2013 Canadian GP - Montreal (June 9)

Jason Campbell70 said:Just being blunt.
If we are going to discuss statistics—actual, objective numbers—then let us look at that 109-109 score against a driver who finished the season in second place only to become the world champion the very next year.

Well, it seems to me that Vettel had those elite, championship-winning teams behind him compared to his teammates. 😍

I am not grasping at straws here. If the score sits at 109-109, isn't it obvious to anyone with even a basic grasp of mathematics that there wasn't a clear victor? And even if one were to apply the secondary tie-breaking criteria used to determine rankings when points are equal, does Alonso emerge as the winner? No; he actually ends up, quite remarkably, as the loser in that specific head-to-head matchup.
Vettel has consistently outperformed every single one of his teammates throughout his career. If he manages to maintain this trend until he retires, wouldn't that data suggest he stands even above someone like Ayrton Senna, or perhaps even Michael Schumacher?

Jason Campbell70 said:Hardly.
Let’s stick to actual stats and objective numbers for a second. Let's talk about that 109-109 score against a guy who finished second that year, only to go out and win the championship the next season.

Yeah, but it looks pretty obvious when you consider all those powerhouse teams Vettel had behind him. 😍

And what was Hamilton in 2007?
A double, triple... fifteen-time world champion?
Or was he maybe just a rookie? 🤷

The fact that Hamilton won in 2008 is basically proof that Alonso—who actually ended 2007 looking worse than him—is a better driver than both Hamilton and Vettel. 😵
That's some special logic right there.😂

And what if, I don't know, Mark Webber won six titles with some random team between 2014 and 2020... does that make Vettel the greatest of all time just because he beat him?
Or maybe our dear friend Rubens is the GOAT? After all, he lost his head-to-head battles against teammates who racked up eight titles combined. 😲

Anyway, let's wrap up this nonsense...
Give me one single relevant metric where Alonso beats Vettel...
Any. One.

Total Formula 1 wins, Pole Positions, podiums, points, championships, average race finish, average qualifying position, overtaking stats, qualifying head-to-head vs Vettel, race result head-to-head vs Vettel...

Is there *anything* where Alonso comes out on top in the time since Vettel entered Formula 1 (from the US Grand Prix 2007 + Canadian Grand Prix 2007 until now)? I mean, every single race they ran together.

Honestly, I have no clue. Maybe there's some obscure category somewhere, but I genuinely don't know it. 🤷
So please, feel free to enlighten me.

Until you drop even one legitimate stat or criterion proving he's better, I'm going to keep thinking this whole "Alonso is better" argument is just playground rambling.

stormybadger8 said:And what was Lewis Hamilton even doing back in 2007?
Two-time, three-time... fifteen-time world champion?
Could he have been a rookie? 🤷

A Rookie who actually fought for the title.

stormybadger8 said:The fact that Lewis Hamilton took the 2008 title just proves my point. He was actually the weaker driver compared to Fernando Alonso at the end of that 2007 season. Doesn't that show Alonso is truly the superior talent when you look at Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel? 😵
This is something special.😂

Read with understanding.

stormybadger8 said:What if we actually assume Mark Webber wins six titles with some team between 2014 and 2020? What would that even imply? Would it suddenly mean Sebastian Vettel is the greatest of all time just because he managed to beat him? Or does greatness work differently than that?
Could our dear Rubens actually be the greatest of them all? He was constantly losing those teammate battles against drivers who combined for eight world titles. Is that enough to define a legacy? 😲

A bad parallel.

stormybadger8 said:Is there just one specific metric that proves Alonso is better than Vettel?
Any of them.

Clear eyes.

Maybe my thoughts aren't exactly sound. Maybe I'm just missing the bigger picture?
Maybe reality isn't quite what it seems.

I just don't get it. How is it that even after Vettel's third straight title, after God knows how many broken records, and after yet another dominant win following those crushing qualifying sessions... people are still out there debating whether all of Vettel's successes were actually deserved?
How is it that after the last race—held on completely neutral ground—the crowd was booing Vettel? And why him specifically? Why were they giving the other two standing ovations while he was the only one getting the cold shoulder?
Why does Vettel still have such a measly following compared to the other drivers? Even here on this forum.
How is that possible? He’s arguably the best, a record-breaker, absolutely dominant.

Clearly, there is more to the story...

I'll quote a recent post I wrote on Football, regarding a very similar debate:

Jason Campbell70 said:Simply put, some things aren't just about the numbers.

It’s funny, Jason Campbell70, seeing you spit on Alonso just like you used to. You spent forever dragging his championship merits, his personal life, and whatever other garbage you and your little band of "fans" on this forum felt like throwing at him...

And don't even get me started on Vettel. You treated him like a god until he was in the "wrong" team, then suddenly he wasn't so great once he started beating the "true" favorite in the "right" team.

Aside from claiming you've got "better eyes" or some other useless cliché, I honestly don't see a single actual argument coming from you...
zato 👋

stormybadger8 said:Regarding that point, Vettel is also just beloved because you were busy bashing Alonso back when he was in the "wrong" team, beating the "real" favorite in the "right" team.

It’s quite simple—Alonso won me over through his driving.
And since you aren't exactly a newcomer to this forum, you might have noticed I started praising Alonso back when "Fernando Alonso at Ferrari" was nothing more than an SF rumor. Everything here is easily verifiable.

Six years ago, I said the exact same thing about Lewis Hamilton, comparing him to Jacques Villeneuve. Again—easily verifiable on this forum.

And what happened? Just like Alonso, Lewis Hamilton won me over.
It wasn't a case of some "average driver jumping into a top-tier team."
And once more, I began praising Hamilton long before there was any actual chance of him joining Ferrari. All easily checkable right here.

Alonso won me over.
Hamilton won me over.
Did Vettel win me over? No.

Your memory is pretty terrible... seriously awful🤣🤣🤣

As far as I know, Alonso was definitely driving for Ferrari on October 13, 2011, so this isn't some SF story😁

Jason Campbell70 said:Like I said, Vettel becomes the youngest points scorer—big deal.
Vettel manages to become the youngest F1 winner in history—pure luck.
Vettel becomes the youngest champion in F1 history—all thanks to Vitali Petrov.
Vettel defends his title the next year in such a dominant way that people compare him to Prost, Schumacher, or Senna—is that just because of having the best car?

So what the hell does Vettel have to do to get all you random forum trolls to stop posting stuff like "Vettel isn't a real racer"? 🙄

Man, I love you😍

stormybadger8 said:How on earth can you even compare Jean-Éric Vergne to Mark Webber when you actually look at the results? 🙄
Are you trolling me or are you just straight-up blind? 🙄

In what single category is Vergne even remotely close? 🙄

Do you even grasp that in the entire history of Formula 1, there are only 104 drivers who have ever won a race?
And there are tons of them on the grid right now... we've got 9 winners currently, mostly because the competition has been absolutely brutal the last few seasons—5 World Champions plus 4 other guys with career wins...
And get this—Webber has more career wins than seven freaking World Champions combined!
But sure, let's go with your logic—Vergne is on Webber's level. 😵

Alright, slow down there, buddy. I never once said I was putting him in the same league as Vergne—quite the opposite, actually, I said some really positive things about him. Plus, if you actually read the part in parentheses, you'd see Vergne was just mentioned by accident!

If you actually read with any comprehension, you’d realize I value Webber way more than his zero World F1 Championships—which is the only thing you and your pal seem obsessed with. And I had to slash that "F1" mention just so you wouldn't latch onto it and start listing a bunch of categories that aren't even relevant here.

Look, statistics aren't everything, period. There's going to come a time when Vettel isn't driving the best car on the grid, and if he proves he can still pull off massive things in a mediocre machine, I'll be the first one to tip my hat and admit he's a legend with insane potential. But until then? I'm not convinced. For ME, Alonso is the better driver—and honestly, most fans would agree.

stormybadger8 said:Your memory is a bit short, isn't it? And that was incredibly brief.🤣🤣🤣

As far as I recall, Alonso was definitely driving for Ferrari back on October 13, 2011. There wasn't any of that SF drama going on then, was there? 😁

Especially regarding SF, things just weren't the same after that:
I can't say I agree with what shadowstag10 mentioned there. Was it really that simple? To me, it feels like we're missing the bigger picture. Is anyone else feeling this way?

Alonso. I'm not a fan.Whatever the case may be, I can't exactly say that anyone stayed cool-headed about it. I hate it.I don't particularly care for him, but I have immense respect for what he brings to the track.
And yeah, Alonso has undergone a radical transformation. For the better.

Yeah, he used to complain about Renault back in the day.
Did you hear him complaining about Ferrari's account when his car was over a second slower than the rest?

I don't particularly like Sebastian Vettel, nor do I dislike him... but regardless of my feelings, I can't help but respect what he does out there on the track.
Even Sebastian Vettel is undergoing a radical transformation. We used to hear stories about how they’d swap out his damaged front wing for a perfectly good one taken straight from Mark Webber's car. Now this season, we're hearing him whining over the team radio to "get Mark off the track." Is this really happening?

Fresh eyes.Hey, friend.
Healthy eyes.

stormybadger8 said:Just a thousand years of me rambling on and on. The sheer number of Sebastian Vettel fans out there... it's massive. That fact stays the same.

😂

shadowstag10 said:If you actually read with some comprehension, you'd realize I value Mark Webber way more than just pointing out he has 0 world Formula 1 championships. Which is what you and your buddy keep obsessing over. And I had to fix that "F1" typo just in case you try to pivot to listing a bunch of other categories we aren't even talking about.

So yeah, stats aren't everything. There will come a day when Vettel doesn't have the best car on the grid, and if he proves he can still pull off greatness, I’ll be the first one to tip my hat and admit he’s got massive potential. Until then, I'm not convinced. For ME, Alonso is the better driver, and most fans agree.

And so, championship count is the only metric where Vettel beats Alonso...
Is that really the only thing that matters?

When did anyone ever say titles were the sole deciding factor?🤷
Basically, he's the main point in this argument, but not the only one... In fact, as far as I know, Vettel beats Alonso in pretty much every other category—even in overtakes or positions gained/lost from the grid start, regardless of how delusional people think otherwise... let alone wins, podiums, PP, FL, and so on.

The truth is, most fans hold the opinion that Alonso is the best for a very simple reason, and it has nothing to do with his driving or anything else...
It’s because Alonso drove for Renault, Ferrari, and McLaren (okay, maybe McLaren fans don't remember him in the best light 😬, but there's probably still a faction of them out there)
When you add that up, that's practically 75% of all fans. So why the surprise that everyone thinks he's the best?

But honestly, that also speaks volumes about his massive success... He's the guy who drove for the top teams and consistently had the best cars globally...
That wasn't Hamilton, Kimi, or Vettel—it was Alonso.

And what's the deal with the statistics anyway?
Group 1... Our champions are Vettel, Alonso, Kimi, Hamilton, and Button.
Group 2... Our winners are Massa, Mark Webber, Rosberg, and Maldonado.
Sure, maybe Button isn't quite on the level of those four, but he's not that far off either, and he definitely sits at the top of Group 2.
In Group 2, you've got the Maldonado anomaly thanks to mostly Pirelli and pure luck, though he's only been around for a few seasons, so he still has time to prove himself.
As for Rosberg, hmm, he's got plenty of races under his belt and didn't exactly blow anyone away, but the fact is he didn't have the tools, and he might still show something.

Regardless, Mark Webber is the peak of Group 2, right alongside Massa before the Fed era.
Massa just hasn't been the same guy since then... He shows flashes of what he used to be, but rarely.

Jason Campbell70 said:Did you hear him whining about Ferrari when his car was over a second slower than everyone else?

Exactly.☕
It’s not like the old days where he’d just straight-up trash his own team. Now it’s more like, "My guys are useless and I'm out here fighting way more capable drivers and teams on my own."
Basically, the endings of these messages are all pretty much the same.

Honestly, it’s probably better without all the comments anyway 😁
Nice recap of Canadian GP...

I didn't even realize Vergne actually ended up with more points than Perez 😲
You'd think Perez screwed up by joining McLaren... but then you remember Hulkenberg is sitting in his old seat 😢

stormybadger8 said:Absolutely.☕
It’s not like the old days where he’d just openly tear into his own team. Now, it’s more like, "My guys aren't doing anything, and I'm stuck out here fighting against much better drivers and teams..."
The endings of these messages are more or less all the same.

He isn't exactly trashing his own team... but he’s certainly admitting they aren't the fastest on the grid.
More or less the same thing.

All right. Good.

Basically, he’s pretty much constantly telling his own people they’re incompetent... he was actually being quite a jerk all through last year... there were supposedly some arguments too, though who knows how much truth there is to that.
Not that he was entirely wrong, though...

But regardless of everything, damn it, I see him as a driver who blew two massive advantages and let Sebastian Vettel snatch the title away.

Look, if you draw a parallel with the much-hated Nico Rosberg, the guy's luck totally shifted and the title fell right into his lap, but you still should have won it regardless.
And hell, he won it—no matter how it happened or under what circumstances.

Fernando Alonso fought hard, but man, his luck ran out in 2010 and 2012 and he ended up missing out again.
Okay, maybe he shouldn't have even had those chances, but at the end of the day, he was the prey that got caught... basically, he's the one who lost the title.

It's the same deal with Sebastian Vettel now. Regardless of whether Red Bull wasn't the absolute best package ever and how much of that advantage came from other people's mistakes (just like with Alonso last year), I’m still going to say Sebastian Vettel lost the championship if he doesn't take it this season. I'm not going to ramble on about some trash, ultra-dominant Lotus, Ferrari, Mercedes, or whoever else might show up later in the season.

Honestly, I was just thinking about how much everyone used to mess with me when I insisted that Sebastian Vettel was the best driver, that he’d eventually win regularly and hit podiums consistently, and that he had enough potential to be a world champion one day... maybe even a multiple champion.😁
And all of that was before Monza 2008.😍

I was just remembering how mean everyone was, refusing to let me shout it from the rooftops every single day.🙂 🤣
So fine, I'll be the bigger person and let those of you rooting for the underdog teams and drivers who might prove themselves later claim they're the best.😁

Just don't you dare come for Sebastian Vettel, Mark Webber, or the rest of the crew.😳
Putting others down isn't going to make Fernando Alonso any more valuable.
He's already got plenty of value and proves it on the track, but you fans just drag him down by belittling everyone else, which then just encourages other fans to start doing the same to him... and the cycle continues forever.
And honestly, it's all just stupid bickering without much sense or logic behind it.

We all know the stats anyway, and our internal gut feeling about who’s better or worse stays the same; it's hard for someone else's opinion or even results that prove otherwise to change it.

steelmaker83 said:It’s gotta include a Fifth Columnist, too. 😬

It’s good, man. It really is. 😁

Roger Wright94 said:What kind of meter was used for this measurement?

Is there any sport on this planet that’s more exact or measurable? Honestly, read it again—carefully this time. I think I was being perfectly clear. ☕

Richard Vaughn62 said:🤣
Corporate shills on their machines... swifttiger75 grabbed everything like a shark during that massive purge Tomislav Karamarko ran. 😁

No fancy gear, just keeping it natural. I’m right there with you, my friend—just me and you out on the grass.
Hey, Mazgun... 😁

Let’s get this party started. I’m actually really digging this debate—even though I wasn't glued to my desk today, I just power-read through the last three pages.

Jason Campbell70 said:I find myself wondering... how is it that even after Sebastian Vettel’s third consecutive championship title, after who knows how many broken records, and following yet another display of absolute dominance in both qualifying and the race itself... how is it that people still find themselves dragging out these debates regarding whether all of Sebastian Vettel’s successes are truly deserved?
How could it be that after the last race (which was held on completely neutral ground) the crowd chose to boo Sebastian Vettel? And specifically him... while they greeted the other two drivers with thunderous ovations?
How can it be that Sebastian Vettel still maintains such a meager following compared to the other drivers? Even here on this forum.
How? He is, by any measure, the best, the record-breaker, the overwhelmingly dominant force.

It is quite evident that there is something else at play here...

Who exactly is questioning if Sebastian Vettel deserves his wins? It is simply the fans of other drivers, those who realize they will never touch a championship because they cannot overcome the German.
And why the booing of Sebastian Vettel? If you look at the previous answer, the reason becomes clear.
Why isn't Sebastian Vettel popular? Because he wins constantly, and frankly, it has become tedious. Wouldn't it be nice if he just let someone else have a single title for once?

Yes, there really is "something" else. Most likely, the fans of Fernando Alonso simply cannot wrap their heads around it, because how can anyone dare to consistently defeat what they consider to be the "greatest" driver?

Your arguments don't hold water. They are parched for some sort of logical reasoning.

swifttiger75 said:Is there any sport on this planet that is more exact or measurable than this?

It seems to me that some people in this forum attempt to gauge a driver's true talent by nothing more than mere guesswork and superficial whimsy.

graniteharbor502 said:Why is everyone hating on Sebastian Vettel? Just read the last reply.
People aren't feeling him because he wins all the time—it’s getting old... It would be nice if he just let someone else take a win for once.
Yeah, there's definitely something there. Most Fernando Alonso fans can't even wrap their heads around it—I mean, how does anyone have the nerve to constantly beat the "greatest" driver?

Absolute madness. Nobody supports him because he's driving for some soda can brand with zero history or tradition. If he moved to Ferrari tomorrow, he'd have an entire army behind him. You've got a tiny group of die-hard fans who actually care about the drivers, while most people just follow the constructors. I've been watching Formula 1 for 25 years now and I just can't get into this Red Bull era despite all the titles... but saying Sebastian Vettel isn't world-class? That's just insane.

Get it through your head—people don't hate him, they hate the car he's in. He's not the problem.

Larry Fox5 said:It’s pure madness. People aren't following him because he’s driving for a brand that lacks any real history or deep-rooted tradition. If he were behind the wheel of a Ferrari tomorrow, wouldn't he suddenly have an entire army of supporters at his back? There is such a small group of true fanatics—those of us who have followed Formula 1 for decades—who actually connect with the driver, whereas the vast majority simply follow the constructor. I have been watching this sport for twenty-five years now, and frankly, I can't even bring myself to care about this Red Bull team despite all those titles they've racked up in recent years; however, to claim that Sebastian Vettel lacks class is nothing short of insanity.

You have to realize that the reason people don't care for him is simply because he’s stuck in the wrong car, not because his talent is lacking.

Well, that seems perfectly clear to me, just as it is perfectly clear to me that he would possess a massive legion of admirers if only he were driving for Ferrari.

From what I can see, this win might actually make them favorites among the McLaren fans.😁
British fans' takes on this whole mess are always the same. It's just constant stuff like, "Ferrari's crew is totally unhinged," or "those die-hard Ferrari fanatics have lost it," and "these people don't know the first thing about Formula 1." Typical.🤣

I was literally rolling on the floor when I read those comments they posted on Sky Sports.😁

stormybadger8 said:How on earth can you compare Jean-Éric Vergne to Mark Webber when you look at actual results? 🙄
Are you trolling me here, or are you just willfully ignoring reality? 🙄

Helloooo!!!
Mark Webber
9 wins
36 podiums
11 Pole positions
15 fastest laps
917.5 career points

Jean-Éric Vergne
0 wins
0 podiums
0 Pole positions
0 fastest laps
29 career points

In which single one of those categories is Vergne even remotely close? 🙄

Do you realize that in the entire history of Formula 1, there are only 104 drivers who have ever won a race?
And looking at the current grid, there are plenty of them—we actually have nine right now because the competition has been so intense over the last few seasons... five World Champions plus four other drivers with at least one career win...
And get this: Webber has more career wins than seven different World Champions!
But no, let's just rank Vergne alongside him. 😵

Whoopsie! 🙂 I didn't notice that massive bold text. 🙂

There you go.
(Though you're shouting at the wrong person, since they weren't actually making a direct comparison, but fine. 😬🤣)

Just imagine how he feels when that mummy starts attacking him, claiming he’s incompetent, or "guilty," or accusing him of being "red" in his head.
For God's sake, he took a driver from a backmarker team and turned him into a top-tier racer.
We talked about this all last year—how once that driver finally hit the track at places like Pocono and started showing some real grit in duels, it was clear he had become much tougher alongside Mark.

Then, instead of being appreciated, he gets treated ungratefully, facing that absolute garbage at the start of the season where they showed total disrespect not just to him, but to the entire team.

And then people wonder why everyone is turning on him. 😁 Come on. 😁