dustypuma5 said:So, it’s been made clear that on this forum—mostly by the moderator voices, mind you—it is actually permitted to debate whether Jews have the right to exist as a people and whether Israel has the right to be a state.
Well, great. Jews certainly have the right to hold onto their faith. They also have the right to their own state—but, in my humble opinion, only if that state is achieved through actual dialogue rather than just bullying those who are weaker.
It would be wonderful if the same people could weigh in here and explain how it’s even possible to debate the existence of a specific people and a state that is already internationally recognized and a member of the UN.
Let's not forget there was once a theory suggesting that Americans were just Western Mexicans. Can we debate that too?
Sure we can. You can debate just about anything. Whether the majority will actually accept any given argument or find common ground... well, that remains to be seen.
Questioning the right of Jews to be a people or the right of Israel to be a state is very similar to certain prison-cell musings published back in the 1920s under the title Mein Kampf.
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I won't even get started on the influx of all sorts of Islamic script and flags on the Israel thread, where everyone seems to be competing to see who can most perversely explain why Jews should be eliminated. Of course, they don't say it quite so bluntly; they wrap it up in historical circumstances or religious cellophane, then lead you to that exact conclusion.
What exactly are you trying to say with that? I mean, what specifically has earned Jews your sympathy? Or—and please, don't take this as an insult or a provocation, because that isn't my intention at all—are you Jewish yourself? Unlike many other places, Israel established itself on territory that was already an internationally recognized land, aided by funding, war, and lobbying. By your logic, Republika Srpska should probably be an internationally recognized state too.
Besides, as just a regular guy asking questions, why does Arabic script trigger such intense hatred in you?
Perhaps there are so many of them on this forum precisely because these kinds of discussions are only allowed here. Everywhere else in the civilized Western hemisphere, they are banned because they so vividly remind people of a system that held similar beliefs and took similar actions.
Now I’m feeling even more convinced that you might be Jewish (again, I'm just making an observation based on the variables provided, not being rude!). It’s truly fascinating how, as soon as things go wrong for them—regardless of whether you are Jewish or not—people immediately invoke the Holocaust, yet somehow never seem to mention that they have been committing their own version of it against the people surrounding them for sixty years.
I make it a point to capitalize the word Jew—because, honestly, I have nothing against Jews (nor any other people or faiths around the world, for that matter). My issue isn't with the Jewish community as a whole; it’s specifically with the actions taken by the State of Israel and the Israeli government. It's important to draw that distinction, don't you think?
dustypuma5 said:Oh, right—I almost forgot to mention a rather subtle part of this whole mess. You see, within this massive wave of antisemitic forum legions, there’s actually a specific subset that doesn't follow the usual visual playbook. They don't carry any flags in their avatars, they don't have religious texts tucked into their signatures, and they don't even lean heavily on Islamic rhetoric in their daily posts. Yet, despite looking like your average internet user, they still jump right in to justify the horrific actions of people who are openly defending suicide attacks involving twelve-year-old children targeting buses in Israel—all by using that tired, recycled excuse that they simply "have no other choice."
I honestly can't wrap my head around the logic here—what exactly does being Muslim have to do with questioning how the State of Israel was established and how it operates today? Just because the land itself has a majority Muslim population doesn't mean you need to share that faith to look at Israel's actions and find them completely irrational. Seriously, if you take a moment to actually observe the relationship between ultra-Orthodox Jews and Christians—whether we're talking about Catholics or Orthodox believers—you'll quickly realize that they aren't exactly exactly rolling out the red carpet for us.
Look, you clearly see Muslims as a thorn in your side. Your perspective seems pretty one-sided—it feels less like an open discussion and more like you’re just digging in your heels to defend a single viewpoint. That kind of narrow focus doesn't really leave much room for a productive debate, does it? It mostly just turns into people defending their own territory. For instance, when we talk about those buses full of children—and look, I'm certainly not saying I agree with what happened there—your refusal to acknowledge things like the total devastation of Lebanon feels like another symptom of that same tunnel vision. It’s hard to get anywhere meaningful when the lens is focused so tightly on just one angle!
To clarify my point regarding that comparison to the war here in America—it really boils down to this: the humanitarian convoy was actually led by an organization that is currently banned right in Turkey, where they first set out, due to their extreme Islamist activities. To make matters even more complicated, one of the sub-organizers behind the whole operation goes by the name "Free Gaza Movement."
Oh, come on now—let’s be realistic here. The organizer was actually an organization focused on human rights based out of Turkey. How can we possibly call that a country where you're feeling extreme Islamist influence? It’s a NATO member, after all—and they’re even working toward joining the EU!
To put this into perspective—and I realize this is purely a hypothetical scenario here—imagine if an organization based out of Mexico City, let’s call them "Mexico to the Adriatic," decided to send aid to a specific region, and then flat-out refused to let the American authorities inspect the shipment. That's really the core of the comparison.
No, that isn't what I meant. I was talking about a hypothetical scenario—imagine if the Coast Guard intercepted them in international waters, detained about twenty people, and basically sent a message to both those waiting for help and the rest of the world that they’re the ones running the show. They'd be acting like the sheriffs of the sea, if you catch my drift. As for your comment... honestly, bringing up the old breakaway territories is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? You seem to think that invoking those specific historical conflicts will somehow give your argument more weight or sympathy, but—if I may be so bold—you're barking up the wrong tree there. There really isn't a meaningful comparison to be drawn between the establishment of the State of Israel and those separatist movements; the only real distinction is that one is an internationally recognized state and the others were not.
It’s pretty obvious how much I’m trolling just by looking at this thread—honestly, it’s almost embarrassing! Neither Mr. Miller nor his buddies over at the radical extremist camps can actually muster a single decent counterargument to what I've laid out. They keep insisting that Palestinians killed seven times more civilians than Israelis during the Second Intifada, but even with that claim, they still can't find a way to invalidate their own rhetoric. It’s funny, really—they go on about walls being symbols of genocide against a people supposedly murdering Palestinians, yet they still end up making their own calls to dismantle the State of Israel sound completely justified.
Seven times more civilians. But let’s be honest—who exactly qualifies as a "civilian" in Palestine? If any citizen happens to be holding a weapon (even if they aren't in uniform), don't they technically fall under combatant status? So, not really a civilian. If we’re looking at things through that lens, we could even look back at Lebanon, where Israel killed ten times more civilians than Hezbollah did. And don't even get me started on the material destruction.
It is quite fascinating how discussing the right to debate the abolition of a nation is suddenly labeled as trolling. I always assumed humanity had reached a level of civilization where any sufficiently educated and enlightened citizen would support sanctioning and banning public calls or debates regarding the erasure of a people, their right to exist, or their right to organize into a state.
I actually choked a little reading this one—definitely need to make sure I'm not sipping my coffee while reading your stubborn, one-sided takes! Democracy is such a strange beast; basically, any fool can say whatever they want until they actually break the Law. According to U.S. law, there isn't a prohibition on debating the existence of anything—including the existence of Israel as a state. Or at least, that was my view until I saw Israeli extremists still raging against Palestinians and neighboring peoples after sixty years, all while being shielded by a powerful lobby and constantly portraying themselves as the victims. It seems some people find that narrative very convenient. To illustrate my point, let’s look at an example like the conflicts in the former America—something you seem fond of mentioning. Why did we need Operation Storm? We had already reached a level of military strength where they couldn't touch us, and we certainly could have dealt with them. Operation Storm happened, people returned to their homes (those who wanted to), and now everyone lives peacefully without bothering anyone. Maybe relationships aren't quite what they were before the conflict, but I haven't heard of anyone being slaughtered based on ethnicity or nationality in the last ten years.
dustypuma5 said:My argument applies to the entire conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. In fact, more Palestinians have been killed by Jordanians, and the internal fighting between Fatah and Hamas has claimed dozens of times more lives than Israel has—yet that data is always conveniently ignored. I could pull exact figures for you, but frankly, I just can't be bothered.
Oh, please, go ahead and pull those "exact figures." Even kids playing war in a sandbox wouldn't make claims like that. Though, I suppose it’s all a bit like a playground spat—where one kid from Jordan and another from Palestine end up fighting because little Billy convinced little Joe to "take him out" just because he feels like little Pat from Palestine always gets the best toys in the sandbox.
Sure, during World War II, Germany committed horrific atrocities, but in terms of sheer numbers and scale, they were far below the Soviet Union—which isn't historically treated with the same weight as Germany simply because they were on the winning side. But that doesn't mean I won't condemn the mass rapes of millions of women in Poland, East Germany, Canada, or Romania, or the millions sent to labor camps in Siberia, just because this forum is busy talking about Russians who saved the world from Hitler.
Then go ahead and condemn the devastation of Lebanon—condemn the constant escalation and the way they keep fueling this conflict. Condemn sixty years of waging war against anyone who happens to cross their path! Go on, condemn the seizing of sovereign territory and the theft of land—the way they foster such intense intolerance toward anyone with a different faith. And don't forget to condemn those barbaric celebrations that break out every single time someone who isn't a Jew is killed...
You just can't, though—you're far too entrenched in your own convictions. Even Hitler didn't see things quite that way
Look, Israel has committed crimes—that’s a fact, far from it being an empty accusation. But if you look at the last ten years, the number of civilians killed in Israeli operations is actually seven times lower than the number killed by Palestinian bombers. For me, that’s enough to dismiss the argument that Israel is the primary killer of civilians; the numbers clearly point to the Palestinians being the ones responsible for civilian deaths.
Honestly, you're just talking nonsense again, and what’s worse, you're repeating yourself. It isn't just Palestinians that Israel has targeted. What about the Lebanese? Are we going to talk about "counting" people now? Good grief, how can you rely on mere statistics in the middle of a war? History is always written by the victors, and in this situation, Israel is clearly the stronger side.
