2013 United States Grand Prix (Las Vegas) - April 21st

nimblesurfer17 said:That was a fantastic race—really enjoyed watching that one!☕

The final showdown was quite the spectacle—even for those cars without DRS! Seeing the McLarens and Lewis-Mark battling it out like that—it really keeps you on the edge of your seat.

Huge congratulations to Jason Campbell70! Well deserved.

And of course, we can't forget about Kimi and Romain...🙏

Ferrari... honestly, where do we even begin? It’s such a rollercoaster—one minute you're riding high on pure adrenaline, and the next, you're left staring at the screen wondering how things went sideways so fast. I was chatting with a buddy of mine over coffee the other day about it, and he had the same sentiment—it's that classic mix of absolute brilliance and baffling decisions. They have all the ingredients for greatness, but sometimes it feels like they just can't quite find the right rhythm to pull it all together. Still, despite the headaches, I can't help but stay optimistic. There's just something about that scarlet livery that keeps me coming back for more!🤣

🤣

Hold on—how many times did he get slapped around by the actual contenders on track today? Four? Five?

The only thing worth noting was him getting past Lewis Hamilton, but let’s be honest—Lewis was struggling big time out there today...
The rest of the race was basically just watching him weave through cars that were significantly slower than the Ferrari...
Look, you guys might not want to hear it, but it's time to face reality: the Ferrari is a damn good car this year.

Your logic—much like Gum’s mood today—is completely off base.....

If three bottom-tier drivers like Max Pile and Talos are rambling about a "master," you really have to wonder if they're being serious or just sarcastic... though, seeing how the master drove—absolutely flawlessly—the answer seems pretty obvious to me.🤣

I think it might be time for me to step away from this subforum for a while..

I feel like I’m spending way too much energy—and honestly, losing my patience—trying to have a rational conversation with the Ferrari and Alonso fans here. It’s starting to feel less like a debate and more like a cult, which I think someone pointed out earlier today.. I do want to give a shout-out to the exceptions, though, like Amanda Kelly—she’s one of those rare users you can actually exchange logical arguments with, even when we don't see eye to eye on everything..

It just feels like there aren't enough people left who haven't been completely blinded by their favorite drivers or teams. It seems like most discussions have shifted toward nothing but blind worship of certain icons, usually accompanied by tearing down anyone else in their path..

Let me repeat myself:

nimblesurfer17 said:That was a fantastic race—really enjoyed watching that one!☕

The final showdown was quite the spectacle—even for those cars without DRS! Seeing the McLarens and Lewis-Mark battling it out like that—it really keeps you on the edge of your seat.

Huge congratulations to Jason Campbell70! Well deserved.

And of course, we can't forget about Kimi and Romain...🙏

Ferrari... honestly, where do we even begin? It’s such a rollercoaster—one minute you're riding high on pure adrenaline, and the next, you're left staring at the screen wondering how things went sideways so fast. I was chatting with a buddy of mine over coffee the other day about it, and he had the same sentiment—it's that classic mix of absolute brilliance and baffling decisions. They have all the ingredients for greatness, but sometimes it feels like they just can't quite find the right rhythm to pull it all together. Still, despite the headaches, I can't help but stay optimistic. There's just something about that scarlet livery that keeps me coming back for more!🤣

🤣

Hold on—how many times did he get slapped around by the actual contenders on track today? Four? Five?

The only thing worth noting was him getting past Lewis Hamilton, but let’s be honest—Lewis was struggling big time out there today...
The rest of the race was basically just watching him weave through cars that were significantly slower than the Ferrari...
Look, you guys might not want to hear it, but it's time to face reality: the Ferrari is a damn good car this year.

Can you actually, or can you not, list those "four or five times he got humiliated on track by relevant rivals"?

Can you, or can't you? ☕

EDIT - I suppose we won't be seeing an answer anytime soon.
So much for "admitting certain truths instead of just belittling and trash-talking opponents".

nimblesurfer17 said:I think it might be time for me to step away from this subforum for a while..

I feel like I’m spending way too much energy—and honestly, losing my patience—trying to have a rational conversation with the Ferrari and Alonso fans here. It’s starting to feel less like a debate and more like a cult, which I think someone pointed out earlier today.. I do want to give a shout-out to the exceptions, though, like Amanda Kelly—she’s one of those rare users you can actually exchange logical arguments with, even when we don't see eye to eye on everything..

It just feels like there aren't enough people left who haven't been completely blinded by their favorite drivers or teams. It seems like most discussions have shifted toward nothing but blind worship of certain icons, usually accompanied by tearing down anyone else in their path..

Please, just show me one single post—not four or five—where you actually attempted to have a normal conversation.

Sebastian Vettel is nothing short of a maestro, regardless of how much people try to downplay his brilliance. I find myself genuinely fearing a repeat of what we saw back in 2011. It truly feels like a misfortune for the rest of the grid, having to compete during his era; he has already cast such an immense shadow over his peers. Furthermore, it is quite disheartening to see so much bitterness being poured out here over the matter. Wouldn't it be easier for everyone to simply embrace this reality? The sooner you come to terms with it, the more enjoyable your experience following F1 will actually be.

steelmaker83 said:Please, just show me one single post—not four or five—where you actually attempted to have a normal conversation.

Well, 🤦Jason Campbell70
finally decided to show up.

redheron12 said:Well, 🤦Jason Campbell70
finally decided to show up.

I can actually stand behind my words. Can you?

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to catch the race at all, which meant missing out on witnessing that brilliant result from Renault. Still, I am genuinely pleased to see them pull it off. 🙏
All things considered, one really has to hand it to TBF for Vettel's masterful performance.

As for Alonso, he seemed to have quite a bit of luck on his side for most of last season, largely avoiding the usual chaos, but it appears the holiday spirit has shifted its favor from Hamilton over to him. Perhaps he'll lose his patience as well and join the ranks at Mercedes next year. 🤷

Are these descriptions actually objective? Is this some kind of petty demand that drivers should just pull over in certain situations? Could you ever imagine hearing anything like this during the eras of the late Ayrton Senna, Niki Lauda, or Alain Prost? Am I suddenly the one being biased here?😂
To quote Scrooge—as played by Patrick Stewart: "I'll retire to bedlam." Or, to put it in plain terms, I might as well check myself into a mental asylum.
Personally, I make every effort to approach every race with objectivity, though I admit my perspective is inevitably colored by my own loyalties.
So, has anyone in this thread actually bothered to answer my question? How was it possible for Fernando Alonso to beat Michael Schumacher in a significantly slower Renault, especially when considering he nearly snatched the championship last year in the clearly slower Ferrari?

stormybadger8 said:Not really. He was pulling those times consistently for about ten laps straight, and Kimi and di Resta weren't even on significantly older tires than he was.
He actually clocked faster times than Kimi. When Kimi pitted early—way sooner than expected just to jump di Resta—and came back out on fresh tires, that’s when he actually built up that massive gap over him...

So yeah, you're right, the analyst totally missed the mark there. Kimi honestly didn't have a realistic shot at fighting for the win... I actually think if they went with a three-stop strategy, he might have ended up behind Grosjean and di Resta anyway.
And I agree, given where they started on the grid, this was absolutely the absolute limit for Lotus.

To be perfectly honest, I wasn't obsessively tracking the Vettel-Kimi split because Kimi wasn't even battling him for position, so your take on the lap times could very well be accurate.
The reality is that they were on different strategies, so they had to drive differently. Clearly, both Kimi and di Resta were hitting "target times" just to make that two-stop tactic viable.
As for Kimi attempting a three-stop? That wouldn't have been a "maybe"—he almost certainly would have finished behind Grosjean and di Resta. Grosjean had two fresh sets of mediums left, which allowed him to hunt down and catch di Resta, eventually finishing about two seconds ahead of him.
Therefore, this specific tactic was the only way to pull off a result like this. Any other move would have likely seen them stuck in a scrap with Hamilton, Webber, Perez, Alonso, and Rosberg.

graniteharbor502 said:Sebastian Vettel is nothing short of a maestro, regardless of how much people try to downplay his brilliance. I find myself genuinely fearing a repeat of what we saw back in 2011. It truly feels like a misfortune for the rest of the grid, having to compete during his era; he has already cast such an immense shadow over his peers. Furthermore, it is quite disheartening to see so much bitterness being poured out here over the matter. Wouldn't it be easier for everyone to simply embrace this reality? The sooner you come to terms with it, the more enjoyable your experience following F1 will actually be.

this isn't even worth a Facebook Like.

Susan Alvarez94 said:Are these descriptions actually objective? Is this some kind of petty demand that drivers should just pull over in certain situations? Could you ever imagine hearing anything like this during the eras of the late Ayrton Senna, Niki Lauda, or Alain Prost? Am I suddenly the one being biased here?😂
To quote Scrooge—as played by Patrick Stewart: "I'll retire to bedlam." Or, to put it in plain terms, I might as well check myself into a mental asylum.
Personally, I make every effort to approach every race with objectivity, though I admit my perspective is inevitably colored by my own loyalties.
So, has anyone in this thread actually bothered to answer my question? How was it possible for Fernando Alonso to beat Michael Schumacher in a significantly slower Renault, especially when considering he nearly snatched the championship last year in the clearly slower Ferrari?

I have a feeling that back during the Niki Lauda and James Hunt era, they didn't really broadcast those direct radio conversations between the drivers and their pit crews during live TV coverage. I might be misremembering, though—it’s been quite a while, and my memory isn't exactly what it used to be!
When it comes to those "almost" championships, let’s be honest—they don't really carry much weight in the history books. It’s just not the same. Throughout racing history, we've seen plenty of legendary drivers who managed to actually clinch the title despite driving a significantly inferior car. Those are the true icons. Meanwhile, the ones who just barely missed out? They tend to fade into obscurity pretty quickly. No one really talks about them anymore.

Since when did the FIA start bugging the radio communications? If they had, certain drivers would have been exposed. That said, nobody can deny that the Red Bull racing machines have been the class of the field over the last three years. It essentially cheapens the prestige of winning a championship when the hardware is that dominant.
It reminds me of when the grandson of the former President took first place in the Formula Ford series driving a Ford. That doesn't mean he was the most complete driver in that category that year; it just means he was sitting in a car that was twice as fast as everyone else on the track.

Jerry Rogers6 said:this isn't even worth a Facebook Like.

What a compelling point you've made! But perhaps we might pivot slightly toward a little trivia question for the group: who would you say is currently the most decorated driver on the Formula 1 circuit?

Adrian Newey

Susan Alvarez94 said:Since when did the FIA start bugging the radio communications? If they had, certain drivers would have been exposed. That said, nobody can deny that the Red Bull racing machines have been the class of the field over the last three years. It essentially cheapens the prestige of winning a championship when the hardware is that dominant.
It reminds me of when the grandson of the former President took first place in the Formula Ford series driving a Ford. That doesn't mean he was the most complete driver in that category that year; it just means he was sitting in a car that was twice as fast as everyone else on the track.

Give me a break. How exactly does this diminish the championship title? Sure, maybe it takes a little bite out of the pride of the rival fanbases, but let’s get one thing straight: Formula 1 is a team sport. Period. To win a championship, you need every single component of the car to be flawless, and more importantly, you need every single person behind the scenes developing that machine to be on point. It isn't just about the driver; it's about the entire organization. If you don't get that, you don't get the trophy. Simple as that.
So, what exactly is Vettel supposed to say to Newey now? "Look, old man, stop wasting your time refining this car. Just crank up the speed so I can win some amateur dirt track race and have every single fan on the planet validate me as the 'real' champion." Please. Give me a break.
Ever since Formula 1 first kicked off, there’s been this endless, exhausting debate over who actually deserves the title of the greatest driver on the grid. It’s always the same tired arguments—people bickering about who’s a "real" champion and who just got lucky with a faster car. Honestly, it’s been happening since day one, and frankly, it's never going to change.
Look, let’s get one thing straight: the person who racks up the most points by the end of the season is the champion. Period. They earned it, they deserve the title, and their name gets etched into the history books. All that noise about "moral victories" and "what could have been"? It’s a joke. People talk about those things for a season or two, maybe, but then it all just evaporates. In the end, nobody gives a damn about the runner-up or the guy who played it clean but lost. History only remembers the winners and the champions. Everything else is just white noise.
Let’s get one thing straight: I am not some obsessive Vettel fanboy. Far from it. If I had to pick between him and Alonso, Alonso wins my vote every single time. But honestly? Watching this constant, relentless badgering of the kid is getting incredibly grating. It’s genuinely irritating to see people constantly picking at a guy who managed to clinch three consecutive world championships as the youngest driver ever to pull it off. Just let it go already.
Sure, in my opinion, they’ve got the fastest car on the grid right now. But let's be real—doesn't everyone start the season with the exact same theoretical opportunity to build a championship winner? It's all well and good to claim you've cracked the code, but we'll see how that holds up once the real pressure starts.
Honestly, comparing that Felicia Cup nonsense to Bembur is like trying to enter a Formula 1 car into a local go-kart race. It’s just fundamentally absurd.

steelmaker83 said:I can actually stand behind my words. Can you?

Good grief—stand behind my own biased, fanboyish take? Please. I value my own opinions just as much as yours. Not one bit 😁

I’m just not out here harassing anyone about Alonso. 🤣

shadowhawk24 said:Give me a break. How exactly does this diminish the championship title? Sure, maybe it takes a little bite out of the pride of the rival fanbases, but let’s get one thing straight: Formula 1 is a team sport. Period. To win a championship, you need every single component of the car to be flawless, and more importantly, you need every single person behind the scenes developing that machine to be on point. It isn't just about the driver; it's about the entire organization. If you don't get that, you don't get the trophy. Simple as that.
So, what exactly is Vettel supposed to say to Newey now? "Look, old man, stop wasting your time refining this car. Just crank up the speed so I can win some amateur dirt track race and have every single fan on the planet validate me as the 'real' champion." Please. Give me a break.
Ever since Formula 1 first kicked off, there’s been this endless, exhausting debate over who actually deserves the title of the greatest driver on the grid. It’s always the same tired arguments—people bickering about who’s a "real" champion and who just got lucky with a faster car. Honestly, it’s been happening since day one, and frankly, it's never going to change.
Look, let’s get one thing straight: the person who racks up the most points by the end of the season is the champion. Period. They earned it, they deserve the title, and their name gets etched into the history books. All that noise about "moral victories" and "what could have been"? It’s a joke. People talk about those things for a season or two, maybe, but then it all just evaporates. In the end, nobody gives a damn about the runner-up or the guy who played it clean but lost. History only remembers the winners and the champions. Everything else is just white noise.
Let’s get one thing straight: I am not some obsessive Vettel fanboy. Far from it. If I had to pick between him and Alonso, Alonso wins my vote every single time. But honestly? Watching this constant, relentless badgering of the kid is getting incredibly grating. It’s genuinely irritating to see people constantly picking at a guy who managed to clinch three consecutive world championships as the youngest driver ever to pull it off. Just let it go already.
Sure, in my opinion, they’ve got the fastest car on the grid right now. But let's be real—doesn't everyone start the season with the exact same theoretical opportunity to build a championship winner? It's all well and good to claim you've cracked the code, but we'll see how that holds up once the real pressure starts.
Honestly, comparing that Felicia Cup nonsense to Bembur is like trying to enter a Formula 1 car into a local go-kart race. It’s just fundamentally absurd.

Look, I'm not gonna quote the whole damn thing...

Sure, everyone gets a shot at designing a top-tier machine, but—and here's the kicker—not everyone actually gets to sit behind the wheel of one. That's the whole point.

Susan Alvarez94 said:Adrian Newey

Let us be perfectly clear: Adrian Newey is not a driver.
While it is true that every single driver on the grid is fundamentally dependent on the machine they command, one must realize that a championship title doesn't simply descend from the heavens onto someone's lap, does it? And certainly not three times in a row—though, if we are being honest, a fourth seems increasingly likely given the current trajectory.

The point of comparing a Formula 1 car to a NASCAR stock car isn't the machinery itself, but rather the specific circumstances surrounding their respective victories. Of course. However, I refuse to deify Vettel simply because he secured three consecutive championships. Winning titles doesn't inherently make him some incomparable icon. I am merely pointing out that there exists a subset of fanatics who cheer for Vettel by waving his championship count in people's faces, refusing to engage with any other logic. Why should I—or anyone else—be prevented from arguing that another driver might possess superior raw talent compared to Vettel? Is it possible the technical setup is so hyper-specific that if we swapped Alonso and Vettel into their current cars right now, neither would even sniff a podium finish? My contention is this: in the modern era, it has become nearly impossible to isolate an individual driver's skill from the performance of the machine they are piloting.
Furthermore, I maintain that the regulations have been repeatedly manipulated specifically to break up periods of dominance—first targeting Ferrari, and subsequently Red Bull. None of these interventions serve the integrity of the sport. If you don't have the capital to develop millions of dollars worth of engine components annually, you shouldn't be expected to contend for points in F1. The same applies to engine development and the various other technical arms races.