F1 Italian GP - Monza (Sept 2, 2018)

crimsonhawk23 said:Not quite.

Yes.

crimsonhawk23 said:The penalty against Max Verstappen is nonsense.

It’s actually strange that he didn't receive a harsher penalty.

crimsonhawk23 said:An imaginary turn.

Is hitting Bottas just an imaginary move?

When any part of a trailing car gets wedged between the track edge and the car ahead, it’s no longer side-by-side racing. The ability to actually close the gap is gone. Is that even racing anymore?

crimsonhawk23 said:Here we go again: https://streamable.com/dw4co

Exactly.

It’s perfectly obvious: despite everything else, Max Verstappen still veers left and slams into Valtteri Bottas.

Today’s race was a perfect example of just how disorganized Ferrari is when it comes to managing their drivers. I mean, they secure a 1-2 formation right after the start, and I honestly cannot wrap my head around why Vettel decided to hunt down Kimi instead of focusing on covering Hamilton first. That failed attempt to overtake Kimi is exactly what triggered the collision between Vettel and Hamilton. In my opinion, it was a completely reckless and brainless move on Vettel's part. You have to think about it—your teammate is leading the pack, and you have the entire race ahead of you to make your move. It’s these kinds of mistakes, combined with taking unnecessary risks in situations where they don't need to, that are going to hand the championship over to Mercedes-AMG on a silver platter. It feels like Ferrari lacks the backbone to look Kimi in the eye and say, "Look, you're the Number 2 driver now," especially since he's trailing by such a huge margin in the points. Instead, they just seem to hope they can somehow nudge Vettel ahead through the pit lane every single time. Even Mercedes openly uses those old-school tactics reminiscent of the Michael Schumacher era by utilizing a designated second driver. It’s such a shame; if they had put someone like Valtteri Bottas in that spot instead, and if Kimi were a bit more competitive, we might actually be seeing four drivers battling it out for the title.

coastalwolf6 said:Yeah.

Funny.

coastalwolf6 said:So, is hitting Bottas just some imaginary move? I guess—maybe.

It looks like Bottas ran into Max Verstappen.

coastalwolf6 said:If any part of a car—especially the one trailing—gets wedged between the track edge and the car ahead, it’s basically side-by-side at that point. The actual overtaking opportunity... well, it just disappears.

I wonder why Romain Grosjean didn't get penalized there for cutting off Carlos Sainz—he basically steered right into him. I wonder why Perez wasn't penalized today for squeezing—and essentially wrecking—Magnussen. Then again, why wasn't Magnussen punished at the Silverstone Circuit for doing the exact same thing to Alonso? It seems like nobody else has faced any consequences this season, aside from Max Verstappen today.

You seem to be making up rules as you go—since the official regulations actually state there are no closures on... More than a full car width—I guess.You missed a key detail there—Max actually gave Bottas the full width of the car. Bottas was well within the track limits, maybe even staying quite far from them, I guess.

coastalwolf6 said:It seems perfectly clear—despite everything else going on—that Max Verstappen still veers left and clips Valtteri Bottas.

That’s just not how it works. If you look at Bottas's steering before the contact, it's pretty obvious he's turning right into Max Verstappen—I guess.

crimsonhawk23 said:Bottas hit Max Verstappen.

That’s just not how it went down—not even close. If you look at Bottas's steering input right before they touch, it’s super obvious he’s turning straight into Max:
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Anyway, here's another one for the ignore list... bye-bye!

crimsonhawk23 said:

Right at the start of the video, Vettel's already complaining that he got squeezed! 🤣 Someone nearly shoved Lewis Hamilton off the track, but honestly, he was just getting squeezed. 😬

Let’s be real: if Hamilton had acted like a total jerk in this situation too—though, God help Vettel, he probably would've gotten lucky doing it—well, you know what they say about fortune favoring the bold.
Let's be real: contact was inevitable the second Lujo decided to dive in like a total maniac from the outside. It was obvious. We all knew Vettel would act like the stubborn prick he is and wouldn't budge an inch.
At the end of the day, when you get contact like that, about 70% of the time the guy on the outside gets screwed. He’s the one who ends up spinning off the track.
Look, Hamilton's move was obvious. He jumped into that duel knowing full well it was only a matter of time before they collided.

Honestly, there's a massive difference here: Hamilton could actually afford a DNF given his points lead, but Vettel? He definitely couldn't.
Lewis Hamilton knew exactly what he was doing. Even if he spins out and ends up sliding down the order, he knows he can claw his way back to third before the checkered flag without breaking much of a sweat. He’s counting on everyone else—including Red Bull Racing—to just mess it up, and if things get messy, he knows Valtteri Bottas will just pull over and make it easy.
Honestly, Vettel’s little stunt was even stupider than Hamilton’s. At least what Lujo did actually made some sense. What Vettel pulled? That was just pure, unadulterated idiocy. 🤦
Lujo wasn't exactly playing chess there. He got lucky, because that move could have easily ended just like his DNF and Vettel's win.
Honestly, the only thing is he got lucky, so everything ended up working out better than expected for him.
Honestly, this could’ve ended in an absolute disaster for him. We're lucky he just got a DNF. It could've easily gone south where someone behind him picks him up after a spin, totally wrecking his chassis and blowing out the engine for good.
And then all hell would break loose... naturally, he and Toto Wolff would start whining about how Ferrari is cheating and intentionally ramming their car.

The title fight isn't officially over, but it's damn close. Realistically, if everything goes according to plan and nobody hits a wall or suffers a DNF, Vettel only has 49 points left on the table—that's 7 races times 7 points. Meanwhile, Lujo's holding a 30-point lead. It's looking tight.
Forty-nine points? Please. In any actual racing conditions, Bottas wouldn't even be in the same zip code as Vettel, and Kimi wouldn't even be able to annoy Hamilton, let alone keep him busy for a lap or two. 🤦
So, in any actual decent race, the finish is basically going to be a toss-up between Vettel and Hamilton taking the top two spots. It’ll either be Vettel in first and Hamilton second, or vice versa. That's just how it plays out.
Anything else would just be a total anomaly—and a massive one at that. Honestly, expecting a DNF from a Mercedes-AMG this reliable is just plain naive.
Look, the math is pretty brutal. If Vettel wants that championship, he basically needs to win six out of the next seven races. And even in that seventh one, he’s got to finish at least third. If Hamilton grabs just two more wins and cruises to second place for the rest, the title is his. Simple as that.
With the gap between Mercedes-AMG and the rest of the grid this massive—especially since they’ve got Valtteri Bottas as the Number 2 driver and Kimi Räikkönen struggling—it's basically a cakewalk for Lewis Hamilton.

There’s also that massive gap in dynamic: Hamilton has Bottas, a loyal Number 2 who’ll happily wreck his own qualifying or race just to play backup for Lujo. Meanwhile, Vettel gets zero benefit from Kimi; the only "advantage" is the occasional mess where Kimi ends up starting ahead or getting in the way during the race. But hey, it's Ferrari—they never have a clue how to handle these situations, so they just let Vettel spiral into a total nervous breakdown. 🤦 And look at that pile of mistakes on his part...
It’s obvious that it’s a loss for Vettel because he didn't stay calmer in those moments, but honestly, it’s an even bigger failure for Ferrari. They clearly have zero pre-planned strategy or hierarchy for these situations; they just look completely lost every single time things get messy...
That stuff should be decided beforehand, instead of having Kimi and Vettel messing around at the start and then dealing with the fallout later. Seriously, all those starting mishaps where they bled points came from their own duels, which shouldn't have even happened in the first place...

All this talk about "equality" and whatever is great, but what were those kids doing in qualifying? That ridiculous idea of Vettel pulling a slipstream for Kimi—even they probably didn't get why they did it...
It doesn't matter now if it worked or why Kimi started ahead; the point is they lined up like that, and the only logic was trying to slot Kimi in front of Vettel...
And that would actually make sense if there was some master plan for the start, like, "Let's put Kimi ahead of Hamilton so he can hold him up while Vettel breaks away"...
But since there obviously wasn't a plan for the start, the whole weekend—starting from Q3—was just pure strategic insanity...

Worst of all, Kimi proved that even in much better form than before, he’s still clearly the Number 2 driver. And right from the first race of the season, too. He’s being the Number 2 driver in the exact same way Bottas played this race—just blocking Hamilton on track by not pitting on time, because unfortunately, nothing else works when it comes to him...

Seriously, if he can't keep Hamilton behind him during a direct fight for a win at Indianapolis, how can anyone expect him to hold him off in 3rd, 4th, or 5th place when it's about stealing points from Hamilton for Vettel?🤔

And then they’re supposed to be equals, supposedly giving Kimi a shot at the WDC 🙄
I have no clue how he’d ever win a title if he can't even keep Hamilton behind him 🤔
I mean, anything is possible, miracles happen and blah blah, but seriously, with a reliable Mercedes like that, you aren't winning a championship if you can't beat their driver and keep him behind you in a head-to-head fight. You won't win it that way even if you're crazy...

It’s just weird. Seriously weird how much faster Mercedes was than Ferrari during the race. 🤔
https://www.formula1.com/en/results....test-laps.html

I put Vettel on the FL list because honestly, looking at his race, the strategy, the tires, and how he was chasing down Max at the end, there was no way he wouldn't have one...
But nope, nothing. So I went to see which kid 😵
Damn it, Vettel has no FL, even though his fastest lap was two laps before the end—meaning he had a totally empty tank and was basically on life support...😲

Meanwhile, Hamilton's was set in lap 30 on softs. That's 21 laps before Vettel and on slower tires too!
To make matters worse, comparing Kimi's lap on softs—done with roughly the same car weight and the same tires—it's over a second slower than Hamilton's...😲
So, while fighting for the win and trying to hold onto the lead after the pits, Hamilton pulls an FL that's a full second faster than Kimi's😵

Now, either Ferrari completely botched their setup on the softs, or Mercedes still has a massive raw pace advantage in race trim. It's just that Ferrari seems to have a much better qualifying mode, which is why they can actually beat them in qualifying.🤔

Just strange. Really strange...
Mercedes looked like the faster car in the race to me. I wasn't even sure if Vettel could have caught Hamilton even if he'd managed to stay ahead of him in the first lap, but he definitely didn't look like a car that was a whole second faster than Ferrari...
Yet Kimi's and Hamilton's FLs prove exactly that, because at the end of the day, it's a direct comparison of two cars at nearly the same weight, on the same tires, at the same time, all while flat out fighting for positions...

.

darkmarlin16 said:.

What an absolute disaster for Ferrari...

It's pretty interesting—since Bottas couldn't find a way past Max Verstappen during that first stint, it actually helped Lujo pull ahead of Kimi Räikkönen a bit earlier. He didn't pull enough gap to keep Kimi from catching him before the pit stop, otherwise he would have, though even if that hadn't happened, he probably would've just been overtaken three or four laps later than he was anyway.

First off:

stormybadger8 said:Man, you guys are being so naive🤣
This is just a totally Vettel-esque tactical play, and honestly, a pretty brilliant one at that 🙏
It’s basically killing three birds with one stone 🙂
1. He gets the jump on Lewis Hamilton, but he's right there next to him...
2. Kimi starts right in front of Lewis Hamilton, and well, we all know how Kimi starts...
3. Kimi is signing that new contract with Ferrari tonight 🙂
The race is clearly going to wrap up with Vettel, Kimi, and Hamilton in the top spots ☕

And then there's this:

stormybadger8 said:Yeah, it's all lovely and wonderful with this whole idea of equality and blah blah blah, but I mean, what were those kids even thinking during qualifying with that ridiculous nonsense about Vettel working on the slipstream for Kimi? I guess they don't really get it either...

😬

So, there was maybe three—three and a half seconds, I guess, separating Kimi and Sebastian in that Q3 lap. Just wondering, for you and the rest of the experts out there: what kind of fluid dynamics formula did you use to decide that such a gap would somehow create enough negative drag to give Kimi a better aero setup?

Gerald Patel said:Today's race really highlighted how sloppy Ferrari is when it comes to managing their drivers. They hold a 1-2 position right after the start, so why on earth would Sebastian attempt to overtake Kimi instead of focusing on keeping Lewis Hamilton at bay? That failed move on Kimi is exactly what caused the collision between Sebastian and Lewis Hamilton. Honestly, it was a completely reckless and foolish move by Sebastian. I mean, your teammate is leading the race and you have the entire duration to make your move. It’s mistakes like this—taking unnecessary risks in situations where they aren't needed—that will hand the championship over to Mercedes-Benz. It’s like Ferrari lacks the guts to clearly tell Kimi, "Look, you're the number two driver." Instead, they seem to hope they can just push Sebastian ahead through the pits whenever it suits them. Even Mercedes-Benz openly uses tactics reminiscent of the Michael Schumacher era with a second driver. It’s a shame they don't have someone like Valtteri Bottas or Kimi, who are both top-tier talents, so we could actually see four drivers fighting for the title.

I think it’s just a disconnect between ego and common sense.
It's a sort of amateur version of Max Verstappen.

As for Ferkan and the team orders, I don't think they have those classic rules like back in the Schumacher days. There's probably some loophole that gives Kimi a chance to fight back, and he's more than happy to take it, regardless of the supposed "harmony" between him and Sebastian. I can't help but feel that Kimi sometimes holds himself back just a little bit.

crimsonhawk23 said:And honestly, Magnussen is useless. He completely blew it today during that disaster with Perez 🤦 plus Alonso dominated him again, just like he did in qualifying yesterday 🤣 Stroll will probably become WDC before Haas F1 Team ever wins a single GP. I'm 100% sure of it.

What braking zone deviation? 🤔 When did that even happen today (unless we're talking about what was in the stewards' heads)?

I’m asking you in good faith to take another look at the incident. Don't forget that the stewards aren't always consistent and there aren't clear criteria. Why am I mentioning this? Because as long as things stay this way, any officiating decision can be challenged by someone bringing up the past. Every incident needs to be viewed on its own merits. And in this case, Max Verstappen definitely overstepped.

Ultimately, Max Verstappen only hurt himself. Like I said before, if he keeps thinking this way, he'll never become a champion. Look at Sebastian Vettel right now—despite having a dominant car and being able to win the championship easily, he's sitting right where he is. It leaves me hopeful that things might still swing in favor of the Meckin side.

I still don't quite get why some of those cars—the ones Sebastian Vettel was catching right before the turn—didn't even try to defend, they just let him sail right past. I mean, I get it if he caught them mid-corner, but those Force India guys didn't even put up a fight... like when he overtook them, if Perez had actually tried to hold his line (or whoever it was), he probably would have slammed straight into him. That would’ve been a dream scenario for Mercedes and all the Kimi fans 😁 + maybe even a penalty for Sebastian Vettel...

Not sure if anyone else caught this

https://twitter.com/AldonaMarciniak/...41642209062912

https://twitter.com/OfficialMinis/st...22544599613441

Obviously there was zero chance of Ferrari getting penalized at Monza—those judges are something else...

neonfox65 said:I'm not sure if anyone else caught this--

https://twitter.com/AldonaMarciniak/...41642209062912

https://twitter.com/OfficialMinis/st...22544599613441

There's absolutely no way they're penalizing Ferrari at Monza—those officials are clearly looking the other way.

Of course... they'll hand out a fine instead of anything serious... but hey, that's just how things go with Ferrari...

This is definitely a penalty situation... though I’d argue the team should be the ones held accountable—it seems fundamentally unfair for a driver (regardless of who is behind the wheel in this scenario) to take the hit just because some idiots on the pit wall turned the light green too early.

Gary Palmer8 said:I’m still scratching my head over this one—I honestly don't get why some of those cars that Sebastian Vettel was closing in on right at the last second just didn't defend their position. They just let him sail right past like nothing happened. I totally get it if he caught them mid-corner, but those Force India guys didn't even attempt to block him... for instance, when Sebastian made that move, if Sergio Perez (or whoever was actually there) had tried to hold his line, he probably would have slammed straight into him. That would've been a beautiful sight for the Mercedes fans and the Kimi superfans 😁 plus maybe even a penalty for Sebastian...

So, look, maybe it was just in Sergio Perez's best interest to grab whatever points he could get, especially since he's not exactly going to be challenging Ferrari or Mercedes at Indianapolis 🕺

Or honestly, they should just start putting Mercedes' third, fourth, fifth, and sixth drivers into the FIA and Williams seats instead

Brandon Evans5 said:Well, I guess it might be in Sergio Perez's best interest to grab some points for himself—especially since he can't really hold much ground against Ferrari or Mercedes at Monza. 🕺

Or maybe they should just start putting their third, fourth, fifth, and sixth drivers in Mercedes and Williams during FIA races.

I don't see how this has anything to do with Mercedes? By that logic, they should have just let Kimi Räikkönen take over from Lewis Hamilton right away since he didn't stand a chance! Sometimes you fight for a position—even against a faster car—but I guess that's all ancient history now. It's honestly pretty funny that some people actually agree with this.

Gary Palmer8 said:What does this even have to do with Mercedes? Following your logic, they should have just let Kimi pass Lewis immediately since he didn't stand a chance, right? There were times when drivers actually fought for position, even against faster cars, but nowadays that seems to be a thing of the past. It’s honestly pretty ridiculous how some people just accept this as normal.

The thing is, we haven't really seen a situation lately where four cars pull that much distance away from the rest of the pack, leaving only Red Bull to even attempt a challenge (and even then, only on certain tracks).
If you take a real look at how Mercedes and Ferrari are lapping Renault—who were practically promising podium finishes earlier on—it looks like they're just cruising past a Minardi.
I'm not saying I approve of the lack of fighting, but you have to understand that the slower teams aren't exactly itching for a wheel-to-wheel battle when they're facing cars that are consistently dropping 0.5 to 1 full second per lap on them. Especially on a circuit that heavily favors raw pace; if we were talking about Singapore, for example, the whole dynamic would be completely different.

Nicholas Newman2 said:Look, I’m just trying to be helpful here—please take another look at the incident. Don't forget that stewards aren't always consistent, and there aren't really any clear-cut criteria. The reason I mention that is because as long as things stay this way, any decision can be picked apart by comparing it to something from the past. Every incident probably needs to be viewed in isolation. And in this case, Max definitely overstepped.

Look, objectively speaking, I agree that what happened between Max and Valtteri Bottas warranted a penalty. But I still maintain that the penalty itself feels silly and undeserved, mostly because the enforcement seems so selective. Why don't the same rules apply to everyone? Okay, the bolded part is true—stewards really aren't always consistent—so maybe we could just ignore all the previous races this season where this wasn't penalized (like that bit with Fernando Alonso and Kevin Magnussen at Silverstone). But why didn't the same stewards who later penalized Max even blink during those moments?



Sergio Perez went into Kevin Magnussen, who was actually the faster driver. Honestly, he practically rammed him and pushed him off track 🤷 So why wasn't Marcus Ericsson penalized earlier for turning right into Brendon Hartley's Toro Rosso and puncturing his tire? It seems like it only matters for yesterday's race. Same thing later on (around lap 28, if I recall correctly), when Nico Hulkenberg did the exact same thing to Pierre Gasly twice in a single lap—just like he did to Max Verstappen and Valtteri Bottas. And again, no penalty 🤷

As long as the stewards mostly (I don't think anyone else has been hit for this all season besides Max yesterday) don't start penalizing those kinds of moves, these selective penalties seem pretty ridiculous and unjustified to me, even if they would be perfectly valid in some utopian scenario where the stewards actually do their jobs properly . Especially since Valtteri was clearly within the track limits. The official rules state you can move into another car's line while braking, provided you leave enough space—the width of one car. Bottas stayed on track and had that necessary width 🤷 whereas Kevin Magnussen was off track after being hit by Sergio Perez 🤷

Nicholas Newman2 said:Ultimately, Max is mostly just hurting himself. Like I said before, if he keeps thinking this way, he’s never going to be a champion. A perfect example right now is Sebastian Vettel—despite having a dominant car and the fact that he should easily win the championship, he’s sitting exactly where he is in the standings, which leaves me hoping things might somehow swing back toward Mercedes.

Heh, regarding Sebastian Vettel—I saw a stat yesterday showing he lost his front wing in the first lap of Canada 2017. That means in 28 races, he lost it in the opening lap five times. Five times in turn one... basically 18% of his starts. 😬

Anyway, yeah, what you wrote is correct 👍

edit : evo, I went through the full season report. No one besides Max was penalized for situations like yesterday's 🕺 But Sergey Sirotkin got a pretty ridiculous penalty in France: "Note - Sirotkin Had 5 seconds added to his raca time for driving unnecessarily slowly behind The Safety Car." 😬