2013 United States Grand Prix (Las Vegas) - April 21st

shadowstag10 said:Look, I'm not gonna quote the whole damn thing...

Sure, everyone gets a shot at designing a top-tier machine, but—and here's the kicker—not everyone actually gets to sit behind the wheel of one. That's the whole point.

Hold on. Formula 1 is fundamentally a team sport. Everyone is the architect of their own fate here; in this context, every single team builds their car specifically for their own needs. They have to provide their drivers with high-quality machinery if they expect any actual results on the track.

In my view, Vettel was elite material—a winner through and through. He took what was in his hands and leveraged it to stack up those World Championships three years running. Are his titles somehow less significant than, say, Alonso's run at Renault? I highly doubt it.🙂

True, but my central point remains this: having the fastest car on the grid doesn't automatically mean you have the best driver behind the wheel. It’s a possibility, certainly, but is it a guarantee? Not necessarily.

Susan Alvarez94 said:The point of comparing a Formula 1 car to a NASCAR stock car isn't the machinery itself, but rather the specific circumstances surrounding their respective victories. Of course. However, I refuse to deify Vettel simply because he secured three consecutive championships. Winning titles doesn't inherently make him some incomparable icon. I am merely pointing out that there exists a subset of fanatics who cheer for Vettel by waving his championship count in people's faces, refusing to engage with any other logic. Why should I—or anyone else—be prevented from arguing that another driver might possess superior raw talent compared to Vettel? Is it possible the technical setup is so hyper-specific that if we swapped Alonso and Vettel into their current cars right now, neither would even sniff a podium finish? My contention is this: in the modern era, it has become nearly impossible to isolate an individual driver's skill from the performance of the machine they are piloting.
Furthermore, I maintain that the regulations have been repeatedly manipulated specifically to break up periods of dominance—first targeting Ferrari, and subsequently Red Bull. None of these interventions serve the integrity of the sport. If you don't have the capital to develop millions of dollars worth of engine components annually, you shouldn't be expected to contend for points in F1. The same applies to engine development and the various other technical arms races.

Look, I get what you were trying to say with that comparison, it just came out a bit sideways. 😉
I’m not playing advocate for one driver over the other. I am stating a fact: World Championships are all equal in the sense that they are earned. There are no "fake" or "real" champions; there is only the person standing on the top step at the end of the season. That person is the champion. Period.
I am not claiming Alonso is better or worse than Vettel, or vice versa. Championship titles don't actually prove who is faster or more talented; they are merely rewards for a perfectly synchronized package—a top-tier car paired with a driver capable of extracting every ounce of performance from it that season to secure the title.
Formula 1 is a sport where you can't strictly decouple the influence of the car from the influence of the driver. You can't look back and definitively say which driver carried the team or which car was carrying the driver, or which machine was dominant at any given moment while a driver's skill kept them at the front.
We try to analyze all of this through the lens of a teammate's performance, practice times, or qualifying splits, but we are talking about razor-thin margins. It’s incredibly difficult to judge, especially when you factor in the sheer amount of "fan objectivity" currently polluting the conversation.
Alonso and Vettel belong to that elite tier of drivers—along with a few others on the grid—who are ready to snatch a title the moment they are handed a competitive car. They are the drivers every single team in the paddock wants. As for which one of them is truly the best? We probably won't know until we put them all in identical machinery and let them race.

Susan Alvarez94 said:True, but my central point remains this: having the fastest car on the grid doesn't automatically mean you have the best driver behind the wheel. It’s a possibility, certainly, but is it a guarantee? Not necessarily.

Now, take someone like Jim Clark—who, if you ask me, stands alone as the greatest driver to ever grace the asphalt—he secured two championships while piloting a truly dominant machine. Yet, does that somehow diminish his legendary status? I think not. And one shouldn't forget Ayrton Senna, who also claimed all three of his titles during the era when McLaren held an absolute stranglehold on the sport.

nimblesurfer17 said:I think it might be time for me to step away from this subforum for a while..

I feel like I’m spending way too much energy—and honestly, losing my patience—trying to have a rational conversation with the Ferrari and Alonso fans here. It’s starting to feel less like a debate and more like a cult, which I think someone pointed out earlier today.. I do want to give a shout-out to the exceptions, though, like Amanda Kelly—she’s one of those rare users you can actually exchange logical arguments with, even when we don't see eye to eye on everything..

It just feels like there aren't enough people left who haven't been completely blinded by their favorite drivers or teams. It seems like most discussions have shifted toward nothing but blind worship of certain icons, usually accompanied by tearing down anyone else in their path..

Everyone needs to back off; Alonso is already pushing the red clock to its limit. They’re coming for Vettel with everything they've got because they’re terrified that Ferrari might actually prioritize him over the boss—though honestly, that wouldn't be the first time things went sideways in Maranello... They’re dragging Kimi through the mud just because they can't stomach his 2007 title or the fact that he outscored their "magnificent" double world champion during those three seasons when everything supposedly worked perfectly on Michelins...

Remember back in 2005 when he actually had the nerve to claim that he was going to overtake Schumacher in the win column... what an absolute joke... 🙏

And these guys are still obsessing over some driver who finished "only" 8th. Like, give it a rest already.

Susan Alvarez94 said:Are these descriptions actually objective? Is this some kind of petty demand that drivers should just pull over in certain situations? Could you ever imagine hearing anything like this during the eras of the late Ayrton Senna, Niki Lauda, or Alain Prost? Am I suddenly the one being biased here?😂
To quote Scrooge—as played by Patrick Stewart: "I'll retire to bedlam." Or, to put it in plain terms, I might as well check myself into a mental asylum.
Personally, I make every effort to approach every race with objectivity, though I admit my perspective is inevitably colored by my own loyalties.
So, has anyone in this thread actually bothered to answer my question? How was it possible for Fernando Alonso to beat Michael Schumacher in a significantly slower Renault, especially when considering he nearly snatched the championship last year in the clearly slower Ferrari?

Oh sure, because listening to team radio for an entire race used to be perfectly fine, right?😁 🤣

Also, it’s funny how you didn't catch the maestro whining and complaining about Perez... really interesting how that part goes unheard, yet Button gets labeled a huge brat just for questioning that same driver's behavior...
Objectivity doesn't exist here, clearly.👍

graniteharbor502 said:Now, take someone like Jim Clark—who, if you ask me, stands alone as the greatest driver to ever grace the asphalt—he secured two championships while piloting a truly dominant machine. Yet, does that somehow diminish his legendary status? I think not. And one shouldn't forget Ayrton Senna, who also claimed all three of his titles during the era when McLaren held an absolute stranglehold on the sport.

And at least one or two guys missed out on titles simply because their cars were made of glass.

Susan Alvarez94 said:The point of comparing a Formula 1 car to a NASCAR stock car isn't the machinery itself, but rather the specific circumstances surrounding their respective victories. Of course. However, I refuse to deify Vettel simply because he secured three consecutive championships. Winning titles doesn't inherently make him some incomparable icon. I am merely pointing out that there exists a subset of fanatics who cheer for Vettel by waving his championship count in people's faces, refusing to engage with any other logic. Why should I—or anyone else—be prevented from arguing that another driver might possess superior raw talent compared to Vettel? Is it possible the technical setup is so hyper-specific that if we swapped Alonso and Vettel into their current cars right now, neither would even sniff a podium finish? My contention is this: in the modern era, it has become nearly impossible to isolate an individual driver's skill from the performance of the machine they are piloting.
Furthermore, I maintain that the regulations have been repeatedly manipulated specifically to break up periods of dominance—first targeting Ferrari, and subsequently Red Bull. None of these interventions serve the integrity of the sport. If you don't have the capital to develop millions of dollars worth of engine components annually, you shouldn't be expected to contend for points in F1. The same applies to engine development and the various other technical arms races.

Look, the reality is that people win three titles in a row all the time.🤣

Argue whatever you want, but I'm convinced that in that Red Bull, nobody besides maybe Alonso, Kimi, or Hamilton would have pulled off those three titles. And honestly? Even then, who knows if they'd get all three... maybe they'd only grab one.
The rest might have grabbed that 2011 one, but even that's a huge question mark when you consider they'd be fighting Webber. Who knows? Maybe they'd just end up with a pile of crashes, engine failures, blown tires, and whatever else.
Dammit, McLaren had an insanely fast car last year with two top-tier drivers and they walked away with absolutely nothing.☕

If you want proof of how much Red Bull dominated, just look at how their drivers finished their seasons:
2009 - 2nd and 4th
2010 - 1st and 3rd
2011 - 1st and 3rd
2012 - 1st and 6th

A truly dominant car finishes the season with a 1-2 finish. Red Bull hasn't actually managed that yet.☕
It's hard to tell if the results come from the car or the driver, but these "ultra-dominant" cars usually cruise to a 1-2 finish without breaking a sweat—and they don't even have to deal with second-tier drivers like Barrichello.☕

In recent history over the last decade, only the slightly dominant Ferrari teams in 2002 and 2004 actually crushed it with a 1-2 championship finish because that car was just a beast...
The closest anyone got to a tight 1-2 was McLaren in 2007, not Red Bull.😉

The others that came close were Red Bull in 2011, Red Bull in 2010, and Brawn in 2009, but none of them were anywhere near as close to that achievement as McLaren was in 2007.☕
Sure, that was obviously down to the drivers, but in the case of Red Bull and Brawn, it was all the car... yeah, right.👍

Picking the driver is a total no-brainer, unless you count the Lotus guys. Here’s my take:

1. Vettel
2. Grosjean
3. Kimi

You really should've thrown Hamilton and Alonso in there too.😉
Both of them drove an absolute masterclass today.👍
Plus, you can't leave out Perez, Piastri, and di Resta—they definitely earned a mention.🙂

Exactly.

It’s not just that the RB6 wasn't dominant; the RB7 wasn't anything special either.

Really. ☕

Besides, what happens when you put an average driver in a championship car? We saw it back in '09.
Same story from the season before, when Felipe Massa was separated from the title by mere hundreds of yards.
I mean, Felipe Massa.

graniteharbor502 said:What a compelling point you've made! But perhaps we might pivot slightly toward a little trivia question for the group: who would you say is currently the most decorated driver on the Formula 1 circuit?

Where exactly was this "most decorated" driver during the first half of last season—you know, back when everyone else was struggling with garbage cars too? And how did that first half of the season actually pan out?

And just for fun—throw Kimi instead of Max into the mix and let him chase Lewis around; I'd love to see how long he lasts before Lewis leaves him in the dust.

Jerry Rogers6 said:Where exactly was this "most decorated" driver during the first half of last season—you know, back when everyone else was struggling with garbage cars too? And how did that first half of the season actually pan out?

And just for fun—throw Kimi instead of Max into the mix and let him chase Lewis around; I'd love to see how long he lasts before Lewis leaves him in the dust.

Oh, almost forgot—Webber is stuck driving a rebranded STR again instead of an RB...
Seriously, why isn't the lucky guy in the STR actually scoring points if he's in the same car Webber should be in?🙄

And where was Vettel at the start of last season? Right there with Alonso, just like now.☕
Real question for Jerry Rogers6: how many races at the start of last season was Webber actually better than Vettel, only for them both to finish empty-handed?

The race was awesome, but I don't think anyone caught that little jab from Red Bull... they actually sent his wife out there to claim the trophy. Man, watching that poor guy try to hand her the cup without making things awkward by shaking hands... it was hilarious because he clearly didn't want to cause a scene by outing her to the cameras... 😂

Jerry Rogers6 said:Where exactly was this "most decorated" driver during the first half of last season—you know, back when everyone else was struggling with garbage cars too? And how did that first half of the season actually pan out?

And just for fun—throw Kimi instead of Max into the mix and let him chase Lewis around; I'd love to see how long he lasts before Lewis leaves him in the dust.

Short and sweet. 🙂

When people start questioning a driver's actual talent this much—after all those broken records and massive wins—it suggests there’s more going on than just "fan bias."
I mean, these kinds of debates aren't exactly exclusive to an American message board.

Where there's this much smoke, there's usually a hell of a fire.

Squeak, squeak... we seriously need to fix those little issues! 👍

🤣

redheron12 said:Good grief—stand behind my own biased, fanboyish take? Please. I value my own opinions just as much as yours. Not one bit 😁

I’m just not out here harassing anyone about Alonso. 🤣

How can I not? Your trolling regarding Fernando Alonso and Ferrari is just as "productive" as anything coming from the other side...

Except it's obvious to me that all you McLaren fans are having a massive identity crisis right now. Your prince ran away and left an empty stable, leaving nothing behind but......

Jason Campbell70 said:Short and sweet. 🙂

When people start questioning a driver's actual talent this much—after all those broken records and massive wins—it suggests there’s more going on than just "fan bias."
I mean, these kinds of debates aren't exactly exclusive to an American message board.

Where there's this much smoke, there's usually a hell of a fire.

Oh, absolutely. Just like how they were questioning the talent of Fernando Alonso, Kimi Räikkönen, and Mika Häkkinen a few years back from that same group of people. 🤣
If there's smoke, there's a huge fire. 😁
Pure objectivity right here. 👍

stormybadger8 said:Oh, absolutely. Just like how they were questioning the talent of Fernando Alonso, Kimi Räikkönen, and Mika Häkkinen a few years back from that same group of people. 🤣
If there's smoke, there's a huge fire. 😁
Pure objectivity right here. 👍

"The McLaren 2007 Quote : The Best F1 driver was more dominant than the Red Bull RB 2011."

So much for "objectivity." 👍