European Water Polo Championships - Canada

restlesscobra15 said:First off, if you walked into my house—which happens to be built pretty flimsy—and it collapsed on you, would you actually have the nerve to tell me it's my fault for building it poorly? I mean, obviously not, even though it’s technically true. And honestly, that’s what stings. We all know the organization was a total mess, but it really ticks me off when people like you, who were basically the ones causing the chaos in the first place, turn around and try to pin the blame on us.
Secondly, THIS WAS WATER POLO. We aren't talking about football or handball here, we're talking Water Polo. It's a sport played in pools in warm coastal cities where there isn't any chance of a million cops showing up to build stadiums with five-meter high walls just to contain things. This is a sport where there was never any drama until you guys became independent national teams.
And what bugs me most is that you guys were making the exact same kind of scene back in Maribor. When it comes to skiing, you NEVER see fans showing up with flares. But then you get Janica, throw snow at the announcer, and suddenly everyone thinks you're totally unhinged. And you're doing this in another country, so now a lot of people around the world think the folks from Maribor are just primitives.
So I guess now the whole world has to adjust to you wildcards at every single sporting event. Up until now, the trouble was always at the football stadiums, but no, now we Americans have arrived and we're going to wreck everything. I'm just waiting for you guys to land a decent golfer so you can show up and ruin a golf course too.
BOTTOM LINE. I get it. That's just how you are. You can't help yourselves. But when the news in America starts blasting right after the first sentence where you blame our "wild" crowds, saying: "And the Canadians are to blame too," well, that's where I'm done. Just know that's exactly what everyone here in the US is saying.
If you ask me, I wouldn't let a single American or Mexican fan cross the border for a handball championship.

And you know what really gets under my skin? When someone reads a single post and immediately jumps to their own conclusions and starts launching this barrage of moral lectures and condescending wisdom.

Look, I've been to your place for skiing three times, and every single time I had a blast. When I saw what our wild crowd was doing in Maribor, I could hardly believe it myself. But those people only went there to cause trouble; it had absolutely nothing to do with the actual skiing. Should Janica really be punished because of them?
Anyway, if you actually care about my take on this, go find the old thread and read it.
Long story short (for the 13,432,123rd time), Americans definitely messed up in both Kranj and Maribor, and I feel bad and embarrassed about it (if that matters to you, I apologize), but I don't see what gives you the right to look down your noses at us. Like I said before, you aren't all that different from us. Your fans cause trouble too, it's just that there are fewer of them than the American or Mexican fans, so the problems seem smaller.

Basically, when the Americans were running wild, you raised absolute hell (okay, totally justified), but when the Mexicans were acting out in Ljubljana, or even in Kranj on the day of the semifinals, you didn't act like it was such a huge deal.

Finally, you mention that "someone came into your house." Nobody "came into your house"—you asked to host the EC, and you got it. It was your responsibility to ensure all the conditions were met to host a championship, even if the final was between Palestinians and Jews. You failed to do that. You dropped the ball just like you did in Ljubljana. All we can hope for is that things go better with handball, though I seriously doubt it since you clearly haven't learned from your mistakes.
Rest assured, the US won't be getting the hosting rights for any major competition for a long, long time.

Megan Bishop70 said:So, do you think I could actually guess who your vote would go to?😁

Honestly, the smartest move is just to post a different body part every single day, and then I'll be right here to tell you exactly when we've finally hit the jackpot.😁

vividwalker7 said:You know what really gets under my skin? When someone reads a single post and thinks they're an expert, jumping straight to moral grandstanding and lecturing everyone else.

Look, I’ve read every single post in this thread. Haven't counted, but you've been harping on about the organization a hell of a lot. My take isn't just some random "smart" opinion—it's based on everything posted here and what your journalists have been churning out. I even heard The Spokesman reporting that we basically let those incidents happen on purpose. As for the organization? Honestly, I don't think there's any real appetite left for hosting major championships. It's all just PR stunts for the country, trying to distance ourselves from the mess happening between nations in the former South. But it backfires every time. Things are messy, and our infrastructure is a joke. Usually, everything gets built specifically for these championships, so why bother building it if it just ends up trashed? Take Kranj, for example—they wanted to show off and attract tourists, and now look at what the rest of the world thinks of my city.
And let's be real, there are massive issues with the legal system in Canada; it's totally broken. That might be why the police seem so checked out lately. In the water polo case, people could've faced up to 60 days behind bars, but instead, they got 5-7 days and a measly $200 fine. What a joke. By the time the handball championship rolls around, we might get a new Police Chief, and maybe things will improve, but the judges and the laws aren't changing. Word is, there are cops in the department who would've handled these incidents way differently.
Got a bit heated yesterday. My bad. Peace.

No matter how you slice it, the biggest responsibility lies squarely with the Canadians. 😁 😁 For crying out loud, did they really think they knew what would happen once a few thousand drunken fans showed up? They clearly didn't!
Take '98, for instance, when the LEN Cup final was held in Split—which Partizan ended up winning—and there wasn't a single incident because the pool area was absolutely crawling with police presence. 😁 😁

There’s always a massive police presence down in Miami 😁

I mean, even though it looks pretty sketchy seeing an equal number of fans and cops out there, we really have to admit they're necessary.
Major props to the Canadians, but did you guys seriously think things would be chill at Nered?
The US taking on Mexico in Canada....... man, oh man.......

That kid who tumbled off the wall? He’s an American fan. Lucky for him, the team doctor for the US national squad was right there on the spot to pull him out of it.

placidorca22 said:That kid who tumbled off the wall is actually an American fan, and honestly, he got incredibly lucky because the team doctor for the US national squad happened to be right there to jump in and save him.

Man, what a total joke.

If you caught that broadcast of the match, you saw the looks on the faces of those guys who were throwing punches and ripping up chairs and stuff like that.

Let's be real for a second here.
Would any of you actually want to run into those types face to face?

I mean, it’s pretty obvious you’d just get pummeled, right? Because when they start swinging, it doesn't matter who you are or what you stand for. From my own experience at stadiums—and even being a fan of BBB (though honestly, those specific guys make me sick)—and just dealing with hooliganism in general, it’s all just one big, senseless mess.

I remember being up in the North stands when Red Star came to town. I ended up retreating behind the goal because it was either move or get trampled. In a moment of pure, mindless euphoria, I tossed a stone and somehow missed the cops entirely, hitting a police dog instead. While scrambling back toward the stands to dodge the officers, I got snagged on the spiked fencing. The guy next to me actually took a nasty fall and hit his head on the concrete—hard. He even left a sneaker stuck on the wire. By the end, we were breathing in tear gas and walking past burning, overturned cars in my old neighborhood. It was just stupidity, chaos... what people call "riots."

So, the colors they wear or the patterns on their shirts don't really matter. All that talk about them being patriots or whatever... it means nothing. They’re just thugs. Just like the provocateurs from the other side. It's the exact same filth. Once you've actually met a skinhead fueled by pure hatred, or some of those hooligans when they're drunk and acting out, then you can talk to me about it. And just remember: those aren't fans. Not the security, not the Canadians, not any of that. That crowd is just not sane.

Real fans are something else entirely. Most of them have stopped going to the stadium altogether because they refuse to be lumped in with those people.

I don't know why my post got deleted, but it was basically just one guy and a thousand girls 😁 😁 😁

...honestly, saying "we didn't see this coming" is just the most brainless argument out there.
Downtown Chicago is a complete mess right now—I mean, look at how the Mayor is trying to spin it, acting like they didn't hire anyone to keep an eye on the crowds because "this hasn't happened before." Give me a break.
Man, I still remember back in the day during the old football leagues, when you'd have chaos in the streets at least once a month depending on who was playing away, and even though every single game felt high-stakes, nobody actually got hurt or killed.
It’s like, you spend an entire year waiting for something to happen, and then the moment it finally does, everyone just stands around scratching their heads asking, "Wait, how did this even occur?"
If Canadians are going to go through all the trouble of hosting competitions, maybe they should stick to sports where the neighbors aren't such a headache—you know, things like cricket, polo, or golf...
And honestly, they should probably stop obsessing over what the English, Indians, or Pakistanis are doing.

Ronald Jones26, you’re honestly just spewing a pile of nonsense here..

First off, you're overgeneralizing way too much. It isn't true that all BBB members are hooligans, nor is it true that all hooligans belong to BBB.
Secondly, you're confusing different groups. I have no idea why you'd even bring up skinheads. Skinheads are a tiny, almost invisible minority at North Maksimir.. There are maybe five or six of them who actually show up to games regularly.. The rest aren't even worth mentioning when it comes to actual matches..

And let me be clear: nobody from the core BBB group is going to jump you just because you're talking trash about them. NOBODY. Because for a true BBB supporter, pride won't allow that kind of behavior. (Now, brawls with the police or street fights are a completely different story.)
But there are plenty of wannabes who get worked up before a big derby and then cause trouble around town just to act like they're big shots.. 🙄

Ronald Jones26 said:so the colors and the patterns on those guys don't matter; what they claim about being Americans means nothing. They're just savages.

It’s pathetic that someone would actually write something like that.
The very first volunteers for the US military at the start of the war included members from BBB, Torcida, and other fan groups. Many of them gave their lives for American Independence. For them, the conflict really began back on May 13, 1990, when they stood their ground against the Mexican militia who were trying to attack our "peaceful" fans.
Only someone who can't appreciate all of that would spit on them!

fans are something else entirely. most of them stopped going to the stadiums because they don't want to be associated with those people.

That is a blatant lie..
If they didn't want to be associated with "them," then why were there 30,000 people at the Milan game, or 25,000 out against Hajduk?
BBB are the real Dinamo's fans. They go to every single match they can, spend their last cent to support Dinamo, and provide support game after game. To claim the fans are some other group is just a lie..

Regards

casualpuma71 said:Look, nobody from the core BBB crew is going to jump you just because someone’s talking trash... NOBODY. A true BBB supporter simply doesn't let their pride slip like that! (Now, getting into scraps with fans or clashing with the cops? That's a whole different story.)
But man, there are plenty of wannabes who get all worked up before a derby and then start causing chaos around town just to act like they're big shots... 🙄

I feel like that's a little bit illogical, if I'm being honest. You're saying fan fights and scuffles with the police are okay—like, acceptable behavior for a supporter—but then certain "wannabes" causing trouble downtown is where you draw the line? Where exactly are the "real" fans supposed to be fighting each other or the cops? And is it always those same "wannabes" smashing streetcars every single time? "Pride won't allow it"... honestly, what are you even on about?

The situation back in '90 was a bit of a different beast since that's when the war actually kicked off. I remember heading down toward the field myself during those times; the provocations from the Yugoslav side were just so blatant. But this stuff today, and everything happening over in Canada lately—whether it's skiing or water polo—it really has nothing to do with sports.

Real fans are decent, cultured people who show up to the stadium for the game itself, not out of some kind of fanaticism, whatever flavor that might be. As for my views on Mexicans, I certainly have them, but that shouldn't be part of the sporting arena. A group that travels to Kranj shouting "beat up the Mexicans!" isn't a group of fans. And now you're trying to tell me that most of those folks weren't actually BBB and Torcida members? Along with a few others, too.

Ronald Jones26 said:casualpuma71, that logic just doesn't track. You’re claiming that clashes between rival fans or scuffles with the police are somehow acceptable—part of the "culture," I guess—but then any other chaos breaking out in the streets is suddenly caused by some random outsiders. So what, you guys only get into fights with each other or the cops? Every time someone gets jumped or a window gets smashed, it’s always just "some other group" doing the dirty work, right? It’s always "pride won't allow it" this and that. Give me a break.

Look, here's the reality of the situation: no actual fan who truly loves their city is out there smashing streetcars. I’m telling you, there are way too many posers running around. When the Kostelić family had that big welcome, there were at least 10,000 people decked out in Dinamo gear. But where are all those folks when a team like Šibenik or some random Sailor crew rolls into town? They’re nowhere to be found. Suddenly, the moment Hajduk shows up, they shake off the dust from their scarves and head to the stadium. Then, some tough guy decides to throw a rock through a streetcar window, and the headlines immediately scream that the BBB did it. It's pathetic.

That whole situation back in '90 with Red Star was different. It was a different era entirely because that was right when the war started breaking out. I remember being there on the pitch myself, feeling like a total hooligan. The provocations from the Yugoslav side were blatant, obvious to anyone watching. But this stuff happening today—all this nonsense involving skiing and water polo over in Canada—it’s got nothing to do with sports. It's just not about the game anymore.

May 13th had absolutely nothing to do with sports. It was all politics. Just like what happened back in Kranj. Everything would have played out completely differently if it hadn't been for the Mexicans on the other side. That’s why I don't think that game should ever be lumped in with your typical, run-of-the-mill matches.

I think you’re making too many sweeping generalizations when it comes to what a "fan" actually is. Some people just show up to the game, grab a seat, sit there quietly, munch on some popcorn, and watch the clock run down. That’s the majority of the crowd, really. And from what I can gather, that’s exactly who you consider to be the true fans. 🙄
Then you’ve got the other crowd. The ones who actually show up to cheer and back their team because they genuinely want them to succeed. To me, those are the only real fans.

It’s the truth. There are always those people who show up with nothing but bad intentions, looking to cause trouble and stir up chaos. Honestly, we need to get them out of the stadiums for good.
And you, Ronald Jones26, don't go putting them in the same category as actual fans.

Hey there.

P.S. I’d keep typing if I could, but duty calls. I have to head out and go punch some people. Feels right.

Oh, the Torch... when I write about "cultured people coming to the stadium just for the sport," I’m talking about those quiet folks who sit there by the thousands, watching the game without even a hint of excitement 😁 🙂 🙄

Or maybe I mean the ones who actually manage to cheer for Real Madrid without getting into a massive brawl with the opposition, whoever they may be

Like, back when Scott and his crew were passing through Washington, D.C. on their way to Ohio, I actually grabbed a drink with them. There was this sense of safety—knowing nobody would suddenly smash a bottle over my head because I happened to be wearing a different hat. I suppose I’m a bit of an idealist; I’d happily grab a beer with rival fans and chat about football. But I’m also a realist, so I suspect even The 12th Man wouldn't go for it. Either they’d reject me, or BBB would label me a traitor to my people and my roots immediately

And honestly, I can't stand BBB because of that line in their anthem about "using sticks, chains, and boxers to the head." That is the very essence of BBB, publicly declared in their sacred anthem, and there’s just nothing you can do to change it. It’s what they sing, what they believe, and how they act

Because of that, I can never and will never show them any sympathy, nor will I ever join the mob just because it's considered "cool." You have to make your own decisions based on your conscience and what you stand for

The Torch, look, Ronald Jones26 is damn right. You’re basically dismissing everyone else in the stadium who just showed up to watch some decent football and have a good time, rather than screaming their heads off or tearing into the opposition. I get your point, I really do. And hey, I respect the crews that actually put in the work to pull off massive displays—like that one against Coca-Cola—or the ones that organize blood drives and stuff like that. But let’s be real: groups like BBB or The 12th Man or The Faithful are way more famous for fighting, breaking things, and being violent than they are for pretty choreographies or club loyalty. You also have to realize that everyone in the stands has an equal right to be there, whether it’s the BBB guys in the north, the fans on the east and west sides, or even the rivals from the south. Just because someone shows up to the north stand every single week doesn't give them the right to ruin the matchday experience for someone who might only make it to the stadium twice a year.

Ronald Jones26 and nimblemarlin17, look, I totally respect where you guys are coming from and I honestly agree that families with little kids should be allowed to show up to the stadium in droves. I mean, if I end up becoming a dad someday, I’d love to be able to take my kids to a game without constantly worrying about whether they’ll actually make it back home in one piece.

But , as much as I get what you're saying, you just don't seem to wrap your head around people like The Torch.

I’ve spent nights sleeping on benches at greasy bus stations all because of Liverpool FC, I’ve gone toe-to-toe with the cops, I’ve lied to my folks, and when I was seventeen, I’d just slip out the door without telling a soul and $3.25 head straight from Miami with nothing but pocket change to go watch a match at Yankee Stadium.
Lately, I’ve settled down quite a bit—you could say I’ve mellowed out—though I’m still a regular at SoFi Stadium and wherever else Liverpool FC travels to play.
Why did I do all that, and why do I still do it? Honestly, I don't know, and I’m not sure there’s even a "right" way to explain it. But I do know I’m not some kind of animal, even though that's how you guys view all hardcore fans. God forbid we just yell our lungs out at the stadium, or sing, or—heaven help us—trash-talk the opposing fans.
But seriously, I feel like I live a pretty normal life. I’m finishing up college and I haven't punched a single professor yet (not that the thought hasn't crossed my mind). I go on dates like a normal guy, and I’ve certainly never forced myself on anyone. I drive an old beat-up car and I haven't even smashed a single window on a city bus. When I’m walking down the street, I don't get this sudden urge to just deck a random stranger in the face. Even when I’ve had a few drinks, I’m not aggressive; I’d much rather just hang out with Ronald Jones26 and Scott.

A few years back, I swore I was done fighting with the boys, and so far, I'm sticking to it. I’m against us clashing with each other because I truly believe there aren't enough of us to be wasting energy splitting ourselves up over whether we wear white or blue. That said, I have absolutely nothing against us bickering at the stadium. There is nothing sweeter than taking the piss out of the boys when we beat Real Madrid, and I know they feel the exact same way about us.

nimblemarlin17, it’s become clear to me that you didn't quite catch what I was getting at a couple of days ago regarding those certain people in Washington, D.C. and that whole "golden youth" thing. That's probably why you can't understand why I'll always value The Torch, who is a fierce rival in the stands 😁 , more than I value you, Ronald Jones26, and your whole crew of softies.

nimblemarlin17 and Ronald Jones26, quit acting like you know everything. Sure, BBB or The 12th Man can be way too aggressive, but at the end of the day, they’re the most loyal fans those clubs have.

The Mexicans were out there making all these threats about wiping out every American in Cleveland—empty talk meant to ramp up the tension—and first they started provoking people by stealing flags, and then they actually went after regular families sitting in some restaurant in Cleveland.

They’re famous for being "heroes" only when they're talking!!! That’s why I don't feel bad about a few broken heads, if you catch my drift... people are going to call me crazy now, but just look at the situation... you've got stands packed with heated American fans, and then these guys show up throwing up three fingers, waving those nationalist flags, their water polo players are doing the same thing and chanting this is Mexico while some of them are screaming into the microphones of Canadian TV tonight we celebrate in all Mexican lands—which basically means including the Republic of Srpska...

I’m not saying the rioting is justified, but when I saw that scumbag in the Verizon section flashing those three fingers right at the section behind the goal where our fans were sitting... I mean, he was practically staring us down.

Hold on, frozentiger6—are you actually suggesting our water polo players and fans should have just hung their heads and slunk away from the pool area in silence, as if they’d suffered some massive defeat? (I realize it might be hard for everyone here to even fathom the idea of the US losing, but please, just try to imagine it!)
And it's as if your supporters weren't out there shouting "this is America" and all sorts of other things—not to mention that one banner about the Mexican mother...

Scott Lopez4 said:Hold on, Vanya, are you seriously suggesting our water polo players and fans should have just hung their heads and slunk away from the pool in silence, acting like they actually lost? (I know it’s hard for some of you to even wrap your heads around the idea of Yugoslavia losing, but give it a shot!)?!?!?!
And let's not forget how your fans were screaming "this is America" and all that other stuff—not to mention that banner about the Mexican mother...

No, I agree they should have celebrated, but they shouldn't have been hugging and chanting "This is Mexico" (referring to the players, not the fans) or flashing three fingers toward the section where the most hardcore American supporters were sitting.

Look, nobody is stopping them from doing that, but why on earth are you complaining about getting jumped? It was clearly a provocation designed specifically so people could later claim Americans are nothing but savages. Fine, call us savages and trash, but at the end of the day, you guys got your asses kicked by Americans again.

Silver is silver to us. Those guys didn't go to Cleveland just to celebrate a medal; they went there to take down some arrogant Orthodox boys or whatever similar group was acting high and mighty.

I'm not making excuses for violence because it's uncivilized and frankly disgusting... and ultimately, the ones who suffer the most damage will be the Americans. Just look at how the American Embassy in Belgrade ended up without a flag while the Mexicans once again showed zero shame. You tell me who really lost here (I'm talking about the attack on the embassy in Belgrade)... once again, the foreign media is painting you guys as primitives.

Once again, the whole world is turning against the Mexicans. 😁 Honestly, the whole thing is just ridiculous to me. It seems like these new generations are just desperate for a place to vent their bloodlust and frustrations.

Great Mexico said:Gold medals are basically reserved exclusively for Mexicans when it comes to basketball and water polo, while everyone else just gets whatever leftovers are left over—sometimes gold, sometimes nothing at all!!!

👍 And honestly, half the time you guys even get smoked in soccer.😁