Offside (General Discussion)

steelharbor9 said:The patient has basically made it illegal to call this thing a war, but I guess some TV networks are finally starting to lock in the truth 🙏

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ures-in-russia

Between Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube...

fadedridge903 said:If this country actually started bragging about Ante Pavelić or using those old Ustaše salutes, then we'd have a real reason to talk about de-fascistization. Beyond that, the way they’ve treated the Russian language lately is just plain repulsive.
It isn't just a grievance held by Russians, either; even the Canadians in Ukraine are making noise about it.

How can we be certain that the whole Nazi narrative isn't largely fueled by media propaganda? Perhaps we are just looking at tiny, disconnected fragments of a much larger mosaic involving various small nations during World War II.

You seem to push this specific narrative when it comes to Russia, but why doesn't that same scrutiny apply to the Germans from decades ago?

Besides, why should Russia care about the underlying sentiment regarding Nazism in Ukraine?

I might be trolling a little bit here, but I feel you're doing the exact same thing to us. Take the language issue, for instance—it's valid, but you never point out how the presence of Nazism in Ukraine functions similarly to the historical baggage in the US. It exists on a symbolic level through certain subcultural rituals, nothing more and nothing less than what one might see in Germany.

Jonathan Barnes5 said:How can we be certain that the whole Nazi narrative isn't largely fueled by media propaganda? Perhaps we are just looking at tiny, disconnected fragments of a much larger mosaic involving various small nations during World War II.

You seem to push this specific narrative when it comes to Russia, but why doesn't that same scrutiny apply to the Germans from decades ago?

Besides, why should Russia care about the underlying sentiment regarding Nazism in Ukraine?

I might be trolling a little bit here, but I feel you're doing the exact same thing to us. Take the language issue, for instance—it's valid, but you never point out how the presence of Nazism in Ukraine functions similarly to the historical baggage in the US. It exists on a symbolic level through certain subcultural rituals, nothing more and nothing less than what one might see in Germany.

Or even in Russia.

Jonathan Barnes5 said:How can we be certain that the whole Nazi narrative isn't largely fueled by media propaganda? Perhaps we are just looking at tiny, disconnected fragments of a much larger mosaic involving various small nations during World War II.

You seem to push this specific narrative when it comes to Russia, but why doesn't that same scrutiny apply to the Germans from decades ago?

Besides, why should Russia care about the underlying sentiment regarding Nazism in Ukraine?

I might be trolling a little bit here, but I feel you're doing the exact same thing to us. Take the language issue, for instance—it's valid, but you never point out how the presence of Nazism in Ukraine functions similarly to the historical baggage in the US. It exists on a symbolic level through certain subcultural rituals, nothing more and nothing less than what one might see in Germany.

In America, a mayor of some random city isn't going to give an interview while having a portrait of Ante Pavelić hanging behind him.
nor would you see a massive poster of him draped over a county courthouse building.

Jonathan Barnes5 said:How can we be certain that the whole Nazi narrative isn't largely fueled by media propaganda? Perhaps we are just looking at tiny, disconnected fragments of a much larger mosaic involving various small nations during World War II.

You seem to push this specific narrative when it comes to Russia, but why doesn't that same scrutiny apply to the Germans from decades ago?

Besides, why should Russia care about the underlying sentiment regarding Nazism in Ukraine?

I might be trolling a little bit here, but I feel you're doing the exact same thing to us. Take the language issue, for instance—it's valid, but you never point out how the presence of Nazism in Ukraine functions similarly to the historical baggage in the US. It exists on a symbolic level through certain subcultural rituals, nothing more and nothing less than what one might see in Germany.

There’s no trolling going on here; all these questions are perfectly valid.
The presence of Nazism isn't just media propaganda. The simple fact that you can greet a Ukrainian with "Slava Ukraini" while you certainly couldn't greet an American with "for Za Dom Spremni" tells you everything you need to know about how Nazism is tolerated in Ukraine.

boldbadger1 said:Or even in Russia.

That was actually my line of thinking too🤣. However, I suspect Russia's interests extend far beyond just Ukraine, likely due to their grip on the Caucasus and various migratory pressures. Does anyone else recall those massive riots back in Moscow when the Spartak fans were targeted?

It reminds me of how the BBC reported on those Nazi-aligned Russian mobs following the events in Marseille.

Steven Fox37 said:In America, a mayor of some random city isn't going to give an interview while having a portrait of Ante Pavelić hanging behind him.
nor would you see a massive poster of him draped over a county courthouse building.

The historical weight of the Bandera context compared to Ante Pavelić isn't even in the same league, much like how one can't truly compare the era of the old Kingdom to the rise of the first USSR. Trying to lump all these different tragedies into one bucket is just nonsensical and feels more like cheap propaganda than actual history.

Does anyone from the Russian side feel any shame over the millions of Ukrainians they've killed?

We could go in circles throwing examples at each other all day, but I could just as easily argue that the entire Russian political leadership from 1945 to 1990 was equally devastating in terms of their crimes against humanity.

Jonathan Barnes5 said:The historical weight of the Bandera context compared to Ante Pavelić isn't even in the same league, much like how one can't truly compare the era of the old Kingdom to the rise of the first USSR. Trying to lump all these different tragedies into one bucket is just nonsensical and feels more like cheap propaganda than actual history.

Does anyone from the Russian side feel any shame over the millions of Ukrainians they've killed?

We could go in circles throwing examples at each other all day, but I could just as easily argue that the entire Russian political leadership from 1945 to 1990 was equally devastating in terms of their crimes against humanity.

Claiming "the contexts aren't the same" is the standard fallback everyone uses. It’s what every side says when they want to cherry-pick history to suit their own narrative and claim things "weren't quite like that."

fadedridge903 said:There’s no trolling going on here; all these questions are perfectly valid.
The presence of Nazism isn't just media propaganda. The simple fact that you can greet a Ukrainian with "Slava Ukraini" while you certainly couldn't greet an American with "for Za Dom Spremni" tells you everything you need to know about how Nazism is tolerated in Ukraine.

I don't see how that's relevant. Fascism and Nazism didn't share the same views on most things, nor did their allies share the same goals or stances as the Nazis themselves.

To draw a parallel, could you really take the sins of racism or the war crimes committed by specific democratic nations and pin them on all democracies everywhere? Or even look at what was left of anti-fascism in communist-controlled parts of Europe when they were busy carrying out political class liquidations across the continent?

Ultimately, what foundation does Ukraine actually have for statehood, given that almost their entire history consists of being suppressed by the Russian Empire for 300 years, aside from some Cossack uprisings and cooperation with anti-Russian forces?

Calling out a country for ethnic persecution and attempted industrial genocide just because of certain symbols or similarities to nationalist rebels fighting against the USSR during World War II feels dishonest—honestly, it feels morally bankrupt. Isn't that just more propaganda designed to demonize someone and pave the way for further slaughter and revenge?

Steven Fox37 said:Claiming "the contexts aren't the same" is the standard fallback everyone uses. It’s what every side says when they want to cherry-pick history to suit their own narrative and claim things "weren't quite like that."

It seems like you've been downplaying this whole act of aggression from the get-go, accusing everyone else of being one-sided. I can see how that old-school communist mindset might still resonate with you, driven by that deep-seated impulse to defend crumbling institutions, but we are living in 2022; that line of reasoning belongs more to folks hanging out at a local convenience store in a small town in rural America, listening to political rallies.

You could have argued, for instance, that the USSR treated Ukrainian women terribly, making it understandable why some might look toward the West when given the chance to build national cohesion and establish a functioning state. You could have suggested that it's perfectly natural for a nation rebuilding its identity to draw from all parts of its history, and that organic progress takes time to settle.

Instead, you chose to adopt a tone reminiscent of Milka Dapčević, attacking Ukrainians as if they personally held Adolf Hitler in high regard.

There is another vital point to consider here. Vladimir Putin and his inner circle are systematically attempting to paint Ukrainians as Nazis because they are profoundly unsettled by the surge of national identity emerging within the country. Consequently, any Ukrainian who displays patriotism or leans toward Western values is branded a Nazi in the eyes of that little man and his cronies. He has explicitly stated on numerous occasions that they are one single people and that Ukraine as a sovereign state does not exist—claiming it has always been an integral part of Russia. That Chetnik even stood before cameras and openly blamed Vladimir Lenin and the Soviet Revolution for Russia losing territories, while simultaneously praising Joseph Stalin for reclaiming certain areas. With him, there isn't even a pretense of acting; he is blunt about his disdain for his Western neighbors. Anyone who refuses to conform to his narrative is viewed merely as a Nazi horde destined for destruction. It is primitive, raw propaganda that has found fertile ground among certain groups in the US and specific individuals elsewhere, despite the fact that the vast majority actually support the Ukrainians. If those local Chetniks or the small-time thugs surrounding that midget tried to organize anything substantial, I suspect the police would have to guard them just to prevent them from being wiped out by axes.

According to Wikipedia, the greeting "Slava Ukraini" actually dates back to the Ukrainian War of Independence 1917. Later on, nationalists added the part about "glory to the heroes." So, we're talking about everything prior to World War II.

Next thing you know, they'll claim that phrase is just some line from an opera.

https://i.postimg.cc/GmHMjSBz/FNCEG-3-Vc-AM-Gy5.jpg

🤣

If we follow that line of reasoning, we’d have to scrap our national anthem too, since the NDH used it. By that logic, the Germans should just strip all the insignia off the Bundeswehr and call it a day.

Matthew Collins20 said:https://i.postimg.cc/GmHMjSBz/FNCEG-3-Vc-AM-Gy5.jpg

🤣

🤣

mellowotter36 said:According to Wikipedia, the greeting "Slava Ukraini" actually dates back to the Ukrainian War of Independence 1917. Later on, nationalists added the part about "glory to the heroes." So, we're talking about everything prior to World War II.

Honestly, just ignore the domestic Chetniks. You can try to explain things to them until you're blue in the face, but they will stubbornly copy and paste that midget propaganda. They are trapped in that narrow mindset and refuse to confront actual argumentation because then their transparent, lying narrative collapses like a house of cards. When nobody alive is actually pushing that propaganda anymore, suddenly the entire world has conspired against Mother Russia. A global conspiracy, apparently. Only Sputnik, RT, and similar outlets serve as bastions of free thought—the very same ones under direct state control 🤣 and, of course, advance.hr if they even still exist. For those local nostalgics who missed the USSR, it was all well and good until they too became capitalists and introduced subscription fees.

Is it "Brother Pule" or "Brother Pujo"? 😬

Jonathan Barnes5 said:It seems like you've been downplaying this whole act of aggression from the get-go, accusing everyone else of being one-sided. I can see how that old-school communist mindset might still resonate with you, driven by that deep-seated impulse to defend crumbling institutions, but we are living in 2022; that line of reasoning belongs more to folks hanging out at a local convenience store in a small town in rural America, listening to political rallies.

You could have argued, for instance, that the USSR treated Ukrainian women terribly, making it understandable why some might look toward the West when given the chance to build national cohesion and establish a functioning state. You could have suggested that it's perfectly natural for a nation rebuilding its identity to draw from all parts of its history, and that organic progress takes time to settle.

Instead, you chose to adopt a tone reminiscent of Milka Dapčević, attacking Ukrainians as if they personally held Adolf Hitler in high regard.

I'm not trivializing anything here. It just seems like anyone who disagrees with you automatically becomes a "trivializer" in your eyes.
By that logic, I could say you're the one trivializing the whole Azov Regiment and similar groups with all this talk about "organic filtering."
Filtering doesn't happen naturally; it happens through pressure.
To claim that Ukrainians sided with the Germans—when Wikipedia suggests the UPA had maybe 20k to 200k members while the Red Army had between 4 to 7 million Ukrainians—is just an extreme stretch.

Kyle Lopez2 said:I don't see how that's relevant. Fascism and Nazism didn't share the same views on most things, nor did their allies share the same goals or stances as the Nazis themselves.

To draw a parallel, could you really take the sins of racism or the war crimes committed by specific democratic nations and pin them on all democracies everywhere? Or even look at what was left of anti-fascism in communist-controlled parts of Europe when they were busy carrying out political class liquidations across the continent?

Ultimately, what foundation does Ukraine actually have for statehood, given that almost their entire history consists of being suppressed by the Russian Empire for 300 years, aside from some Cossack uprisings and cooperation with anti-Russian forces?

Calling out a country for ethnic persecution and attempted industrial genocide just because of certain symbols or similarities to nationalist rebels fighting against the USSR during World War II feels dishonest—honestly, it feels morally bankrupt. Isn't that just more propaganda designed to demonize someone and pave the way for further slaughter and revenge?

When a people's culture and language are stripped away, that's where your fascism and Nazism arguments start to apply. I'm looking at this primarily through the lens of geopolitics.

Kyle Campbell4 said:Honestly, just ignore the domestic Chetniks. You can try to explain things to them until you're blue in the face, but they will stubbornly copy and paste that midget propaganda. They are trapped in that narrow mindset and refuse to confront actual argumentation because then their transparent, lying narrative collapses like a house of cards. When nobody alive is actually pushing that propaganda anymore, suddenly the entire world has conspired against Mother Russia. A global conspiracy, apparently. Only Sputnik, RT, and similar outlets serve as bastions of free thought—the very same ones under direct state control 🤣 and, of course, advance.hr if they even still exist. For those local nostalgics who missed the USSR, it was all well and good until they too became capitalists and introduced subscription fees.

According to Western media, Sputnik and RT are the true bastions of liberty.
I used to read Advance back when I was a kid.