Die-hard Ultras / Hardcore Supporters

I hear what you're getting at, but I honestly don't see how you can miss the bigger picture here; when someone opens up the news after a game like this, all they're seeing is some delusional fan wearing a crown, acting like a total moron for tossing a flare, nothing more than the usual chaos in the minor leagues, and our stadium being compared to an old, crumbling theater—so tell me, what have we actually gained from all of this?

Jose Kern11 said:Look, nobody wants to see us getting banned from European competition—not under this current management, anyway. If we had guys like, I don't know, Jerry Jones or some actual legends running the show and cleaning up this mess they've made, I’d personally be down to shove five flares right into a UEFA official's face. You clearly don't get it—this national team doesn't have anything "American" about it besides the players on the field. And half those kids will be global brands like Brand and the rest of them in ten years (props to Stanić and Boban, though). I couldn't care less what some random guy from rural Ohio thinks or some dude from a tiny town in Nebraska who showed up to a game for the first time since '99. Why should we behave just to please them? They'll just whistle at the fans anyway. Honestly, I think most sane people can't even bring themselves to cheer for this national team the way we actually want to. It's like trying to root for Dinamo. We need to change things regardless of how the media sees it, instead of showing up to games acting like everything is fine. If they had kicked Dinamo out of Europe a few years ago, that owner would've been gone by now, believe me. But instead, after all the scandals, he's still out there celebrating massive wins with a band playing (suddenly everyone's worried about "regional leagues" or "fan behavior" when it suits him).

It’s all about choosing to fight the mafia. I'm positive that if the owner had gotten Dinamo banned, he would've profited from us being sidelined, making it even harder to get rid of him. It's the exact same deal with Šuker and Štimac.

Jose Kern11 said:I get what you're trying to say, but I don't get how you can't see that when someone picks up the paper after this game or scrolls through news sites, all they see is some hero-worshipping nonsense about the guy with the crown, some idiot throwing a flare, just more excuses for keeping the regional league mediocre, and comparing our home stadium to Old Trafford—it's basically a theater production. So, tell me, what have we actually achieved with all that?

Look, we’re venting here because it sucks when people talk trash, and yeah, maybe we're getting a little worked up because the media keeps praising that guy. But honestly, I couldn't care less about him or those other suits at the top; nobody showed up to that game for them. I wasn't even bringing up that match to debate whether flares should be lit or not; I was just saying I wish there had been ten times the crowd instead of just a few dozen people, and instead of one lone flare, there would have been dozens of them.
You were the one who said the Raiders did the right thing by staying chill during that high-stakes game where everyone was on edge, and that's exactly my point: it was a smart move and the only way to handle it.
I've always been pro-flare and anti-restraint, but I'll be real with you: I was actually rooting for things to go south against Ludwig so that a club like that would get kicked out. To me, that would've been a necessary step toward finally pushing out the management, once every other way of fighting back had been exhausted.

neonraven112 said:It really comes down to making a choice in the fight against the mafia. I am convinced that if Mamić managed to push the club away from us, he would end up profiting even more, which would make his exit even harder. It’s the exact same situation with Šuker and Štimac.

It is one hundred percent true, isn't it? But how exactly would he profit? Well, he only profits through cold, hard cash. How could he sell off a young talent for $15 million without two years of playing in the Champions League? Or how could he sell someone like Lovren for $8 million when the kid doesn't even know where he stands on the pitch, and his only reference point is looking good in photos? How could anyone from our domestic league be sold for those kinds of sums with contracts where he pockets 20% or more in commissions? If the club were to return after, say, three years of missing out on European competition and threaten him by saying, "Hey, if you stay, we won't play in Europe for another five years," then we would truly see how he tries to profit. Honestly, the biggest panic in the world was when that guy from Austria threatened to shut down a match in Europe, and even the media up north were all over it, writing about it constantly.

Just look at what happened in a city like Miami for comparison. I mean, pretty much every single sport there has been completely gutted—they are basically dead, except for the Kansas City Chiefs, whom the fans have fought tooth and nail to keep alive. One of the things they did was rally together right before the local government stepped in to shut things down. If people hadn't stood their ground and demanded a vote back then, things would have gone south incredibly fast, and the public can perceive the outcome however they want. If someone had walked into that basketball club and stood up to those guys, they would surely be back in the top tier today. If people had challenged the leadership in water polo or handball, those wouldn't be dying sports right now. Take my own sport, table tennis, as an example; this total chaos-maker was absolutely ruining the game by trying to set his own son up as a coach in the city, even though the kid hasn't the slightest clue about life, let alone table tennis, which is such a technically complex sport that you actually need to know what you're doing. And then, once when I was playing for another club, Ola and a few others showed up just to mess around, and this troublemaker comes over and tells them to quiet down or get out because he can't stand them. They just told him they'd take him out if he didn't watch it, and when he tried to speak up one more time, he just slunk away like a beaten dog; he’s such a coward. Yet, he continues to ruin the sport for hundreds of kids over the next twenty years.

Jose Kern11 said:I get where you're coming from, but I don't get how you can't see the bigger picture. When someone picks up a newspaper or scrolls through news sites after a game like this, all they see is some hero-worshipping fan with a crown, some idiot throwing a flare, just more "standard" chaos in the regional league, and our stadium being compared to Old Trafford—it’s a theater production. So tell me, what have we actually gained from that?

And that is exactly the point. To your average commentator, journalist, or even the cops, one flare thrown by a thousand fans is seen as hooliganism—a stupid tumor that needs to be cut out. But if you have twenty die-hard fans showing up with two hundred flares? That’s pure power and presence that everyone is forced to respect.
Think back to when the General arrived at the plaza; those hundreds of flares meant euphoria, an incredible atmosphere, and a welcome nobody will ever forget. If there had been fewer people there, fewer fans, and just a handful of flares... it would have been labeled as "unwanted scenes," a violation of the law, or "inappropriate behavior." And you bet your life the police would have come charging in to haul us away. ☕

Jose Kern11 said:Yeah, 100%. How exactly is he "profiting"? The guy only cares about the cash. Like, how's he gonna sell a young talent for 15 million if they haven't played in the Champions League for two years? Or take some kid from the local leagues for 8 million when the kid doesn't even know where he is on the pitch—his only real skill is looking good in a jersey? How does anyone from the domestic league get those kinds of numbers or contracts where he's pocketing 20% or more just for showing up??? If a big club like Atlanta United suddenly sat out of European competition for three years and threatened to stay away again if certain management stayed in charge, then people would see what "profit" really looks like. Honestly, the biggest panic attack I've ever seen was when that guy from Austria threatened to shut down a European match—even the news outlets up north were all over it.

Look at the mess in a city like Miami for example. Every single sport there is basically gutted, totally dead, except maybe for the Kansas City Chiefs because the fans refuse to let them die. And one of the main reasons things didn't fall apart completely back in the day was because people actually stood up against the administration during those chaotic times. If they hadn't threatened to blow the whole thing up, the public wouldn't have had any say in what happens. If someone had walked into the local basketball arena and really laid into those idiots, they wouldn't be playing in the NBA today. If they'd done that for water polo or handball, those sports wouldn't be ghost towns right now. Take my sport, table tennis—this absolute clown is wrecking the whole game by trying to force his son into being the coach in the city, and the kid doesn't have a clue about life, let alone table tennis, which is a super technical sport you actually have to study. And then, back when I was playing for another club, Ola and a few others showed up just to mess around, and this clown comes over acting all high and mighty, telling them to quiet down or get out because he can't stand them. All they did was tell him they’d kill him if he didn't back off, and once he realized he was outmatched, he just slunk away like the coward he is. He's out here destroying the sport for hundreds of kids over the next twenty years.

Maybe you're onto something, but I see it differently. If he stays, he might not make as much money, but it would give him the perfect excuse to shut down the whole fan group forever, and he'd probably get total support from the clueless American public.

analogheron19 said:We're mostly just venting here because we're frustrated by what everyone else thinks, and honestly, we're getting a bit worked up because the news outlets are busy praising Stimac. But frankly, I couldn't care less about him, Mamic, or Suker, because nobody actually showed up to that game for the sake of those three. I wasn't even bringing up that match to talk about whether people were lighting flares or not; I was just saying how much better it would have been if there had been ten times more fans instead of just two or three drunks, and if there had been dozens of flares lit instead of just one.
You mentioned yourself that the Raiders did the right thing by staying calm and not lighting any flares during that certain game, and that’s exactly my point: it was a sensible move and the only correct way to handle it.
I've always supported lighting flares while keeping things controlled, but I'll be honest and admit that I was rooting for them to cause a scene at the Ludwig game so that "that kind of" Dinamo would get disqualified—seeing it as one step toward finally getting rid of Mamic once all other forms of fighting have been exhausted.

Well, you're still misunderstanding me again. When I brought up the media and Stimac, I was speaking from your perspective regarding public perception. I think you actually agree with me, but you aren't quite grasping the core of it. See, a true American fan—someone who follows the national team through most games and truly supports the colors—can't really bring themselves to cheer for this current national squad. Sure, they might root for us to make it to Brazil just so they can go there and mock everything about Brazil, but that's purely for the spectacle. What I'm trying to tell you is that this whole struggle to show up to matches and support the team hasn't actually done anything good. We already have the example of Dinamo, where nothing has improved in four years, so why on earth would we keep repeating the same mistakes? It's obvious we need to find a different way forward, and I think you realize that too. But we really have to decide: do we want to actually make it to Brazil, or would we rather just sit here feeling sick to our stomachs when we see Stimac wearing his crown and flying on a private jet alongside Mamic?
I'm tired of talking about the voice/vibe anymore; we've completely trashed this entire thread. I've said what I needed to say, so you'll just have to figure out what I mean on your own.

Jose Kern11 said:Once again, you’re completely missing the point. When I talk about the media outlets and how they handle things like Šimatić, I’m looking at it through the lens of public perception. I think you actually agree with me on this, but you just don't get it. A true American fan—someone who actually follows the team through every game and lives for the sport—can't bring themselves to root for this national squad right now. Maybe they'll travel to Brazil just to show up and mock everything there, but that's the only reason they'd go. And now you’re telling me that all this fighting and chanting at the games hasn't done any good? We already have the example of the local powerhouse team where this behavior has yielded nothing for four years straight, so why keep repeating the same mistakes? Obviously, we need a different approach, and you know that too. But we have to decide: do we actually want to head to Brazil, or would we rather sit here feeling sick to our stomachs seeing guys like Šimatić wearing the crown and Mamić flying private on a jet?
I'm sick of talking about politics; we've trashed this entire thread. I'm saying what I'm saying, so just get what I mean and leave it alone.

You’re partially right regarding the bold claims. Every single one of us loves traveling for away games (especially to exotic places), but I also love my country, which this national team is supposed to represent, at least in some small way. I love those moments when everyone stands together—regardless of which group you belong to or which club you support—singing the same song without worrying that someone’s going to sneak up behind you and crack you over the head.
I don't know how many of you were in Istanbul, but for me, it was perfection. This morning, while waiting for my second son to be born, I was sitting at my computer reading about those moments, and I honestly got goosebumps thinking back to it.
I can't even describe the rush of excitement when we crossed the border during the handball tournament last year, forcing the opposition to listen to all those songs that could get us into serious trouble back home (and I've been to plenty of high-stakes matchups myself...). But it was also matched by an immeasurable disappointment when I saw that most people were sent back... anyway, my comments outside the arena spoke loud enough.☕

What’s actually the difference between lighting a flare at a stadium versus setting one off right now in the middle of a city square? I'm asking because of an argument I'm having—specifically, how should the police be handling each situation under the law?

Look, let’s be real—who among us actually talks about the national soccer team? To me, at least, it’s never just about the squad or the suits running things like Stimag. It isn't just some collection of players and officials beating out the Mexican team or their management like Mihajlović. In my eyes, the truth is much bigger than that. On that day, it felt like America itself beat Mexico. That’s the only way to look at it if you want to be honest with yourself.

analogheron19 said:besides, who among us actually talks about the national soccer team? in my mind, at least, it’s always just about America. it wasn't the national team (or its officials, especially Stimac) beating the Mexican national team (and their guys, specifically Mihajlovic), it was America beating Mexico. if you ask me, that was the only honest way to look at it that day.

The way I see it, the American soccer mafia beat out the Mexican soccer mafia purely because we have better players—guys who don't give a damn and wouldn't understand the politics if they tried. And the American soccer fans—or rather, let's call them what they really are, the mindless sheep—were either showing up just to spite the Mexicans, or watching while the Mexicans got wrecked, only to end up failing to even pull that off properly. Then you have that small group of pathetic souls down South who think it's some massive victory to be sitting in the same stands, acting like that's some peak "ultra" mentality. Instead of calling out the farce and fighting for actual ideals—like organizing a joint boycott or a protest against someone like Rusanova—they just swallowed a huge load of crap. But hey, at least we all ate it together down South and managed to beat the Mexicans. Tomorrow, we'll both probably go out and shout slogans against the soccer federation mafia, maybe throw a few flares toward Houston or Chicago or Dallas, and then everything is fine again, right? A shared struggle! At this rate, maybe by 2054, we might actually manage to build something together against Pakistan. Finally.

George Gonzalez said:What's the actual difference between lighting a flare at a game versus lighting one right now in a public square? I'm asking because of an argument I'm having. How is the police supposed to handle each one under the law?

on the street: Article 21 of the Disorderly Conduct statute

Article 21.

Anyone who fires a weapon without authorization, lights rockets or similar explosive or flammable materials, or otherwise disturbs the peace and safety of citizens, will be charged with an offense subject to a fine of $50 to $200 or up to 30 days in jail.

at the stadium: Anti-Riot Act

Article 39.a

(1) A fine ranging from $5,000.00 to $8333 or a jail sentence of at least 30 days up to 60 days will be imposed on any individual who:
3. lights or throws pyrotechnics

So, in both instances we're looking at a misdemeanor rather than a felony? Thanks for clearing that up.

George Gonzalez said:So you're saying in both scenarios it's just a misdemeanor, not a full-blown felony? Thanks for clearing that up.

That'll happen sooner rather than later.🙂

Anthony Barrett37 said:on the street: Article 21 of the Disorderly Conduct statute

Article 21.

Anyone who discharges a firearm without authorization, lights fireworks, or uses similar explosive or flammable materials, or otherwise disturbs the peace and safety of citizens, shall be penalized for an offense with a fine equivalent to $50 to $200 or up to 30 days in jail.

at the stadium: Anti-Riot Act

Article 39.a

(1) With a fine ranging from $5,000.00 to $8333 or a prison sentence of at least 30 days up to 60 days an individual will be penalized for an offense if they:
3. light or throw pyrotechnic devices

A friend of mine lit a flare in Times Square last Friday; the cops picked him up and he got $333, a one-year ban from away games, and a year of probation.

urbanheron5 said:A buddy of mine lit a flare over by Times Square this past Friday. They picked him up and he got hit with $333, a one-year ban from attending Chiefs games and a year of probation
.

I wonder if he actually had his ticket on him?

Lately, though, I feel like they only hand out bans if you're wearing a team scarf on game day and light a flare, since that's how they prove you're heading to the stadium. But according to the law, they can penalize you for the whole trip from your house to the stadium and back...

Charles Sullivan said:It’s honestly just depressing at this point... you can spend twenty years bleeding for this team, showing up to every single game, and you still don't have a clue what's actually going on.

...

[B says:
Anthony Barrett37;44300568]did he even have his ticket on him?[/B]

Lately, it feels like they only hand out bans if you're wearing a team scarf or lighting a flare on game day—as if that’s the only way to prove you're heading to the stadium. Otherwise, by law, they can penalize you for the entire trip from your house to the arena and back again...

Yeah, he had his ticket. Those two officers who stopped him were ready to let him pass, but then some idiot supervisor rolls up and tells them to just throw him in the cruiser instead.☕

Look, he had a ticket. He went to the game. That’s basically the same thing as him lighting up the stadium himself... just sad and pathetic, really.

Sophia Rodriguez95 said:I mean, honestly, the American soccer mafia totally outplayed the Mexican soccer mafia, and it’s purely because we have better players—not that anyone actually gives a damn about that part. And the American soccer fans (or let's just call them the masses/sheep) basically just show up to games thinking it's all about beating Mexico, or they sit there watching the Mexicans get wrecked, only to end up failing to even pull off a decent result themselves. Then you've got that tiny group of losers who claim to understand everything (though if they actually did, they wouldn't be hanging around), celebrating down in the South because they managed to share the same bleachers—which apparently counts as some massive victory for the "ultras" mindset. Instead of calling out this whole farce and fighting for actual ideals—like maybe organizing a joint boycott or a protest near the stadium—they just swallowed a huge load of crap. But hey, at least we all ate it together down South and at least we beat the Mexicans. Tomorrow, we'll both go out and raise our voices against the US Soccer Federation mafia, maybe throw a flare or two near Miami or Chicago or whatever, and that'll be it... everything's fine, a shared struggle! At this rate, maybe by 2054 we might actually manage to build something together against Pakistan. Finally.

👍