Overrated athletes?

Jason Fisher78 said:The whole thing started with Rodman trying to force Bird out, and then Isiah Thomas kept the momentum going. But honestly, that might be total nonsense. It probably isn't even true. Look, physically speaking, Larry Bird wasn't exactly built like the elite athletes in this league, yet he still held his own against them—he was right there in the mix with the absolute best. I mean, just imagine if he actually had that kind of explosive strength and verticality? Maybe he’d be the undisputed GOAT if he'd been born with that physical profile.

Or maybe he’d just be another media darling? Maybe Slavko would be obsessing over him? Maybe Wesley Snipes would be playing him in a biopic? Or maybe you're just sitting here right now, trying to tear him down? Who knows, maybe he's just lost in the woods somewhere.

So many questions, yet so few actual answers...

I mean, if you look at how ESPN basically hand-waved Jordan's role in that 1982 NCAA Championship win, it’s pretty obvious what happened. It was just that specific era where Jordan was sitting on his media throne, so I guess everything he ever did had to be framed as legendary. The reality is, he didn't single-handedly carry them to that title like everyone claims. He wasn't even playing his best ball during those Final Fours, and honestly, he wasn't even one of the all-time greats in college. They just gave him all the credit to build the myth. Back in '82, James Worthy was actually the star at North Carolina. He made the All-American team, whereas Jordan didn't even make his conference's first team. Worthy was the guy leading the charge in scoring all season, through the Final Four, and especially in that championship game where he dropped 28 points. He was the Final Four MVP and the top player in the Eastern Conference. Plus, he's the one who stripped the ball from Georgetown's Fred Brown in the closing moments to seal that 63-62 win. Sure, Jordan hit the shot that put them up, but it wasn't some buzzer-beater; it was with 15 seconds left. And if Worthy hadn't shut down Brown—kind of like how Vrankovic blocked that monter in the EuroLeague Panathinaikos vs. Barcelona game in Paris back in '96 where it ended 67-66—the score probably would've swung the other way, maybe 62-64.

Anyway, nobody was talking about Worthy; the narrative was always that Jordan led the team to glory. Led them! right? After that, Worthy moved on to the NBA while Jordan stayed behind in the NCAA. How many titles did Jordan grab without Worthy? Zero. How many times did he even make a Final Four? Zero. And did Worthy make the Final Four without Jordan? Yeah, back in '81.

If that isn't massive exaggeration, I don't know what is. ☕

frozentiger6 said:When you talk about Jordan, you can't ignore those air-pumped Nike Air sneakers 🙏 🙏 🙏

That's just classic American marketing... at the end of the day, they know how to sell anyone anything, even if it's complete garbage.

Yeah, Reebok ran the exact same game... I had a pair of Jordan's models without the pump, maybe his second or third release, and damn, those shoes were solid. I had them for five years, easy, and even after three and a half years of pounding the concrete courts, they were still holding up fine.🤣

Back when they were just kids, Jordan's brother was actually the better player☕

It honestly baffles me how the snow hasn't managed to land one more embarrassing stain on Jordan's reputation by pointing out he couldn't even swim to save his life... just saying...☕

Jesus, what did I just read? 🤦

The strongest argument they’ve got is "Jordan got 50 because he dunked from the free-throw line, but he actually stepped over the line." If you step over the line, the dunk doesn't count. It’s like long jump—you step over, it's a foul. My god.
Huge respect to Magic and Bird (Magic is my all-time favorite player, and I've been a Celtics fan since I can remember), but MJ is one of those rare few you can say with absolute certainty was the greatest ever in his sport (alongside guys like Bjorndalen, Janica, Stenmark, Balić, and EL Geruž).

Overrated: Joe Johnson (the guy walked into a max contract 🤦), Kobe, Roddick, Čilić 🙂, Tiger Woods, Schumacher, Hamilton, Ratko Kurčić Dim

If we’re going strictly by your logic, we're talking about American athletes—mostly basketball players 🤣

neonfalcon16 said:if we’re going by your logic, we're mostly talking about American athletes, specifically basketball players 🤣

Look, if you follow basketball, you're gonna pull examples from basketball. If you're a tennis fan, you use tennis. It's simple. If my examples don't sit right with you, then go ahead—throw out one of your own.

Eli Manning

Ugh, I’m kind of with Jason Fisher78 on this one. Look, I love MJ—he’s hands down my favorite athlete ever. And honestly? I don't think he's overrated when people call him the GOAT. He just is. But the way the media manufactured his persona? That's total nonsense, and everyone just buys into it. They treat Michael Jordan like some infallible basketball deity. They spend all their time hunting for "the next big thing" and other garbage. He was a world-class player during the NBA's golden era—plus that massive marketing boom—and he had an insanely talented roster around him. You win all those rings, and suddenly you've got an icon/god/myth that nobody is allowed to criticize.

Long story short: MJ is the best to ever do it in my book, so he isn't overrated in terms of talent, but he *is* a legend cooked up by the American media that half the country swallows whole. Basketball is the ultimate team sport, and that 90s Bulls squad was a perfectly balanced machine where everyone knew exactly what they had to do. Jordan's role was the most vital, but because of that, we ended up worshipping a god. It’s honestly questionable how his career would have even played out on any other team.

placidfalcon4 said:Honestly, I’m somewhat on the same page as Jason Fisher78. Look, I love MJ. He’s my favorite athlete of all time, and I don’t think he’s overrated when people claim he’s the greatest basketball player to ever play. He simply was. But what the media has manufactured around him is something else entirely, and everyone just buys into it. People look at Michael Jordan as this infallible basketball deity. They spend all their time hunting for his successor and other nonsense like that. He was an elite player during the NBA's golden era—which coincided with a massive marketing boom—and he happened to have an incredibly well-balanced roster. He won everything there was to win, and in the process, you end up with an idol, a god, and an icon that's almost impossible to hold to a human standard.

To wrap it up, MJ is the best to ever do it in my eyes, and I don't think he's overrated in terms of talent. However, he is also a myth crafted by the American media that a huge portion of the population falls for. Basketball is arguably the ultimate team sport, and that 90s Bulls squad was a phenomenally balanced unit where everyone understood their role perfectly. Jordan’s role was obviously the most critical, and because of that, we got a god. It really makes you wonder how that career would have played out on any other team.

You hit the nail on the head.🙏

dustypanther6 said:My best point is probably this: "Michael Jordan got 50 because he basically stepped over the line during his dunk instead of actually doing it from behind it." If you step over the line, the dunk doesn't count—kind of like a foul in long jump where you just bust. For God's sake.

I mean, why are you even surprised? To get a 50, the dunk really should have been entirely behind the free-throw line since it wasn't exactly revolutionary. The first guy to pull it off was Michael Jordan, but he had about half a sneaker in front of the line. Then you've got Scottie Pippen back in 1990 doing the same thing, but since he barely touched the line, he only got a 45🙄. Honestly, I think Scottie Pippen's dunk was actually the first legitimate one from the charity stripe. Plus, Dominique Wilkins getting 45 for his last dunk felt totally unearned, especially since he was leading by two points before that. No, it's not a conspiracy, and no, it's not an exaggeration...☕

If you try to go up against Michael Jordan, you're basically asking for trouble http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOIPlCU5e7I

Look, everyone’s entitled to their own opinion—even if it's totally off base—but I just gotta address this idea that someone in American basketball gets branded solely because they're Black. Honestly? I think American fans and big corporations would sell their souls in a heartbeat if some white guy showed up with even half of Michael Jordan's raw athleticism. Trust me on that one.

Switching gears from hoops for a second—like, why do I feel like Ayrton Senna was hands down better than Michael Schumacher? Back in his prime, Senna had Alain Prost breathing down his neck, and they were even teammates at one point... man, can you imagine the absolute chaos of that? Just constant warfare, day in and day out, during every single practice session. On the flip side, during his peak years, Schumacher mostly had guys like Ayrton Senna or Michael Schumacher backing him up—well, more like his teammates like Ayrton Senna or Michael Schumacher helped steady the ship in their own way. And don't even get me started on how dominant Ferrari was back then. Honestly, whenever people bring up Senna's passing, it really just highlights the fact that we never actually got to see a true Senna-Schumacher showdown.

placidfalcon4 said:Look, to get straight to the point, MJ is the greatest to ever do it in my book, and I don't think he's overrated at all. But at the same time, he's also this massive myth manufactured by the American media that half the population just swallows whole. Basketball is arguably the most team-oriented sport out there, and that 90s Bulls squad was just a freakishly well-balanced unit where everyone knew exactly what they had to do. Jordan’s role was obviously the centerpiece, and because of that, we ended up worshipping him like a god. It honestly makes you wonder how his career would have even played out if he were playing for any other franchise.

Hold up, what's the issue here? What, were we supposed to turn someone like Vernon Maxwell into some kind of marketing icon too? Whether people buy into the hype or not is strictly about the money being made off him. That's just business. Anyone who actually watched Jordan could see for themselves what kind of player he was. If he's the GOAT to you, he's the GOAT to me. Did you fall for the media hype, or did you come to that conclusion on your own? I mean, you aren't some mindless sheep that needs a script to tell you how to feel, right?

And all these "what if" debates—like, what if Blackbird was a Black player, or what if Jordan played for a different team, or what if that one foul wasn't called in '98—they're all just... nonsense. Total garbage.

Regarding the moment we're talking about—do you guys think they're exaggerating a sports personality here, specifically when it comes to Michael Jordan or maybe Steve Kerr?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2BlOTeoZVE
And honestly, that would count as a three-pointer if he were shooting from 22 feet out.

So, to wrap this up (hopefully) regarding Michael Jordan, I’ve got one more stat to throw out there that pretty much dismantles the whole myth about him making his teammates better.

If you look at the nine players who were on the court with him in '93 versus how they played in '94 without him, the numbers speak for themselves. When they were playing alongside him, their field goal percentage was 48.2%. Once he was gone, that number actually bumped up to 48.6%. So, I guess we're supposed to believe Michael Jordan was the one elevating them?

Take two key guys from the Bulls era—Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant during that '92/'93 season with Michael Jordan:
Scottie Pippen: 18.6 PPG, 47.3% FG
Horace Grant: 13.2 PPG, 50.8% FG.

Now, look at Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant in the '93/'94 season without Michael Jordan:
Scottie Pippen: 22.0 PPG, 49.1% FG
Horace Grant: 15.1 PPG, 52.4% FG.

And people still claim he brought out the best in them. Yeah, right! 👍

Honestly, Michael Jordan didn't give a damn about his teammates. He basically admitted himself that his only real priority was being the guy who scores the most. You can't deny his competitiveness, but that was about it.

Besides, he was a total piece of work. I think there was a book—maybe something like *The Man Behind the Mask* or some exposé—that mentioned how he once took Steve Kerr's meal on a plane and told him he didn't deserve to eat. For years, the media painted him as this wholesome family man and a quintessential American role model, but the guy was cheating on his wife and hooking up with anyone in sight, which didn't really start hitting the headlines until later on.

dustypanther6 said:If you follow basketball, you have basketball examples. If you follow tennis, you have tennis examples. Give me one of your own if these don't satisfy you.

It’s entirely possible that this is just a result of aggressive marketing and massive hype from the American media. They build these athletes up until they look like infallible gods—global brands rather than just players. Don't get me wrong; I think they are incredible athletes who are either the absolute best or right at the top of their game. But it’s no coincidence that most of them played during that specific window at the end of the century when the marketing boom exploded. That was a time when old borders were dissolving and the rest of the world started developing a massive appetite for "American" sports.

We see the classic archetypes: Michael Jordan is the god of basketball, Gretzky is the king of the NHL, Jackson baseball is the standard, and Tom Brady is the face of football. Sure, they were the best, but that's where the myth-making begins. They become these untouchable icons that sponsors fight to attach themselves to, leading everyone to hunt for the next "successor." In reality, they were simply athletes with immense talent and skill who also happened to be lucky enough to play for organizations with elite coaching and structure, surrounded by teammates they likely never could have won that many trophies with on their own.

Jason Fisher78 said:To wrap things up (hopefully) regarding Michael Jordan, here is one more statistical tidbit to dismantle the myth that he actually made his teammates better.

We have nine players who played alongside Michael Jordan in '93 and then played without him in '94. When they were playing with him, their field goal percentage was 48.2%. When they played without him, it jumped to 48.6%. So, how exactly was Michael Jordan supposed to be the one pulling the best out of them?

Take two key players from the Bulls era—Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant during the '92/93 season:
Scottie Pippen: 18.6 points, 47.3% FG
Horace Grant: 13.2 points, 50.8% FG.

Now look at Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant in the 93/94 season without Michael Jordan:
Scottie Pippen: 22 points, 49.1% FG
Horace Grant: 15.1 points, 52.4% FG.

And yet, we're told he brought out the best in them. Yeah, right! 👍

Michael Jordan didn't give a damn about his teammates. He said himself that his priority was scoring as many points as possible. You can't deny his sheer competitiveness, but that was it.

Beyond that, he was a pretty terrible human being. I recall reading in a book—I can't remember the title, something along the lines of "The Unmasking of Michael Jordan"—about how he once took Steve Kerr's lunch on a plane and told him he didn't deserve to eat. For years, he was marketed as this wholesome family man and an American role model, when in reality, he was cheating on his wife and behaving badly, stuff that didn't really come to light until much later.

Don't push it 😂

Personally, I always find myself thinking that someone like Jerry Sloan—who never actually picked up an NBA Coach of the Year trophy—is seriously underrated.

To wrap things up: Jordan was actually a total bust of a player, and American journalists just manufactured a legend out of him. 😁