2017 Azerbaijan Grand Prix: June 23–25

mellowtiger83 said:What do you mean World War 2...

This is wild 😂

neonfox65 said:This is peak 😂

What am I even supposed to write back 🙂? I have to play by their rules—all this talk about how the British want to take down the German, and before long, it’ll be 🙂.

Wait, hold on—so Jean Todt isn't French!? Right, of course! It's a three-way war; everyone against the German!! Everyone is just out there sucking up to Lewis Hamilton, and they'd probably find a way to screw over Sebastian Vettel if they could. 😁

And then there's Daniel Ricciardo, who just sat there watching it all unfold; he's part of that same hostile crowd because he actually had the nerve to defend Lewis Hamilton. It's like the USA teamed up with the British and the French.🙂.

Give me a break! Hamilton? Vettel? Please. Everything about today feels artificial. It’s nothing like the old days when drivers actually had guts, even though they were basically putting their heads in a bag every single time they strapped into those cars. They knew how to scrap if things got heated. Nowadays, everyone just whines over the team radio, more worried about protecting their precious image than winning.

But let's take this one step at a time.

Hamilton—what an absolute jerk! That's common knowledge at this point. Every single teammate he's ever had has struggled with him and his personality. From Alonso, to Button, and finally Nico Rosberg (who knew him best and stayed with him the longest). He’s notorious for being incredibly mentally unstable whenever things aren't going his way. We all remember his nonsense during the McLaren days—the clashes with Alonso, lying during FIA investigations, leaking telemetry online, and all those psychological games played against Rosberg.
Mercedes knew Rosberg would walk away if he clinched the title, but they acted clueless afterward.

Rosberg told them right at the start of the season. The guy simply couldn't deal with having three massive egos in the Mercedes garage (Wolff, Lauda, and Hamilton). So, Hamilton certainly has plenty of examples to learn from on how to be an even bigger jerk.

As for the race itself, Hamilton is famous for that habit of braking hard and slowing down abruptly right before a restart. It’s what they call "bunching up the field." As far as I'm concerned, he should have just gone for Vettel. It’s a shame he didn't slam him into the wall. Where is he even going to end up if he keeps up this crap?

Karma is a bitch!

Vettel—another total jerk! It's a well-known fact. Every teammate he's had has dealt with his issues and his temperament. Everyone remembers Multi21 and the drama with Mark Webber. Vettel lacks any semblance of self-control, and it costs him every single time. He didn't have it today, either. He’s also extremely mentally fragile when performance slips. It’s always someone else's fault. Never him. Someone else always messed up, while he supposedly did everything perfectly. It’s the same cycle, season after season. There's no chance of a title this year because he blew it today, and that bad reputation with the FIA has been following him since last year when he was swearing at Charlie Whitting.

Karma is a bitch!

Conclusion!

Both of them are remarkably similar in their flaws. All the great drivers who have won championships have had egos that reach the stratosphere. They’ve all pulled stunts and behaved badly, whether toward teammates or rivals.

If nothing else, at least we finally saw a flicker of actual passion in this otherwise tedious F1.

rustyridge10 said:I came across this while at work and set it up quickly; generally speaking, this data suggests that Lewis Hamilton didn't actually perform any sudden deceleration or brake testing.

What’s the source?
And more importantly, what exactly are these graphs supposed to prove? That there was a reduction in speed while navigating the corner? No shit, Sherlock...
Even Sebastian Vettel had telemetry curves that looked similar to this, yet he still ended up behind Lewis Hamilton.
If you look back just before that second restart, Vettel stayed right on Hamilton's tail, and honestly, that changes the entire context of the situation. Everyone is dialed in and primed to hunt down whoever is in front of them. In an environment like that, Lewis does exactly what he did. If you ask me, it was a blatant provocation to cause a collision. 👎
However, if we are being truly honest, what Sebastian Vettel did immediately following that was actually far worse. 👎

mellowtiger83 said:Look, everyone knows what Vettel did. It doesn't matter what the British or Germans think. Even Jean Todt—the same guy who ran things with both the Germans and the Italian crew—sharply criticized the move.

In my opinion, Vettel misjudged his entry into the corner. He went in too hot, trying to set up for acceleration, while simultaneously underestimating Hamilton's gamesmanship. That leads to the rear-end collision. There were no immediate consequences, but they'll catch up to him later. Then, fueled by rage over a stupid, unnecessary incident, Vettel lashes out at Hamilton with shouting and that repeated side-swipe—which also didn't result in any damage to the cars.
Is Vettel to blame? Absolutely.
Was Vettel punished? Yes. With a pretty decent penalty that, by the way, cost him the win.
Was the penalty fair? Seems fine to me. Some people disagree, but we can go in circles on that all day.
Should Vettel have been disqualified? Not in my book. But hey, I don't really care if he was. If he gets tossed out, fine. Just make sure the same standards apply to everyone else. That’s all I ask.
Anything unclear? Anyone want to argue (besides the penalty itself)?

USA 2008, Kimi and Lewis. At that moment, Kimi was a title contender and a direct rival to Lewis.



Lewis rams him from behind in the pit lane and knocks him out of the race. Let me repeat: Kimi was a direct competitor, a championship contender, and the defending champion.
So, tell me how Lewis was punished for that?

If the stewards had been just one shade stricter with Lewis, he wouldn't have won the title. One tiny shift in severity and that championship is gone. And who knows when—or if—he'd ever get it back?

mellowtiger83 said:Look, you guys know exactly what Vettel did. It doesn't matter what any British or German fans say—even Jean Todt, who worked his way up alongside both the Germans and the Italian crew, slammed this move.

Forget about comparing this to World War 2. Vettel reacted to a driver in a way that was incredibly sad, ugly, and totally unprofessional. But apparently, he’s innocent? Purely innocent? Listen to yourselves. It’s not like this is his first time, or even his second, but this time he really crossed the line.

If Hamilton had done that, people here would be tearing him apart like a dog. No debate. There have to be limits. You have to call it like it is.

And who decided Vettel is innocent and didn't deserve a penalty???

God, enough with the nonsense from you and all those Jorge fanboys claiming Vettel needs an extra penalty because "Oh, poor Hamilton, he hurt his wrist getting out of the car" or "His mechanic messed up his fit."

Just a bunch of kids acting like experts over something totally obvious...
Hamilton provoked him, Vettel took the bait like a complete idiot, lost his cool, and ended up getting hit with a massive penalty for it...

You can try to play philosopher all you want, but Hamilton clearly went out of his way to provoke him. You can make up all the transparent excuses you want...
An F1 car with 1000 hp doesn't accelerate like a bicycle; in a fraction of a second, it covers several meters. You hear that sound when a car sitting 2-3 meters behind another slams into the lead car just because the guy in front tapped the brakes...

And yeah, let's be real, the restart rules are absolutely garbage and super vague on this point, so Hamilton might get away with some excuses without a penalty, but that doesn't mean he's as innocent as they claim...

Then Vettel, being a total moron in a rage, reacts by veering in from the side. Honestly, I have no clue what was going through that kid's head...
He's waving his arms aggressively at Hamilton, and there's a good chance Hamilton doesn't give a damn and won't even turn his head...
So this guy, in a blind fury, jerks the steering wheel yelling, "Look me in the eye, you jerk!" Given Vettel's temperament, it's entirely possible that's exactly what happened...

But so what? What's the big deal?
No damage to Hamilton's car, no damage to Vettel's car, and Vettel gets the biggest possible in-race penalty. Period.

All this crap about how he's just like Senna's or Schumacher's kid is just a pre-planned attempt to bail out a driver. It's an insult to common sense.🤦

At the end of the day, none of this would even matter if Toto Wolff hadn't stepped in to make sure he wasn't left to ruin his race alone...
Because once Hamilton falls into trouble, suddenly we need to punish Vettel again for stuff that Hamilton caused himself or that his mechanic caused... and now we have to chant about how Vettel shouldn't have been penalized at all. 🙂
Yeah right, a 30-second penalty during the race is nothing. 🙄

But the stupidest part of it all is this guy Todt acting like he's some saint greater than the Pope...
The guy spent years at Ferrari, and everyone used to complain that he'd be biased as the FIA head, so now he has to act like he's the absolute opposite and totally against Ferrari. 😍

And even though the FIA is out here hunting for extra penalties, Toto says the whole thing is just pure stupidity...
Brundle—who’s obviously head over heels for Lewis Hamilton—calls it total nonsense. Then you've got Anderson, who might actually be worse than Brundle when it comes to Hamilton, calling it nonsense too...

As for Ricciardo, the guy you're quoting doesn't lecture anyone about extra penalties or play the moral compass. He just gives his take on things, which could easily be right, but he does it without all the preaching and whining. On this subject, he’s basically a massive 👍
Villeneuve, on the other hand, makes it crystal clear that this is complete garbage and nothing to take seriously, though he’s definitely sucking up to the Italians, so he's probably overcompensating in the opposite direction...

Bottom line: Lewis and his army of fanboys are going to engineer some extra penalty that'll be just perfect for Todt, Mercedes, Liberty, and especially for the guys at Red Bull who are riding high right now—maybe even more for Silverstone...
It’s unbelievable. After Vettel's disqualification at the US Grand Prix, look at this: Lewis Hamilton and Vettel arrive in Austria sitting on exactly 141 points each. 🙂

It's the race of the season. Two rivals absolutely out for blood in a title fight, entering perfectly tied on points. How much better could it get?!
Ticket sales for the Red Bull Ring and Silverstone are hitting the roof. We're talking attendance levels like we haven't seen in 50 years. 🎉

Everyone's happy, everyone's satisfied, everything is great...
Unless Sergio completely loses his mind and yells, "Screw all your bullshit, Ferrari is boycotting Austria and Silverstone and every race ever until Todt and Charlie get kicked in the ass..."
Then we'll see what Liberty does once they realize their investment went straight down the drain and their stocks, which were worth gold yesterday, are suddenly worth less than a bankrupt startup's. 🙂
They’ll probably just decide that Ferrari should keep getting paid exactly what they've been getting, and then everything will be fine again and everyone will be best buddies forever. 🙂

@mellowtiger83/">@@mellowtiger83, it feels like we aren't even reading the same thread here!☕

Ever since those first two "hits" happened, most people on this forum have been stuck on the idea that Vettel is the *only* one to blame for the crash.

But honestly, looking at that footage from swifttiger75, all those arguments about how it went down just fall apart.
Basically, when it comes to that first collision, Hamilton is clearly the one at fault with that shady little maneuver he pulled—which, hey, you actually agreed with me on.
My point is, he absolutely HAD to be penalized for that!!!!
He had to!!!!

Since he caused the first incident, it’s a direct chain reaction, making him partially responsible for the second one (and look, I’m not saying what Vettel did afterward was technically okay under FIA rules. As a driver and just a human being, I get why he did it—but I'm NOT making excuses for him) and then later for the SC and the whole withdrawal... there's a lot to unpack there.

So, long story short:
Vettel gets punished—and good, because he deserves it for what happened.
Hamilton DOESN'T get punished—even though he should have (I don't care about that excuse regarding his head protection; if his mechanics are sloppy, that's their problem)—it's ridiculous.
Bottas DOESN'T get punished—though he should have (blaming that damn curb for being in the wrong place at the wrong time is just laughable).
What I'm trying to say is: either enforce the rules properly or don't bother at all!!!!
This is just straight-up selective enforcement!!!!
It's like they only follow the rules for some drivers and ignore them for everyone else!!!

@Tibi

My position is clear: I am against any additional or retroactive penalties. The decision was made, and it should stand.

Whatever nonsense Jean Todt is rambling about is his own business. Now they're acting as if they were too lenient before? Please.

Ad acta. That's it. Any further move is just stupidity and completely pointless.

If they didn't know how to react on the spot, then there is no need to react now. And now we hear they might consider last year's Whitening profanity—which was supposedly forgiven because Sebastian Vettel apologized—but apparently, it isn't anymore.

Screw braking zones and who lunged at whom; you could spend forty-five years arguing about which bull charged harder, and it wouldn't change a damn thing.
So, is anyone actually heading out to Austria or what? 🤷

graniteharbor502 said:Source?
And another thing, what exactly are those graphs supposed to prove? That he slowed down mid-corner? No shit, Sherlock...
Even Sebastian Vettel had similar telemetry curves and still ended up behind Lewis Hamilton.
Right before that second restart, Vettel was staying right on Hamilton's tail, and honestly, that changes the whole dynamic. Everyone is dialed in and hunting down whoever is in front of them. In a situation like that, Lewis does exactly what he did. To me, it looks like a blatant attempt to force a collision. 👎
But then again, what Vettel did immediately after that was even worse 👎

I'll dig it up when I get home, but the real kicker in that graph is that "steady deceleration"—it’s the complete opposite of a brake test, which is what everyone keeps insisting happened.
Looks like I deserved my karma for missing the bigger picture, my bad...

mellowtiger83 said:@tibi

My stance is simple: I’m not for any extra or retroactive penalties. The decision was made, let it stand.

Whatever Toth wants to ramble about is his business. Now they're acting like they were being too soft? Give me a break.

Ad acta. Move on! Any further move is just stupid and pointless.

If they didn't know how to react on the spot, they don't need to react now. And now there's talk about considering last year's swearing regarding Whitening—which was supposedly forgiven because Vettel apologized, but apparently not anymore.

I don't blame him one bit for the Withing situation. At the end of the day, if he got penalized for that, then Hamilton should have been penalized in the US too...

Look, setting aside the fact that Vettel told Charlie he's a jerk and to get lost—Hamilton didn't use those exact words, but basically said the same thing through subtext... essentially calling him chronically incompetent and saying his decisions are a joke.

And let's be damn honest, both guys are largely right. The officiating is anything but consistent. It makes zero sense that some drivers get hammered while others get a free pass for the exact same things, or even worse.

If Vettel hadn't received any penalty at all and somehow managed to pull his stunt right at the restart—finishing ahead of Hamilton just before the red flag because he slammed into him—you can bet Hamilton wouldn't be playing nice either.

And that's exactly what happened in Mexico. Charlie was making such a massive deal out of an infraction that was painfully obvious, yet here we are. I mean, even Vettel's intentional or unintentional contact wasn't nearly as blatant as cutting the track to overtake. What kind of logic is that?
Meanwhile, Charlie spends days playing philosopher, wondering if he should penalize or if someone should give a position back. 🤦
Then we have Vettel calling him a jerk on the team radio, yet Charlie—who is doing his job tragically poorly—isn't getting fired. 😵
Just like how FOM isn't being penalized for posting this message while carefully hiding a mountain of other messages from the public.

As for reversing the penalty, it would only serve as more proof of the FIA's shameful and chronic incompetence.

Here is what Jenson Button has to say about it...
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/b...versy-924662/?

It's the absolute truth. The penalty was already harsh compared to much more serious contacts, so a retroactive penalty is just overkill squared.

And when Jenson Button—a guy who isn't exactly known for controversy, isn't a Vettel fanboy, and is a Briton at that—says it, then everything is pretty damn clear. ☕

rustyridge10 said:I'll find it when I get home. The key thing in that graph is the "steady deceleration," which is the exact opposite of a brake test like everyone keeps insisting.
My bad, I clearly missed the forest for the trees. My apologies.

Look, it's already established that Hamilton didn't just slam the brakes and die right in the middle of the track...
That wasn't even an issue before this graph showed up, and it’s still not an issue: he was braking. Period.

But that graph doesn't prove anything special here, other than explaining why Hamilton isn't being penalized under the current rules.
Even if he were penalized or not, it wouldn't change the fact that Vettel's reaction immediately after was what earned him his penalty...
At this point, whether Hamilton gets a penalty or not is so incredibly irrelevant that it's basically meaningless.

And let's be real, there's no way Hamilton's penalty could have been equal to Vettel's. Regardless of how you look at it, his should have been smaller...
Even if they did penalize him, his infraction would've probably netted him a 5 or 10-second penalty at the end of the race, whereas Vettel got hit with the full 30-second hammer.

But it's also blindingly obvious why Vettel brought up the brake test...
When you're exiting a corner under normal circumstances, you hit the gas, not the brakes. It doesn't matter if the braking was hard or soft, gradual or sudden...

Formula 1 cars don't accelerate weakly—they launch. When two cars are that close together, even just lifting off the throttle can cause a collision, let alone slamming the brakes right when everyone expects acceleration...

That graph just proves Hamilton stayed within the literal wording of the rules and won't be punished by them. It doesn't mean he's innocent, nor does it mean the Safety Car rules are actually smart or well-thought-out. They could definitely be better...

Here's a video from Anderson that breaks the whole thing down perfectly.


And if anyone tries to claim Anderson is some kind of Vettel or Ferrari fanboy at three in the afternoon, they're delusional.🤣

Timothy Castillo6 said:I don't give a damn about braking zones or who rammed whom. You could argue about that crap for 45 years and still not be done.
So, is anyone actually going to Austria or what? 🤷

Sorry, but I can't make it. Going would basically be grounds for divorce.😬
If I went and caused trouble with the girls, there'd be zero chance of me coming home...

Jerry Moore61 said:Oh, give me a break! Comparing Lewis Hamilton to Sebastian Vettel? This whole era feels completely manufactured. It’s nothing like the old days when drivers actually had some grit, even though they were basically putting their heads in a bag every single time they climbed into those cars. They knew how to scrap if things got heated. Nowadays, everyone just whines over the team radio and worries about protecting their precious public image.

But let’s look at this logically.

Hamilton—what an absolute jerk. That’s no secret. Every single teammate he’s ever had has struggled with his personality. From Fernando Alonso, to Jenson Button, and finally Nico Rosberg (who probably knew him best after all that time). He’s notorious for being incredibly mentally fragile whenever things aren't going his way. We all remember the nonsense from his McLaren days—the clashes with Fernando Alonso, the lying during FIA investigations, leaking telemetry online, and all those psychological games played against Rosberg.
Mercedes knew Rosberg would walk away if he clinched the title, but they acted like they were clueless afterward.

Rosberg told them straight at the start of the season. Honestly, how could anyone handle three massive egos at Mercedes all at once? You had Toto Wolff, Niki Lauda, and Lewis Hamilton. It’s no wonder Lewis learned exactly how to be such an arrogant prick from the best.

As for the race itself, Hamilton is famous for that habit of braking hard right before a restart—you know, "bunching up the field." If you ask me, I wish Sebastian Vettel had just ended it right there. It’s almost a shame he didn't hit the wall. Where is he even going to end up if he keeps acting like this?

Karma is a bitch!

And then there's Vettel—another total jerk. It’s a pattern with him too; every teammate he's had has dealt with his temperament. We can't forget the Multi21 incident and all that drama with Mark Webber. Vettel simply lacks self-control, and it costs him every single time. He didn't have it today, either. He’s also extremely unstable when results don't go his way. It’s always someone else's fault, never his. Someone else always messed up while he supposedly did everything perfectly. It’s the same cycle, year after year. There's no way he's winning a title this year because he blew it today, and he's still carrying that baggage from last year after his outburst toward Charlie Whiting.

Karma is a bitch!

The bottom line is this!

Both of them are remarkably similar in their flaws. All these legendary drivers who grab championships tend to have egos that reach the stratosphere. They all pull stunts and act out, whether it's against their own teammates or their rivals.

If nothing else, at least we finally saw a spark of actual passion in this otherwise tedious Formula 1.

👍 Exactly. Both of them are terrible drivers. The difference is that in this instance, Vettel looked like the fool because Lewis Hamilton lured him into a trap... and even though it was a stupid move, Vettel could have easily punctured one tire or both. What then?

http://www.thisisf1.com/2017/06/29/m...rest-incident/

For all the experts out there trying to play detective about why Lewis Hamilton's headrest came loose...
It wasn't actually ripped off or broken. It just wasn't clamped down properly, which looks like a design flaw rather than a mistake by the mechanics...
At least, that's the story Mercedes is selling us.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/40444283

It’s pretty funny hearing Ross Brawn speak. He’s clearly miles ahead of that old fossil Jean Todt...
If this whole mess between Sebastian Vettel and Lewis Hamilton proves anything, it's that both Todt and Charlie deserve to be tossed straight into the trash along with their jobs...
Then there's Jenson Button. The guy is a total class act and actually has a brain. Honestly, he should probably beg for one of those empty leadership roles; I think he’d kill it in any of them...

I’m actually pretty sure he’d be way more impartial than the two clowns running things right now...

Sergey Sirotkin saying

🤦

Look, you said what the official called it. So just give me the referee's verdict—not what Sergey Sirotkin or Jacques Villeneuve think about it...

As far as the officials go, they clearly weren't all in agreement that it was intentional. Because if they were, I don't see why they wouldn't have just gone public with it and explicitly stated it was an intentional hit in the penalty report (which isn't how they usually do it, they just call it dangerous driving)... plus, if it really was intentional, why wasn't there a Black flag issued...

Good grief, it’s like I have to draw you a map. They didn't issue a Black flag because they simply decided against it, but you can tell they're looking into further penalties.

And you still haven't answered my other question. How does a steering wheel just jerk out of nowhere like that? That's the main thing I need you to answer!

The steering wheel didn't just jerk on its own; that hit was intentional. It’s quite interesting how things shift at Mercedes—they get all the favoritism while Sebastian Vettel is left to deal with the bias from certain fans!

Someone should just go ahead and post those radio transcripts from last year's Mexican Grand Prix, then we can all stop pretending that Sebastian Vettel and Ferrari weren't being treated like they were under heavy guard.

mellowtiger83 said:Someone please just post the radio transcripts from last year's Mexican Grand Prix. Then maybe we can stop pretending Sebastian Vettel and Ferrari aren't being treated like royalty protected by the establishment.

Seriously, what’s worse than calling Charlie a jerk? Is there anyone here who actually thinks he’s a saint? 🙂

Let’s talk about his calls and how the FIA operates for a second...
Is calling Charlie a jerk really worse than lying straight to the race officials or cooking up penalties just to grab a podium for yourself?

Or is it worse than testing a current car and tires while ignoring every rule in the book?

Is it worse than diving into a direct championship rival and knocking them right out of the race?

Lewis Hamilton did all three and didn't face any serious consequences—hell, some people don't even get penalized at all. What does that tell you?

Maybe he's just untouchable, like he's got a permanent shield over everything he does?
Or maybe the FIA has just always been criminally inconsistent with their rulings and penalties...
Like they're more interested in reflecting whoever holds the most political power in Formula 1 rather than following logic, the rules, or basic honesty...

I mean, hello? We're talking about an organization that handed Fernando Alonso the win in Singapore 2008, even though it was blindingly obvious Nelson Piquet Jr. hit the wall and would have won if he hadn't. He only won because of that setup...
And to make it even more insane, they actually let him keep those points, despite the victory being a total farce orchestrated by the leadership...

So yeah, let's talk about "fairness" when it comes to the FIA and how they hand out penalties. 🤦