2013 Canadian GP - Montreal (June 9)

Roger Wright94 said:Happiness and satisfaction are mere emotions, rather than objective criteria. Personally, at least within the realm of Formula 1, I find myself entirely unable to influence the external events that serve as the raw input for those feelings.

If five hundred thousand people are telling you that results—specifically regarding the standings on the leaderboard—are not the sole and absolute metric of a driver's quality, then fine; if that is how you choose to view the world, I simply give up.

Back in '96 and '97, Michael Schumacher secured three wins and five victories during an era when the Ferrari was significantly inferior to the Williams. During those years, I felt immensely happy, satisfied, and deeply convinced that Ferrari was on the path to glory and that Schumacher was a superior driver to both Damon Hill and Villeneuve. Fast forward to 2006, when the title was lost to Fernando Alonso, I found myself feeling and thinking in much the same way.
I didn't feel even a shred of regret over that lost championship compared to the profound sense of loss I felt when Schumacher decided to retire.

No, they aren't. However, if I am truly forced to compare two drivers who competed during the same era, then in the absence of any other definitive metrics, I have no choice but to rely upon the results. When one examines the data, Schumi emerges as the better driver when measured against Hill and Villeneuve. The man secured seven championships, a fact that no one has ever dared to question.
As for how much more inferior the Ferrari is compared to Red Bull, I couldn't tell you. What I do know is that the Ferrari being driven by Fernando Alonso is a far more competitive machine than many of you seem willing to admit. I would go as far as to suggest it is currently the fastest car under race conditions. Furthermore, Sebastian Vettel has held the top spot in the standings for four years now; surely, one cannot dismiss that as mere coincidence? It is my firm belief that he is the superior driver to Fernando Alonso, though until Alonso manages to best him in a direct fight for the championship, my stance will remain unchanged.

stormybadger8 said:Alright, so by what standard are you suddenly the arbiter of truth when you claim Fernando Alonso is a better driver than Sebastian Vettel? What if someone else thinks Vettel's actually the superior one—are they just fundamentally wrong?
And what, is your gut feeling some kind of divine gospel where everyone else is just tripping?

As far as I’m concerned, Vettel has been the better driver compared to Alonso since back in 2008, and hey, if you want to call me "ultra-unobjective" for that, fine—at least we're clear on where I stand. 😁
But honestly, screw my "unobjectivity," because those claims actually have plenty of hard results to back them up season after season...
On the flip side, all that intense "objectivity" from Alonso fans doesn't really have anything to lean on besides vibes and feelings...

Oh please, why don't you go ahead and make a comparison against Sergio Perez? I am absolutely dying to find out if Vettel was better than him too. 😂
Seriously, let's just strip away every single outside factor except for raw results and compare them that way.

Why don't you run a comparison between Nick Heidfeld and Vettel during Vettel's rookie year?
Does that mean Heidfeld was somehow incomparably better than Vettel that season?

shadowstag10 said:Alright, you're being objective here, and I suppose you have a point—Bill Russell is indeed better than Jordan, so please accept my apologies.

I am somewhat perplexed as to how Bill Russell and Jordan relate to the discussion regarding Sebastian Vettel and Fernando Alonso; there really is no need for such apologies, is there? I shall attempt to weigh the arguments concerning those latter two drivers with the objectivity they deserve.

shadowstag10 said:Why don't you just put together a massive spreadsheet comparing him to Sergio Perez? I am truly burning with anticipation to find out if Vettel was actually superior to him. 😂
I mean, let us simply disregard every single external factor and focus solely on the raw results to conduct such an evaluation.

Would you perhaps go as far as to compare Nick Heidfeld against Vettel during Vettel's debut season?
Does that imply that Heidfeld was somehow an incomparably better driver during that specific year?

Perhaps we could strive to be a bit more constructive and instead address the actual question: in what specific ways is Fernando Alonso a better driver than Vettel?

Look, he’s definitely slower on that opening lap—straight up lacks that raw first-lap burst—but on the flip side, his race craft is just on another level. He reads the situation better, his long-run pace is killer, and if you ask me, he’s way sharper when it comes to actually making a move.

In what specific way is Vettel actually better? Because I’m clearly missing something here.

shadowstag10 said:He’s certainly slower when it comes to that single qualifying lap, but on the flip side, he excels at reading the race, maintaining a steady pace during the Grand Prix, and if I may be so bold, I’d say his overtaking is superior as well.

In what specific ways is Sebastian Vettel actually better, because I find myself struggling to see the evidence?

Look at those championship titles listed in the history books... Won through sheer situational awareness, consistent race tempo, and—believe it or not—superiority in overtaking maneuvers.

steelmaker83 said:there’s gotta be some hardline extremists in there too😬>

🤣

Sectarianists glued to their screens... templars have grabbed everything just like how Jaca did when Karamarko was running his purge 😁>

Man, you’re really just circling back to the results again? If you’re gonna be this stubborn and shut down anyone else's perspective, what’s even the point of us talking?

Fine, then hit me with an answer: why on earth would anyone say Nick Heidfeld was better than Sebastian Vettel during those two seasons? When you look at race pace—hell, even his overtaking—he was consistently finishing ahead of him.

Look, I’ve been answering every single one of your questions, so do me a favor and skip the counter-questions.

shadowstag10 said:You keep circling back to the race results, but if you intend to be this obstinate and refuse to entertain any perspective other than your own, what is really the point of us even having this discussion?

Then perhaps you might enlighten me as to why Nick Heidfeld wasn't actually the superior driver compared to Sebastian Vettel during those two seasons, given that in terms of race pace and even overtakes, he was consistently finishing ahead of him?

I have made a concerted effort to answer every single one of your inquiries, so I must ask that you refrain from meeting my thoughts with such counter-questions.

Nick Heidfeld hasn't secured a single victory, let alone a championship title, which makes your comparison rather absurd if we are being honest. However, if you truly insist on making that specific comparison, Sebastian Vettel was the more successful driver over three seasons. Therefore, even against him, he maintains a positive score.

graniteharbor502 said:Nick Heidfeld doesn't have a single win—let alone a championship title—so that comparison of yours is honestly pretty laughable. But hey, if you really want to play it that way, Sebastian Vettel was a more successful driver than Heidfeld in three specific seasons. So, technically, he’s got the better head-to-head score against him.

Did I ask about two seasons or three?

So, what you're saying is that for the first two seasons, it's crystal clear Heidfeld was better, but then—poof!—suddenly Vettel becomes some kind of superhero in the third season and flips the script thanks to these incredible "god-tier" skills he just happened to develop out of nowhere? Give me a break.

I'm out. There's no point arguing with you when you refuse to accept that stats aren't the only thing that matters, so don't hold your breath waiting for a reply.

It is equally absurd to attempt to measure driver skill justby looking at raw results. Perhaps van der garda possesses the most natural talent among the group, but he was simply stuck in an uncompetitive car.🙂

shadowstag10 said:Wait, did I ask if it was during the second or third season?

So, I suppose in the first two seasons it is perfectly obvious that Nick Heidfeld holds the edge, yet suddenly, by the third season, Sebastian Vettel undergoes this magical transformation into a superhuman being, reversing everything in his favor solely due to some incredible abilities that just happened to manifest out of thin air after the previous years?

I am simply stepping away from this discussion now, as it seems impossible to convince you that results aren't the only metric that matters, so please do not expect any further reply from me.

Oh, come now. It is quite evident that you have run out of arguments and are retreating instead. If one intends to compare two drivers, should they not do so across their entire shared tenure rather than cherry-picking only the specific window that suits their narrative? Nick Heidfeld was arguably superior to Sebastian Vettel in 2007, a year in which Vettel only participated in eight races. He was better over the course of a full season in 2008, only to be left far behind during 2009, 2010, and 2011.
And there is another interesting detail to consider:

To this point, Sebastian Vettel has never actually lost an intra-team battle. One certainly cannot say the same regarding Fernando Alonso.

So, give me a rundown of all those world champions he actually had to go toe-to-toe with as a teammate.

I mean, he was up against a pretty mid-tier Mark Webber—sorry, not to be harsh—if you really dig into Webber's stats, and don't even get me started on his days running with the guys at AlphaTauri.

shadowstag10 said:So let's just ignore all the other variables and compare them strictly by the results.

There's nothing to debate here—the results speak for themselves...
And based on those numbers, Vettel is clearly the best driver on the grid right now... no competition whatsoever.
In his relatively short career, I honestly don't think anyone has ever been better during their first five seasons.🤷

What actually interests me is that whole "Ferrari" or "Alonso" metric—whatever you want to call it—suggesting Alonso is somehow the greatest of all champions, past, present, and future.🤷
That’s a mystery I can't wrap my head around. Results? Those are obvious. 3 is more than 0, and 3 is even more than 2. It's basic math, people.

shadowstag10 said:Why not just compare Nick Heidfeld vs Vettel during that Vettel-esque debut season?
Does that mean Heidfeld was incomparably better than Vettel that year?

Vettel had a win in his first full season. Heidfeld didn't have one at all, despite having a car that year capable of podiums and wins.
Vettel scored nine times as many points as his teammate, whereas Heidfeld actually trailed his own teammate...
In the races he finished, Vettel scored points 9 times and missed out only 3 times (not counting DNFs, because I can't remember if it was his fault or a mechanical failure). Meanwhile, his teammate only scored points twice, even though he had fewer DNFs than Vettel...
Heidfeld, on the other hand, finished outside the points at least 6 or 7 times, and that was in a much better and more reliable car...
That's just my quick take off the top of my head...

My overall impression is that Vettel was simply better than Heidfeld that season.
Look, I'm not saying Heidfeld was incomparably better, but even if we look at the points, Vettel was ahead—maybe by 25-30 points. Let's be generous and say he was double, though it was probably closer to a third. A thousand years of rambling from the Vettel fan army won't change that fact.

It's just like how nobody can argue with the fact that Heidfeld and Alonso didn't score a single point in their first race, or even their first full season...
While Vettel didn't just score points in his first race, he actually grabbed a win in his first full season.

shadowstag10 said:Why don't you just list all those world champions he actually had to face as a teammate?

If we are looking strictly at Mark Webber's results, one might argue he was merely an average teammate—forgive me, sukki—but let us not even begin to discuss the caliber of drivers he shared a garage with during his time at AlphaTauri.

If my memory serves me correctly, Alonso was trailing behind Jarno Trulli back in 2004, right around the time Trulli was bumped from Renault.
Furthermore, calling Webber an average driver simply doesn't hold water; if he were truly mediocre, there is no way he would have ever secured a seat at Red Bull Racing.
I find myself wondering, what more could Vettel possibly have achieved to satisfy your perception of his talent? What is the expectation here? Should he attempt to start every single race from the pit lane? The man did exactly what was required to secure the championship, and he managed to do it three times in a row. So, I must pose this question to you: in the last three years, could he have possibly earned more than he already has? After all, how can one possibly perform better than finishing in first place?

graniteharbor502 said:From what I can recall, Alonso was sitting right behind Jarno Trulli back in 2004, right when Trulli got kicked out of Renault.
Look, Mark Webber isn't some mediocre driver. If he were, there's no way he would've been sitting in a Red Bull seat.
I honestly don't get what else Vettel needs to pull off for you to realize what kind of driver we're talking about here. What’s the magic move—should he start every race from the pits? The guy did everything there was to do to bag a championship. And he did it three times in a row, for crying out loud. So now I'm asking you, could he have won more in the last three years than he actually did? How do you get better than first place?

So, is the new benchmark for being a "Top driver" just driving for Red Bull now? Does having zero world titles suddenly mean nothing?

Like stormybadger8 would say—three is more than two, which I guess makes it more than zero, apparently, which puts him in the same league as Jean-Éric Vergne and all those other mid-tier guys (randomly picked Vergne, by the way).

By your logic, Mark Webber is just an average driver, nothing more.

Personally, I respect Webber enough to consider him top-tier, but damn, so suddenly the criteria for greatness doesn't include world championships anymore?

And seriously, when did I ever claim Vettel wasn't a top driver? The only thing nobody can do is prove someone is better than Alonso using actual stats.

Alright, all jokes aside, cheers for the "constructive" debate, but I'm out of time for this.

shadowstag10 said:Go ahead, list all those world champions he actually had as teammates.

He raced against a pretty average Mark Webber (sorry, not sorry) if you look at Webber's results, and don't even get me started on his guys at AlphaTauri.

He’s definitely got more than Alonso.🤣
Here are the titles his teammates snagged before he ever had to face them...
It's obvious you're clueless... honestly, his old AlphaTauri crew probably has more hardware than Alonso and all his former teammates combined.😬 🤣

1. Nick Heidfeld
German formula Ford 1600 - 1994
German formula Ford 1800 - 1995
German formula Three Championship - 1997
formula 3000 - 1999

2. Vitantonio Liuzzi
formula 3000 - 2004

3. Scott Speed
formula Renault 2000 Eurocup 2004
formula Renault 2000 Germany 2004

4. Sébastien Bourdais
French formula Three - 1999
formula 3000 - 2002
IndyCar Series - 2004
IndyCar Series - 2005
IndyCar Series - 2006
IndyCar Series - 2007

So yeah, Vettel's teammates have 13 titles between them, including 7 world championships.😁
Now feel free to list any big titles won by Alonso's teammates...

shadowstag10 said:So, does being a Top driver now just mean driving for Red Bull Racing, regardless of whether they actually hold a World Championship title?

If we follow what stormybadger8 would likely argue—that three is greater than two, which logically implies it is also greater than zero—then it seems he is being grouped right alongside Jean-Éric Vergne and that whole collection of mediocre drivers (though I suppose I chose Vergne by chance)

By that same logic, Mark Webber is merely an average driver, nothing more.

Personally, I hold Webber in high regard and consider him a top-tier talent, yet somehow, suddenly, the criteria of winning a World Championship no longer applies when discussing him?

And can anyone truly point to a moment where I claimed Sebastian Vettel wasn't a top driver? The only thing no one can do is prove, using actual statistics, that he is superior to Fernando Alonso.

On a serious note, my regards to you all; thank you for the constructive debate, but I simply have no more time for this.

A "Top driver"? Who exactly used that term? I merely stated he isn't an average driver; in my view, he is an exceptionally good driver. However, as you pointed out yourself, he lacks that championship title required to reach the absolute pinnacle.
It is much like how one can never definitively prove whether Fernando Alonso is better than Sebastian Vettel.

shadowstag10 said:So now the standard for being a top driver is just driving for Red Bull Racing? Does having zero World Championships not count anymore?

As stormybadger8 would put it, 3 is more than 2, which I guess makes it more than 0—putting him right in the same league as Vergne and the rest of the also-rans (and yeah, I chose Vergne by accident)

By your logic, Mark Webber is just an average driver. Period.

Personally, I respect Webber enough to call him a top driver, but damn, so suddenly his lack of titles means he doesn't meet the criteria?

And when did I ever say Sebastian Vettel wasn't a top driver? The only thing nobody can do is prove he's better than Alonso using actual stats.

Alright, serious note from me: thanks for the "constructive" debate, but I'm out of time.

How on earth does Vergne even compare to Webber when you look at the results? 🙄
Are you trolling or just completely blind? 🙄

Unknown!!!
Mark Webber
9 wins
36 podiums
11 Pole position
15 fastest laps
917.5 career points

Jean-Éric Vergne
0 wins
0 podiums
0 Pole position
0 fastest laps
29 career points

In which one of those categories is Vergne even remotely close?🙄

Do you realize that in the entire history of Formula 1, there are only 104 drivers who have actually won a race?
And there are tons of them on the grid right now... we've got 9 of them because the competition has been insane lately... 5 World Champions plus 4 other drivers with at least one win under their belt...
And get this: Webber has more wins than seven different World Champions!
But sure, let's rank Webber in the same tier as Vergne. 😵

graniteharbor502 said:Here is another interesting bit of data:

Sebastian Vettel hasn't lost an intra-team battle yet. You can't say the same for Alonso.

Strong point.
Let’s talk about statistics and objective numbers, then. We're looking at a 109-109 score against a driver who finished that season in second place, only to become the champion the following year.

True, but it looks different when you consider all those powerhouse championship teams Vettel had behind him compared to his teammates. 😍