Overrated athletes?

What I find funniest about this thread is how people argue over who’s better than whom without having actually watched either of them play.
Since we can't rely on eye tests here, we end up clinging to statistics, even though numbers don't always tell the full story.

How can anyone claim to know if Senna or Michael Schumacher was superior when they haven't sat through a single one of Senna's races?

Raymond Anderson4 said:I mean, how can anyone even try to argue whether Senna or Michael Schumacher was better when they haven't actually sat down and watched a single race of Senna's?

I guess statistics tell a story, but then again, there are some of us here who have actually watched Senna and Michael Schumacher, and even Michael Jordan, live.

Jason Fisher78 said:To give you an example, look at how ESPN back in '98 listed Jordan as one of the main reasons they won the NCAA championship in 1982. It was right when Jordan was at the absolute peak of his god-like status, so everything he ever did—past or present—had to be framed at that level. But honestly? He didn't decide that title for them like everyone claims. He wasn't even having his best performance in those Final Fours, and truthfully, he wasn't even one of the greatest college players ever. They just credited him heavily to build the myth. Back in '82, James Worthy was actually the star of the University of North Carolina. He made All-American honors, while Jordan didn't even make his conference's All-Conference team. Worthy led the squad in scoring that season, during the Final Four, and in the championship game where he dropped 28 points. He was named Final Four MVP and the best player in the East. In the closing moments, he actually stripped the ball from Georgetown's Fred Brown to seal the 63-62 win (Jordan hit the winning jumper, but not at the buzzer—it was 15 seconds left, and Worthy didn't block Brown like Žan Pregovšek blocked the monter during that EuroLeague final between Panathinaikos and FC Barcelona in Paris back in '96, which ended 67-66. If that had happened, it likely would have been 62-64).

Anyway, nobody was talking about Worthy; they were all busy writing about how Jordan led the team to victory. Led them! After that, Worthy moved on to the NBA, while Jordan stayed behind in college. How many titles did Jordan win without Worthy? Zero. How many times did he even make a Final Four? Zero. Did Worthy make a Final Four without Jordan? Yes, in 1981, and they went all the way to the finals.

If that isn't exaggerating a sports personality, I don't know what is. ☕

Um, Worthy didn't block anything five seconds before the end. Fred Brown accidentally handed him the ball because he was being subbed out, as you can see here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Nnc_itdEc
But that’s beside the point. You're cherry-picking stats again. You forgot to mention that in the '82 season, Michael was just a freshman and Worthy was a senior. Jordan averaged 13.5 points and 4.4 rebounds, while Worthy had 15.6 points and 6.3 rebounds. That's not exactly a massive gap. Plus, Worthy's freshman stats were actually lower than Jordan's, and by his senior year, Jordan had already surpassed Worthy's numbers.
And finally, I don't see why it's such a big deal that ESPN called Jordan one of the most deserving contributors to that title. Not *the* most deserving, just one of them. He scored 16 points in the final (second only to James Worthy) and hit the game-winning shot. What more do you need to justify "one of the most deserving"?

Ryan Vaughn7 said:But honestly, that’s not really the point; you’re just cherry-picking stats to fit your narrative again. You conveniently left out the fact that back in the '82 season, Michael was just a freshman while Worthy was a senior. During that season, Jordan was averaging about 13.5 points and 4.4 rebounds, whereas Worthy was putting up 15.6 points and 6.3 rebounds. It wasn't even that big of a gap. Plus, Worthy actually had worse stats during his freshman year than Jordan did, and then Jordan ended up outperforming Worthy's senior numbers by the time he finished his own senior year.
At the end of the day, I don't get why you're making such a big deal out of ESPN naming Jordan as one of the most deserving players for that title. They didn't say he was *the* most deserving, just one of them. He dropped 16 points in the final—second only to Worthy—and he hit the game-winning shot. I mean, what else do you need to justify being called "one of the most deserving"?

It doesn't really matter who was a freshman or who had better stats at the start versus the end. What matters is how much the media tends to exaggerate a sports personality like Jordan. I'm not saying Worthy isn't a better player overall than Jordan, but I am saying that during that specific season, Worthy was the superior player, he was the one leading the team to victory, and he was the standout in the final, not Jordan.
What's controversial is how Worthy gets totally erased from the entire story. People act like it's all about Jordan being the leader and the guy who decided the game, which just isn't accurate. And ESPN isn't the only ones doing it, either.

Ryan Vaughn7 said:Well, Worthy didn't block anything five seconds before the buzzer. Fred Brown essentially handed him the ball by mistake when he misidentified his teammate, which you can see right here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Nnc_itdEc
But that’s beside the point; you’re just cherry-picking data to suit your narrative. You conveniently ignored the fact that during the '82 season, Michael was a freshman while Worthy was a senior. That year, Jordan averaged 13.5 points and 4.4 rebounds, whereas Worthy put up 15.6 points and 6.3 rebounds—hardly a massive gap. Furthermore, Worthy actually had worse stats than Jordan during his own freshman year, and Jordan eventually surpassed those senior numbers of Worthy's during his own final season.
Ultimately, I don't understand why you're getting so defensive about ESPN naming Jordan as one of the most deserving players for that title. They didn't say he was *the* most deserving, just one of them. He dropped 16 points in the final—second only to Worthy—and nailed the game-winning shot. What more do you need to justify being called "one of the most deserving"?

Look, sorry, but everyone was playing for Jordan, plus the guy clearly can't swim... honestly... just sit this one out.☕
😁

Man, what a total joke... honestly, just pathetic

So, here’s how CBS is promoting that DVD about it—and honestly, they're straight-up lying, even when it comes to Worthy (though I guess I'm just seeing the footage for the first time now that they've slapped it on the disc):

For the first time in a career that’s basically been in a league of its own, I guess you could say Michael Jordan was something else, though I don't know if anyone can really call him "great" without sounding like they're just repeating what everyone else says. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't, but he definitely had that certain something. I guess he just got thrown right into the deep end under all those bright lights. as he steered those Tar Heels to a narrow 63-62 win Just to grab that national championship, I guess. That legendary last-second shot. The Tar Heels managed to pull off the win against the Hoyas, even though they were staring down a future NBA legend like Patrick Ewing. It was one of those legendary matchups that also gave us the 1982 NCAA tournament Most Outstanding Player, the Hall of Famer James Worthy. People mostly remember it for Michael Jordan's buzzer-beater, I guess, but that whole legendary clash between two college heavyweights is also pretty much defined by that one wild pass from Georgetown.People always talk about Michael Jordan's Last second Shot, but honestly, this legendary clash between two college basketball giants is just as famous for that wild, errant pass from Georgetown's Fred Brown during their final possession of the game. So, basically, James Worthy just stepped in there and snatched that pass. ...just to lock in that win for the North Carolina Tar Heels!

I guess if you look back at that legendary showdown between two college basketball giants, people mostly obsess over Michael Jordan's last-second jumper. But honestly, that whole epic battle is just as much about that one wild, errant pass from Georgetown. It’s crazy how one mistake defines a moment, but I suppose that's just how these things go. In the title game against Georgetown in the Superdome, James Worthy was absolutely tearing it up with 28 points, and then Jordan hits that winner to let the Tar Heels sneak past the Hoyas. Just one of those classic pieces of history, I guess.

It clearly says right here that Jordan led the team to victory with a last-second bucket, which just isn't true. It also claims Worthy stepped up and stole the pass, but if you actually watch Ryan Vaughn7's footage, you can see he was just standing there waiting for the ball to be delivered to him.
And that’s basically how a myth gets built, I guess.

Unlike those big-name media houses that spend all their time spinning narratives, some random outlets actually try to write something realistic without trying to build up some massive myth around anyone.

With James Worthy playing as a junior and Michael Jordan just hitting his stride as a freshman, the Tar Heels absolutely tore through the ACC, snagged that top spot in the rankings, and finally pulled off their first NCAA championship in 25 years.

So, back in that title game against Georgetown at the Superdome, Worthy ended up dropping 28 points, and I guess Jordan hit that clutch winning jumper to help the Tar Heels edge out the Hoyas, 62–61. Worthy actually took home the tournament MVP honors, and he basically got handed the win when Georgetown's Fred Brown threw an errant pass in those final seconds to ice it.

I guess if you're looking for some deep dive on historical data or whatever, that link might have something for you, though I can't say I'm sure how much useful stuff is actually in there. It looks like a standard reference page, maybe? Just seems like one of those deep-cut info sites where you go when you're feeling particularly nerdy about certain statistics. Probably worth a look if you've got nothing better to do, I suppose.

Jason Fisher78 said:Roger Federer and Michael Schumacher? Look, Federer is easily the most dominant tennis player we've ever seen, and remember, tennis is an individual sport. It’s the same story with Schumacher. Sure, having a top-tier car and a great crew matters, but the guy could take a total junker like a Benetton and still pull off incredible results. Honestly, I think all of Formula 1 is just one big overrated mess. ☕

Some people argue that because Federer didn't have much real competition, he's actually overrated.🤷

Alex Cook said:He's a total gambler, for crying out loud.

🙏🤣😂

Let me reiterate: the topic here is "exaggerate a sports personality."

Michael Jordan is one of the greatest basketball players to ever live—that is a FACT, and it isn't an exaggeration.

Jordan plays through a 104-degree fever; Jordan dunks over Eaton just because people mocked him for dunking on shorter players; Jordan struggles at the free-throw line; Jordan wins a championship and sprints to the locker room alone with the trophy because it’s his father's day; Jordan has a perfect family life; Jordan is a master at golf and baseball; Jordan would be a champion on any team; Jordan played in college ball; if he played today, Jordan would be dropping 100 points a game; Jordan single-handedly led the North Carolina Tar Heels to a title; Jordan single-handedly led Chicago to a title; Jordan invented long basketball shorts; Jordan jumps the highest because he wears Air sneakers; Jordan is the gold standard for style and conduct... All of this is just marketing and media hype designed to manufacture a superhuman out of Jordan. And that is precisely what makes him an exaggerated sports personality.

darkpilot9 said:I’m telling you again—the whole point of this thread is "exaggerate a sports personality." That's the theme.

Look, let's be real here—calling Michael Jordan one of the greatest players to ever step onto a hardwood court? That’s not just being hype... it's actually dead on. It isn't even close to exaggerating a sports personality at this point; it's just a straight-up fact.

Look, I’m just saying—if you think Michael Jordan isn't basically a superhero, you’re probably watching a different sport entirely. Seriously, the guy could play through a 104-degree fever and still dunk right over Eaton just to shut up the haters who said he couldn't finish over anyone tall. And the free throws? Even when he's shooting them half-asleep, he's still more clutch than anyone else on the planet. He wins the title, grabs that trophy, and bolts straight to the locker room alone because, honestly, it’s Father’s Day and he's got priorities. The man has this perfect, picture-perfect family life—it's almost unreal. Plus, let's be honest, he’d probably be a pro golfer or a star in Major League Baseball if he felt like it. He’d be a champion on literally any team he joined. Whether he’s tearing it up in college ball or leading the Chicago Bulls to glory, the dude is just built different. I mean, pretty sure he actually invented those baggy basketball shorts we all wore back in the day. And that vertical? It’s gotta be the Air Jordans—he’s basically got springs in his shoes. He’s not just a legend on the court, though; the guy is the absolute gold standard for class and style, both in how he dresses and how he carries himself. Just saying. Honestly, the whole thing just feels like massive marketing and media hype—you know, that calculated push to turn Michael Jordan into some kind of superhuman icon. It’s all just branding, I guess. I mean, I don't know—it just feels like they really tend to exaggerate a sports personality, you know? Like, maybe a little too much if you ask me.

Okay, but what does that actually have to do with downplaying his titles or his individual and team awards? I mean, honestly—nothing here feels like anyone is trying to exaggerate a sports personality. It’s just... there.

Paul Lopez6 said:Okay, but I don't see how that actually relates to downplaying his titles or any of his individual/team awards. Nothing there seems to exaggerate a sports personality.

I guess the issue is just how those achievements are framed. They make it look like he was somehow more deserving than everyone else, or even solely responsible for everything, when if you actually look at the stats, he was really just one link in the chain—no more vital than, say, Scottie Pippen or Dennis Rodman. Then there's the fact that he put up some insane individual numbers within that system. Obviously, without that structure, he wouldn't have had those accolades, except maybe for raw scoring stats. I mean, Dominique Wilkins was right on Jordan's heels in scoring for years. He even led the league one year, but he never got the ring because he could never get a decent roster around him.

frozentiger6 said:Marko Kopljar

I didn't see anyone treating that guy like he was some kind of deity, let alone putting him on a pedestal.

dustypanther6 said:Eli Manning

It is exactly the same situation we saw with Kopljar. Look, the kid is a perfectly fine QB, but did anyone ever actually claim he was the best in the league? Not once. When I think back to that absolute circus of a press conference following the game against the Philadelphia Eagles... how can people even argue otherwise?🤣🤣

Honestly, props to Jason Fisher78. He laid out so many undeniable facts, while everyone else barely managed to bring a single point to the table to counter him. And yet, I still see some people posting laughing emojis.

Regarding the GOAT debate, I wouldn't say Michael Jordan is untouchable. I’d throw Magic Johnson into the mix—he was absolutely dominant in his era, especially considering he likely had the better roster with the Boston Celtics. Magic was a total freak of nature; being able to play all five positions in a single game is probably something we'll never see again.

Jason Fisher78 said:Why are you even surprised? That dunk should've been rated at 50 because it stayed behind the free-throw line—it wasn't exactly groundbreaking innovation. Dr. J was practically standing in front of that line, with half his sneaker already over it. Then you've got Scottie Pippen back in 1990 doing the exact same thing, except he barely even touched the line and still walked away with 45 points. 🙄Look, let's get one thing straight: that dunk by Scottie Pippen was actually the first real free throw line dunk we saw. And honestly? Dominique Wilkins getting 45 points for his dunk right after that was a total robbery—he was only up by two before that happened. I'm telling you, this isn't some conspiracy theory and I'm definitely not exaggerating here.☕

Look, if we're really going to be pedantic about it, nobody had ever actually pulled off a free throw line dunk in the NBA back then either. Everyone was cutting it a little close.

So, let me get this straight: Michael Jordan didn't bother reading the assigned book, and that’s why he’s trash. That's the logic here?

Carl Garcia22 said:Seriously, props to Jason Fisher78. The guy laid out so many arguments based on undeniable facts, while everyone else here hasn't even come up with a single decent point to counter him. And yet, I see all these little laughing emojis popping up. It's pathetic.

When we talk about the GOAT, I wouldn't say Michael Jordan is untouchable. You have to bring Magic Johnson into the conversation—the guy was absolutely tearing it up back in his era, and he likely had a better supporting cast, too, looking at those Boston Celtics. Magic was a total freak of nature; playing all five positions in a single game? That’s some stuff you’re probably never going to see again.

What kind of "arguments" did he even make?? The dude basically tried to claim that Scottie Pippen having a shooting percentage that's 0.2% better in the season without Michael Jordan versus the season with him was an actual argument. What kind of nonsense is that??

Jason Fisher78 said:The whole thing is about how those achievements are framed. They present it like he’s somehow more deserving than everyone else—like he was solely responsible for everything—when if you actually look at the raw stats, he was just one link in the chain, maybe no more important than someone like Scottie Pippen or Dennis Rodman. Then there's the fact that he put up some insane individual numbers within that system. Without that structure, obviously, he wouldn't have had those successes, except for his personal stat lines, like total dunks. I mean, Dominique Wilkins was right on Michael Jordan's heels with dunk counts for years. One year he even led the league, but he never got a ring because he could never get a decent roster around him.

Honestly, I don't see anything controversial about what he accomplished. Like, who exactly was he holding back or suppressing? If we’re gonna bring up Scottie Pippen, let's actually look at those damn numbers. He also grabbed 6 championships, was a 7-time NBA All-Star, won an All-Star MVP once, made the All-Defensive Team 8 times, grabbed Olympic gold, and is easily in the top 50 players of all time. His jersey is hanging in the rafters at Madison Square Garden. And look, Toni Kukoč is a legend in international basketball, and he’s never faded under any kind of fake "Michael Jordan shadow." Plus, I bet that entire generation of Chicago Bulls players would tell you that MJ was a leader who probably only comes around once every 50 years. I've seriously never heard anyone in his teammates' interviews try to dispute that.

dustypanther6 said:What kind of arguments is he even making?? He’s basically trying to claim that Scottie Pippen having a shooting percentage that's 0.2% better in seasons without Michael Jordan than in seasons with him is somehow significant. What kind of argument is that??

Is that really all you took from it?
Just ignore everything else the guy actually wrote.

Jason Fisher78 seems like a sharp guy based on his posts (I’ve noticed your takes on politics too).

By the way, do you follow soccer closely? We should definitely grab a drink and talk shop about it. 😁

Carl Garcia22 said:Honestly, hats off to Jason Fisher78. He laid out so many undeniable facts, while everyone else struggled to bring even a single solid point to the table to counter him.

Screw you, Carl Garcia22. Saying "almost" nobody...