiredseal7 wiredseal7 Regular
320 messages
joined Jan 2009
#162 ·
It’s hardly "teamwork" when Toto Wolff and Lewis Hamilton go after Bottas like this. Sure, his start could’ve been cleaner—but if he’d just veered left, everyone would be screaming that he blocked Max Verstappen instead. Even Hamilton drifted right and ended up cutting off Sergio Perez.

No doubt Toto Wolff would’ve been thrilled if he’d actually managed to outmaneuver Max Verstappen in that corner.
Sam Clark75 Sam Clark75 Active Member
106 messages
joined Oct 2021
#163 ·
graniteharbor502 said:He jumped Lewis Hamilton for Max Verstappen in Spain right on the track near the end of the race, and then Max Verstappen got Lewis Hamilton in France.

Alright, so that's happened twice so far. Twice in 18 races. ☕ I just really hope the 2022 car design actually makes racing better like they promised—because without DRS, we'd basically never see anyone overtaking on track.
cosmicmoose2 cosmicmoose2 Active Member
66 messages
joined May 2016
#164 ·
wiredseal7 said:It’s totally uncalled for when Toto Wolff and Lewis Hamilton start throwing Bottas under the bus like this. Yeah, sure, his start could’ve been cleaner, but if he’d just moved left, people would be screaming that he left the middle open for Max Verstappen. I mean, even Hamilton drifted right and blocked Sergio Perez!

There's no doubt Toto Wolff would've been thrilled if he'd managed to squeeze Max Verstappen out in that corner...

Man, the pressure is insane... both Toto Wolff and Christian Horner spent half the weekend just venting and complaining about everything...
Amanda Kelly Amanda Kelly Regular
360 messages
joined Mar 2008
#165 ·
graniteharbor502 said:Come on, tell me how they could have shut him out on a track this wide? 🤷
If Bottas had just veered right, Max would've squeezed right between them, and then Mercedes would be praying they don't end up with a collision between Max and Lewis—which actually plays right into Max's hands since he's leading on points.

Bottas had the perfect setup to block him. Literally perfect!

Once Max gets past that rear tire or pulls right up to the front (while you're holding the inside line), you don't lift. You stay flat out as long as possible—even if you have to go wide—just so you don't let Max through. He shouldn't be able to pass unless he goes off track. What kind of "heavy braking" nonsense is that!? 😵

Let’s play a little hypothetical game here. If Max had been in Bottas’s shoes/position, who on earth was going to pass him there? Nobody. Not even theoretically. And the same goes for Lewis.

Positionally speaking, Mercedes had everything lined up perfectly before that first corner. Lewis on the inside, Bottas acting as the buffer, and then Max trailing behind. Right up until the braking zone. Then everything just went to hell.

To me, this is a massive driving error. Unacceptable. Especially given what the team and his teammate are dealing with right now.
No matter how much Toto talks or prepares the drivers before a race, it clearly wasn't enough.
Amanda Kelly Amanda Kelly Regular
360 messages
joined Mar 2008
#166 ·
wiredseal7 said:It’s not "teamwork" for Toto Wolff and Lewis Hamilton to be calling out Bottas over this. Sure, he could have had a better start, but still...

Give me a break. If I were Lewis Hamilton, I would've told him where to go. Period. I wouldn't even bother looking his way anymore.
What Bottas did was a massive, massive mistake. Or rather, what he failed to do.
Elizabeth Mendoza Elizabeth Mendoza Regular
821 messages
joined Oct 2020
#167 ·


And then the stylist acts all surprised when the crowd starts booing him at every single race.
Sam Clark75 Sam Clark75 Active Member
106 messages
joined Oct 2021
#168 ·
Roger Wright94 said:Give me a break. If I were Lewis, I’d have sent him straight to hell—nothing less. I wouldn't even look his way again.
What Valtteri did was a massive, massive mistake. Or rather, what he *didn't* do.

Yeah, because we've spent years—especially this season—expecting Valtteri to just suck it up and get out of the way whenever possible. He needs to clear a path so our Luxury driver can actually have a shot at the title. The team doesn't owe him a thing after how they tossed him aside.🙄
graniteharbor502 graniteharbor502 Regular
443 messages
joined Apr 2016
#169 ·
Roger Wright94 said:Bottas had the perfect setup to block him. Absolutely perfect!

When Max's tire is overlapping his rear wheel or pressing right up against his front—especially when he holds that inside line—you simply cannot lift off the throttle. You maintain your line as aggressively as necessary, even if it means drifting wide, because you refuse to let Max through; he shouldn't be able to pass unless he goes completely off-track. And what is this talk about "black braking"!?😵

Let us consider a hypothetical scenario for a moment, shall we? If Max had been placed in a Bottas-like position, who could have possibly overtaken him there? Truly, nobody. Not even theoretically. Not even Lewis Hamilton could have managed it.

From a positional standpoint, Mercedes held the ideal advantage heading into that first corner. With Lewis positioned on the inside, Bottas acting as a buffer, and Max following behind, they had everything under control until the braking phase. And then, quite suddenly, everything just fell apart.

To my mind, this represents a brutal driving error. It is simply unacceptable, especially considering the delicate situation the team and his own teammate are currently navigating.
No matter how much Toto Wolff might have spoken to or prepared his drivers before the race, it is painfully obvious that it wasn't nearly enough.

How exactly do you think the FIA or the wider racing community would react if Bottas had intentionally lunged at Max just to force him out of the race?
Does it really serve any logical purpose for Bottas to make such an unsportsmanlike move, particularly when it carries the risk of knocking himself out of the race in that very first corner? 🤷
Everything falls into ruin if we begin to expect that drivers in Formula 1 will stop racing and instead start deliberately crashing into one another...

One cannot reasonably expect Bottas to go out and win a championship on behalf of Lewis. Let Lewis show us what he is truly capable of on his own merit.
cosmicridge5 cosmicridge5 Regular
405 messages
joined Nov 2003
#170 ·
Elizabeth Mendoza Elizabeth Mendoza Regular
821 messages
joined Oct 2020
#171 ·
graniteharbor502 said:How do you think the FIA and the fans would react if Valtteri Bottas intentionally rammed Max Verstappen just to knock him out of the race?
Does it actually make sense for Bottas to pull a dirty stunt like that, especially when he’d likely take himself out in the first corner too? 🤷
Everything is going to hell if we expect drivers in Formula 1 to stop racing and start intentionally smashing into each other instead...

Look, Bottas was braking way, way earlier than he should have been. That's why he brings up Max. If he were in Max's position, he would have braked much later and closed the door on the outside line, because being on the outside gives you the advantage over the car on the inside.

Maybe Bottas just got spooked by a potential collision. Or maybe he's fed up with Lewis Hamilton and Mercedes and decided to sabotage them right before the season ends. Who knows? Personally, I'm leaning toward the second option.
We've already seen him give up positions to Max Verstappen a few times this season without much of a fight—even though they were talking to him over the radio.

Those Instagram digs aimed at Mercedes involving all that engine junk, plus the way he was reacting while watching the Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton crash on the screen behind him... it speaks volumes.
ruggedhawk20 ruggedhawk20 Regular
509 messages
joined Sep 2014
#172 ·
Hold up a second. Are Lewis Hamilton fanboys seriously expecting Valtteri Bottas to actually take down Max Verstappen?

What are you guys even smoking?
wiredseal7 wiredseal7 Regular
320 messages
joined Jan 2009
#173 ·
Richard Walker38 said:Valtteri Bottas was braking way too early—way before he should have. That’s why he brought up Max; if Max had been in Bottas's spot, he would've braked much later and shut the door on the outside line, keeping that advantage over whoever was on the inside.

Maybe Bottas just choked under pressure, or maybe he's just done with Lewis and Mercedes—sabotaging them right before the season ends because he doesn't care anymore. Who knows? Personally, I'm leaning toward the second option.
He's already handed over positions to Max Verstappen a few times this season without much of a fight—even with those radio prompts—since they announced he's leaving the team.

Those Instagram digs aimed at Mercedes—showing all that engine scrap—and the way he reacted watching the Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton collision on the screen behind him... it tells you everything you need to know.

Look, Bottas is the kind of driver who leaves space fairly; he isn't out there forcing people off the track like Lewis Hamilton or Max Verstappen... So why would he suddenly start doing the dirty work now, especially after being kicked over to Alfa Romeo? Sure, he lacks the backbone to stage a real rebellion, but he's a master of passive-aggression.😁

If he had braked properly—without being aggressive—I still think Max would've had the edge. Besides the racing line, Red Bull Racing handles braking a bit better here, and he probably would've caught him at the next corner, if not sooner. He might have even messed up Lewis Hamilton's run, potentially holding his own position or letting someone else squeeze through.
graniteharbor502 graniteharbor502 Regular
443 messages
joined Apr 2016
#174 ·
Richard Walker38 said:Valtteri Bottas was braking incredibly early—far earlier than he really needed to. That’s why he brings up Max; if Max had been in the exact same spot Bottas was, he would have braked much later and defended his line by squeezing the other car from the outside, effectively maintaining the advantage of being on the outer edge of the corner.

Perhaps Bottas simply lost his nerve during the collision, or perhaps he has grown indifferent toward Lewis and Mercedes, choosing to undermine them as the season draws to a close—who can truly say? Personally, I find myself leaning toward that second possibility.
It has happened several times already this season; ever since the announcement that he is leaving the team, he seems to have yielded positions to Max Verstappen without any real fight, even when he was being urged over the radio.

Those Instagram jabs directed at Mercedes, involving all that engine debris, along with the way he reacted while watching the crash between Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton on the screen behind him, seem to speak volumes about his current mindset.

While we might be able to question what was driving Bottas in that moment, the undeniable fact remains that Lewis Hamilton also braked early.
I will show this image once more, illustrating the situation on the track immediately before the braking zone:
image

The most crucial element of this entire scenario is that since Hamilton secured pole position, he should have been the one dictating the pace and the strategy entirely.
Elizabeth Mendoza Elizabeth Mendoza Regular
821 messages
joined Oct 2020
#175 ·
graniteharbor502 said:We can question Bottas's motivation all we want, but let's not forget that Hamilton has pulled back on the brakes before too.
Look at this image again—this is exactly how things looked on track right before the braking zone:
image

The bottom line here is simple: Hamilton took pole. He’s the one in control, and he should be dictating exactly how this race goes.

That's fine and all, I just want to touch on what would have happened if Max Verstappen was in Bottas's shoes. Bottas actually braked earliest of the three because both drivers lunged right past him the second he hit the brakes.

He saw there was absolutely no way to defend against Max Verstappen, so his brain probably just went "fuck it, I'm out" and he slammed the brakes. He isn't interested in doing the dirty work for Hamilton anymore, even if he won't say it out loud. A few subtle jabs are enough for him; he's probably too much of a gentleman to make a scene in public.
Jack Kelly5 Jack Kelly5 Active Member
117 messages
joined Sep 2019
#176 ·
Roger Wright94 said:Valtteri Bottas had the perfect setup to block him. Like, literally perfect!
Once Max gets his nose right up against that rear tire—or even just pulls alongside the front while he's holding the inside line—you just don't lift. You keep it pinned as long as you have to, maybe even drift wide if you have to, but you don't let Max through. He shouldn't be able to pass unless he goes off track. What kind of heavy braking was that!?😵
Just, I don't know, let's play out a little hypothetical here. If Max had been in a Bottas-like position, who actually passes him there? Honestly, nobody. Not even theoretically. And Lewis Hamilton wouldn't either.
Going into that first corner, from a positioning standpoint, Mercedes had it completely dialed in. You've got Lewis on the inside, then Bottas acting as this sort of buffer, and then Max is trailing behind. Everything was set until the braking zone, and then... well, everything just fell apart.
To me, this looks like a massive driving error. Just unacceptable, really, especially given what the team and his teammate are going through right now.
No matter how much Toto Wolff talks to them or tries to prep the drivers before a race, I guess it clearly wasn't enough this time.

You hit the nail on the head with your take; he should’ve just muscled into Max. It’s not enough that they’ve already been squeezed out twice; he needs to push a bit more if an influencer wants to actually become a champion. I mean, Mass will probably just give them a +5 second penalty anyway, so it’s not like it matters too much.
Richard Walker38 said:


And then the "style expert" acts all surprised when the crowd starts booing him at every single race.
This is honestly just gross. And coming from a guy who’s arguably more protected by the FIA than a lifeguard in a calm Florida beach, someone who’s spent their entire career driving top-tier cars.
👎
graniteharbor502 graniteharbor502 Regular
443 messages
joined Apr 2016
#177 ·
Some individual has put together an absolutely stellar video demonstrating how Max Verstappen is picking up every single two-tone shade whether he's looking at the inside, the middle, or the outside during the Mexico City race, which really makes any further debates about whether they could have stopped him—fairly speaking, of course—seem quite redundant, don't you think?
https://streamable.com/af4ijs
Elizabeth Mendoza Elizabeth Mendoza Regular
821 messages
joined Oct 2020
#178 ·
There you go—the perfect breakdown of how Max behaved when he was stuck in the middle of that second group. It’s wild looking back at how much he had to brake compared to Valtteri Bottas yesterday, and just how much extra distance he had to cover to stay clear of the Mercedes-Benz before swinging wide to pass the Ferrari on the outside.
graniteharbor502 graniteharbor502 Regular
443 messages
joined Apr 2016
#179 ·
Richard Walker38 said:Therein lies the perfect illustration of how Max conducts himself when he finds himself squeezed in the middle of that second grouping. Have you noticed how much harder he was braking than Valtteri Bottas yesterday, or how he widened his line just enough to shield himself from the Mercedes before eventually sweeping around the outside to overtake the Ferrari?

Indeed, but that is simply who Max is; he possesses both the knowledge and the sheer skill to pull it off.😁
If you look closely, you will see that absolutely no one could best him as he charged into that first turn in Mexico City.
Amanda Kelly Amanda Kelly Regular
360 messages
joined Mar 2008
#180 ·
graniteharbor502 said:How do you think the FIA and the fans would react if Bottas intentionally rammed Max Verstappen just to knock him out of the race?
Does Valtteri Bottas really think playing dirty is worth it? As if making an unsportsmanlike move is actually going to help him, especially when he risks knocking himself out of the race in the very first corner. Not exactly a genius plan. 🤷
Everything’s gone to hell if we’re expecting Formula 1 drivers to actually race instead of just intentionally smashing into one another.

What kind of reckless driving and mindless crashing is this?
I was only ever talking about my line through the corners. Nothing else.
Look, you can't just let a car on the outside line pull up alongside you. You’ve got to stay ahead—at least a quarter or a third of a car length—if you want to hold your ground.
If the first turn is a right-hander followed by a left-hander, you want to drift wide on that first one. It lets you square off the corner so you can clip the inside edge of the second turn perfectly. Simple physics, really.

At the end of the day, Lewis and Max have both given each other everything they've got, over and over again.
Either the car's gonna clip the curb on the outside or it’s going straight off track. There isn't much else to it.
Mercedes had everything under control until the moment Bottas braked a little too hard.

graniteharbor502 said:You can't exactly expect Bottas to go out there and snatch a championship for Lewis. It’s on Lewis to show everyone what he's actually capable of.

Sure thing.
Honestly, I’m not even a little bit sorry about how things went down.
Looking back at what went down in Turn 1 during yesterday's race, I can't help but feel Valtteri Bottas could have played a different role for the sake of the team and his teammate. He could've handled himself in a way that wouldn't have cost him much, but would've actually helped out.

And we’re still left wondering why Bottas handled things that way.
It’s night and day. We’re looking at a massive gap here, and I can't decide if we're watching a simple driver error or if Bottas's decision-making is just fundamentally flawed.

I’m pretty convinced this was just a mistake or a lapse in judgment. Bottas has always been a team player up until now—someone you could actually manage. Plus, Toto Wolff is his manager, after all.

If Bottas decided to go rogue, he certainly picked the perfect moment to do it.
Man, I’d have a hard time forgiving him for something like that. Traitors are easily my least favorite kind of people.

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