Singapore Grand Prix - Sep 25, 2011

Frank Collins85 said:So, did they really just go ahead and explain the other day how Mark Webber is merely a second-tier driver?

Compared to Vettel, he just isn't on that level. Vettel is still raw, which is why Webber managed to stay somewhat relevant last year. This year, he's not even close, and next year the gap will only widen. I don't get why people find this surprising. Webber didn't just show up yesterday to be hailed as some massive talent. If his achievements were any greater, he wouldn't have spent his career in teams like the ones he's been in. Let's not forget, he's been at Red Bull since they were just starting to become decent.

Michael Lee4 said:Neither Lewis Hamilton nor Jenson Button are going anywhere... at least not while those other two teams are this dialed in. Vettel isn't moving an inch anytime soon, unless maybe Alonso tells the Italians off and they go hunting for a new speedster.

As for the McLaren drivers not squeezing everything out of the car... I won't even go there. Qualifying and the first five laps in Singapore made that obvious. The only thing I don't get is why Webber can't find that same pace; I'm convinced their cars aren't even identical.

Well, obviously the cars aren't the same

Of course the mechanics are putting more effort into Vettel's car, working on it more, and he’s getting the better parts—(just look back at Silverstone last year, when they swapped the front wing from Webber's car onto Vettel's without him even knowing, leaving Webber with the older, inferior one)

Which is understandable, really... after all, Vettel is their lead driver, a two-time World Champion, his face is plastered on all the Red Bull promotional shots and advertisements, his name is on the merchandise... it's all quite predictable...

cosmichawk12 said:Well, obviously the cars aren't the same

Of course the mechanics are putting more effort into Vettel's car, working on it more, and he’s getting the better parts—(just look back at Silverstone last year, when they swapped the front wing from Webber's car onto Vettel's without him even knowing, leaving Webber with the older, inferior one)

Which is understandable, really... after all, Vettel is their lead driver, a two-time World Champion, his face is plastered on all the Red Bull promotional shots and advertisements, his name is on the merchandise... it's all quite predictable...

Exactly. On top of that, he almost certainly took a hit to his confidence after last season, plus Vettel himself seems to be driving better than before... though, in my opinion, the gap remains massive. Last year, Webber was essentially outclassing him for nearly the entire season, yet suddenly, that difference has vanished. There were even rumors floating around that their car setups were being tuned differently, and Vettel has clearly adapted much better to the new tire compounds.

Then again, Webber just doesn't have the caliber to have top-tier teams fighting over him, so he chooses to stay with Red Bull Racing. It’s blindingly obvious, though, that the entire team is firmly on Vettel's side, meaning Webber won't achieve anything better than second place—whether we are looking at individual races or the championship standings as a whole.

Mind you, there is always that slim hope that Seb might break a leg, much like what happened in the Forest, which would leave him to fight his way back through pure grit to likely become the World Champion.

cosmichawk12 said:Well, obviously the cars aren't the same

Of course the mechanics are putting more effort into Vettel's car, working on it more, and he’s getting the better parts—(just look back at Silverstone last year, when they swapped the front wing from Webber's car onto Vettel's without him even knowing, leaving Webber with the older, inferior one)

Which is understandable, really... after all, Vettel is their lead driver, a two-time World Champion, his face is plastered on all the Red Bull promotional shots and advertisements, his name is on the merchandise... it's all quite predictable...

Everything checks out, but let's be real—Webber still has that much bigger star power..😁
I actually think that’s what Vettel is missing—that certain "X factor."🤷
It feels like he doesn't quite have that magnetic quality that draws the crowds in the way some other drivers do..
☕That said, I can't deny he's a fantastic driver..

Michael Lee4 said:I think Jenson Button is smart enough to realize that jumping to any other top-tier team means accepting a supporting role. He doesn't have to deal with that here—or if there were hints of it before, they’re definitely gone now.

The only real question is how much longer he stays in Formula 1 while still having a shot at the title. Nothing else matters to him anymore; he’s already been a champion, and now his only motivation is winning another one (which, as we can see, is going to be a massive uphill battle). Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if he looks into racing in other classes like GT soon... he’d likely get McLaren's backing there and could actually contend for titles again...

If they don't come up with something to make Red Bull less dominant quickly, next season is just going to be a total snooze fest. People only needed one Schumacher; we don't need another one like him. 🙄

Regardless of what Red Bull does, if the McLaren leadership actually had some sense and treated Button as their number one driver this season, he’d still be right in the title hunt. The gap would probably only be about 50 or 60 points. It's just stupid how they keep pushing Lewis Hamilton, who basically sabotages his own title chances by the end of the season anyway.

Even if Button doesn't "need" anyone, he needs to stay at McLaren and become the clear number one. Hopefully, even Watkins realizes that's the smarter move now.

Hamilton to Ferrari 😈

stormybadger8 said:Regardless of what Red Bull does, if the McLaren leadership actually had some sense and treated Button as their number one driver this season, he’d still be right in the title hunt. The gap would probably only be about 50 or 60 points. It's just stupid how they keep pushing Lewis Hamilton, who basically sabotages his own title chances by the end of the season anyway.

Even if Button doesn't "need" anyone, he needs to stay at McLaren and become the clear number one. Hopefully, even Watkins realizes that's the smarter move now.

Hamilton to Ferrari 😈

God willing, he moves to Red Bull once Webber leaves.😈

stormybadger8 said:Regardless of what Red Bull does, if the McLaren leadership actually had some sense and treated Button as their number one driver this season, he’d still be right in the title hunt. The gap would probably only be about 50 or 60 points. It's just stupid how they keep pushing Lewis Hamilton, who basically sabotages his own title chances by the end of the season anyway.

Even if Button doesn't "need" anyone, he needs to stay at McLaren and become the clear number one. Hopefully, even Watkins realizes that's the smarter move now.

Hamilton to Ferrari 😈

If it were really that simple, Webber could have locked up the championship much earlier last year instead of waiting until the final race to see how some random Russian driver performed.☕

nimblesurfer17 said:Everything checks out, but let's be real—Webber still has that much bigger star power..😁
I actually think that’s what Vettel is missing—that certain "X factor."🤷
It feels like he doesn't quite have that magnetic quality that draws the crowds in the way some other drivers do..
☕That said, I can't deny he's a fantastic driver..

like someone already pointed out somewhere, he has all the charisma of a frozen squid...😁

so, basically none at all...

Michael Lee4 said:If it were really that simple, Webber could have locked up the championship much earlier last year instead of waiting until the final race to see how some random Russian driver performed.☕

Personally, I'm convinced that Webber—even if he wasn't quite a top-tier driver—would have taken the championship last year if he actually had the full support of his own team behind him...

That’s what I’m saying... now our buddy TBF1D is going to bring out the heavy artillery because we totally 🤣
got wrecked.

has a finger 😬



oops... my bad 😁

Michael Lee4 said:If it were really that simple, Webber could have locked up the championship much earlier last year instead of waiting until the final race to see how some random Russian driver performed.☕

😕

Man... what I meant was that Mark Webber could have snatched that title right then and there, instead of us having to sit around waiting until the final race to see if everything falls into place for Vettel to grab it.

Michael Lee4 said:Man... what I meant was that Mark Webber could have snatched that title right then and there, instead of us having to sit around waiting until the final race to see if everything falls into place for Vettel to grab it.

True, but Dietrich didn't see it going down that way... and he’s still pulling the strings behind the scenes, something Mark knows all too well.

steelmaker83 said:True, but Dietrich didn't see it going down that way... and he’s still pulling the strings behind the scenes, something Mark knows all too well.

I get it, I really do... I was just replying to stormybadger8 regarding those stories about Jenson being the lead driver and how they pushed Hamilton out of McLaren.🙂

Regardless, even if everyone labeled Jenson the number one driver and he didn't have that trophy under his belt, nothing changes. Who could actually catch those aliens? 14 races, 9 wins, 13 podiums. His worst result was 4th. Let's be real.🤣 If he doesn't crash one of them out before the finish, nobody stands a chance of passing him; they'd have to screw up big time to even get close.😁

stormybadger8 said:Regardless of what Red Bull does, if the McLaren leadership actually had some sense and treated Button as their number one driver this season, he’d still be right in the title hunt. The gap would probably only be about 50 or 60 points. It's just stupid how they keep pushing Lewis Hamilton, who basically sabotages his own title chances by the end of the season anyway.

Even if Button doesn't "need" anyone, he needs to stay at McLaren and become the clear number one. Hopefully, even Watkins realizes that's the smarter move now.

Hamilton to Ferrari 😈

Actually, looking back on it, I'm not sure I follow the logic here...

Australia - a mess at the start followed by a drive-through (finished 6th)
Malaysia - really solid driving (though while Ham struggled with tires, he only managed two sets of softs plus a tactical blunder)
China - he pitted whenever he felt like it since Ham was right behind him; later he admitted he wasn't quite fast enough with the light car setup
Turkey - bad strategy
Spain - a messy start
Monaco - issues with the SC and the red flag
Canada - a great win
Valencia - the McLaren just wasn't fast enough, ended up 6th
United Kingdom - pit lane disaster
Germany - hydraulic issues
Canada - a win
Belgium - qualifying went south plus damage from the start
Italy - strong drive for 2nd place
Singapore - another good drive for 2nd

So now... the only time I see them favoring Hamilton is during qualifying in Monza (which sounds crazy, since we don't really know what happened there).

The point gap exists because of various unlucky breaks, the McLaren being slow in certain spots, and the fact that he didn't always push when it mattered. 🙂

So, maybe try to explain yourself if there's actually anything to it. 😬

stormybadger8 said:Regardless of what Red Bull does, if the McLaren leadership actually had some sense and treated Button as their number one driver this season, he’d still be right in the title hunt. The gap would probably only be about 50 or 60 points. It's just stupid how they keep pushing Lewis Hamilton, who basically sabotages his own title chances by the end of the season anyway.

Even if Button doesn't "need" anyone, he needs to stay at McLaren and become the clear number one. Hopefully, even Watkins realizes that's the smarter move now.

Hamilton to Ferrari 😈

Button doesn't just win points; he collects them.

A lead driver like that isn't someone you want to lose.

Michael Lee4 said:If it were really that simple, Webber could have locked up the championship much earlier last year instead of waiting until the final race to see how some random Russian driver performed.☕

If he had been able to win it back then, he would've won it. Period. ☕

He messed up two races straight. Seriously, don't even try to convince me that Red Bull is the reason he failed in Europe or Korea. 🤦

Michael Lee4 said:I get it, I really do... I was just replying to stormybadger8 regarding those stories about Jenson being the lead driver and how they pushed Hamilton out of McLaren.🙂

Regardless, even if everyone labeled Jenson the number one driver and he didn't have that trophy under his belt, nothing changes. Who could actually catch those aliens? 14 races, 9 wins, 13 podiums. His worst result was 4th. Let's be real.🤣 If he doesn't crash one of them out before the finish, nobody stands a chance of passing him; they'd have to screw up big time to even get close.😁

Nobody was pushing Hamilton out. That poor guy would've ended up in an even worse team anyway, just like Alonso did.

I’d bet money that Hamilton would still be in a McLaren by 2013.

stormybadger8 said:If he had been able to win it back then, he would've won it. Period. ☕

He messed up two races straight. Seriously, don't even try to convince me that Red Bull is the reason he failed in Europe or Korea. 🤦

With that kind of team support, it should've been easy... obviously, it's his own fault. ☕

Michael Lee4 said:With that kind of team support, it should've been easy... obviously, it's his own fault. ☕

So what was the team actually supposed to do?🤣

Throw a bazooka at Kovalinen so Webber wouldn't slam into him? Or bring in an excavator to tear down the wall so he wouldn't hit that either? What specifically?🙄

He had a massive opportunity and completely blew it with his own mistakes. What more could the team have done besides giving him the best car and a shot at the title? Maybe if Webber had missed just one race to let Vettel slip up this year or last, he might have won the championship. But no, instead they burned him in Turkey, and management didn't even bother to bail him out after that.

I don't recall many instances where some Red Bull mechanic forgot to tighten a bolt on Webber's wheel.

Webber had the chance of a lifetime because Vettel made tons of mistakes, plus he dealt with a mountain of car failures. If Webber had been the one having those issues, everyone would be screaming about Red Bull sabotaging him. Based on everything we saw last year, people would've claimed Vettel was the one lacking support since his car broke down way more than Webber's did.☕